Kings of France may have been R1b-U106 after all (rather than G2a3b1)

Maciamo

Maciamo

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A new study by Larmuseau et al. (2013) from Leuven University in Belgium (the same team behind the Brabant Y-DNA Project) tested the Y-DNA of three living members of the House of Bourbon, one descending from Louis XIII of France and two from Philip V of Spain (himself a grandson of Louis XIV). They concluded that all three men share the same STR haplotype and belonged to haplogroup R1b-U106 (Z381* subclade), contradicting the earlier studies that identified the presumed remains of Henry IV and Louis XVI as members of haplogroup G2a. The published mtDNA sequence of Henry IV's presumed head also conflicted with the mtDNA of a series of relatives, bringing additional evidence that the head did not belong to the French monarch.

Note that R1b-Z381 is also the haplogroup of the House of Wettin, which includes the current Belgian royal family, and has included Kings Edward VII, George V, Edward VIII and George VI of the United Kingdom, the Kings of Portugal from 1853 to 1910, the Kings of Bulgaria from 1887 to 1946.

425px-Antoine-Fran%C3%A7ois_Callet_-_Louis_XVI%2C_roi_de_France_et_de_Navarre_%281754-1793%29%2C_rev%C3%AAtu_du_grand_costume_royal_en_1779_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg
 
Makes a lot more sense, for a Frankish lineage. Also, having three different test results is far more reliable than some blood-stained cloth dating from the French Revolution, when the entire country was ankle-deep in blood.

...On the other hand, what would be the odds of both the blood on the cloth and the alleged head of Henry IV giving G2a results?
 
What connects the House of Bourbon and the House of Wettin? I know almost nothing about Royalty in Europe but didn't different nations royalty inter marry a lot. It would be cool if they could find out what man all of the Royal Z381 somehow the direct like has to go back to a Germanic people. If they have the remains of a Royality like King Richard III(1452-1485) and the heart of King Richrad I(1157-1199) is in his Effigy couldn't DNA be taken.
 
Degredado said:
...On the other hand, what would be the odds of both the blood on the cloth and the alleged head of Henry IV giving G2a results?
Click to expand...

Yeah, this has me a tad confused. Did the two (cloth & head) truly match or not? If they did, is this then to be taken as coincidence?!

Don't know the language, but have heard the broadcast at radio1.be entitled "Koning Hendrik IV verliest opnieuw hoofd" questions at least one of the former "G" conclusions. Anyone know Dutch?
 
Degredado said:
Makes a lot more sense, for a Frankish lineage. Also, having three different test results is far more reliable than some blood-stained cloth dating from the French Revolution, when the entire country was ankle-deep in blood.

...On the other hand, what would be the odds of both the blood on the cloth and the alleged head of Henry IV giving G2a results?
Click to expand...

That is pretty amazing indeed that both the Louis XVI's presumed blood and Henry's presumed head belonged to G2a. However they didn't say that the STR values or deep subclades matched. The two teams were oddly fuzzy about the details.
 
Fire Haired said:
What connects the House of Bourbon and the House of Wettin?
Click to expand...

Nothing connects them in their patrilineal genealogy, except that both houses can trace back their earlies ancestor to the 10th century Frankish nobility. Anyway it isn't big news that Z381 should be Frankish since this subclade of R1b-U106 makes up 21% of all paternal lineages in Belgium and accounts for 85% of all Belgian R1b-U106.
 
According to Wikipedia:

"King Louis XVI of France from a genetic test on blood in a cloth purported to have been collected at his beheading and maintained in an ornate gourd decorated with French Revolution themes. Confirmation of this genetic profile requires testing of a known relative. The sample was tested at two laboratories with the same results.[39] The sample is most consistent with G2a3b1a samples and contains unusually high, rare values for markers DYS385B and DYS458 in this haplogroup G subgroup. Subsequent testing in 2012 on a mummified head, purportedly that of King Henri IV of France, revealed that typing of a limited number of Y-STR's showed a Y-Dna haplogroup of G2a. Reported researchers: "Five STR loci [from the sample taken from the head] match the alleles found in Louis XVI, while another locus shows an allele that is just one mutation step apart. Taking into consideration that the partial Y-chromosome profile is extremely rare in modern human databases, we concluded that both males could be paternally related."[40][41] The two French kings were separated by seven generations."

Puzzling.
 
Degredado said:
According to Wikipedia:

"King Louis XVI of France from a genetic test on blood in a cloth purported to have been collected at his beheading and maintained in an ornate gourd decorated with French Revolution themes. Confirmation of this genetic profile requires testing of a known relative. The sample was tested at two laboratories with the same results.[39] The sample is most consistent with G2a3b1a samples and contains unusually high, rare values for markers DYS385B and DYS458 in this haplogroup G subgroup. Subsequent testing in 2012 on a mummified head, purportedly that of King Henri IV of France, revealed that typing of a limited number of Y-STR's showed a Y-Dna haplogroup of G2a. Reported researchers: "Five STR loci [from the sample taken from the head] match the alleles found in Louis XVI, while another locus shows an allele that is just one mutation step apart. Taking into consideration that the partial Y-chromosome profile is extremely rare in modern human databases, we concluded that both males could be paternally related."[40][41] The two French kings were separated by seven generations."

Puzzling.
Click to expand...

Isn't the latest news that the Head of Henry IV is not from the Bourbon line ( or other way around)
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/10/131009130001.htm
 
Fire Haired said:
What connects the House of Bourbon and the House of Wettin? I know almost nothing about Royalty in Europe but didn't different nations royalty inter marry a lot. It would be cool if they could find out what man all of the Royal Z381 somehow the direct like has to go back to a Germanic people. If they have the remains of a Royality like King Richard III(1452-1485) and the heart of King Richrad I(1157-1199) is in his Effigy couldn't DNA be taken.
Click to expand...

house of Wettin is a saxon dynasty and house of Bourbon was a navaresse dynasty which became ( I'oc) french and later spanish.

Wettin was split by to brothers , albert which was house of Meissen and Ernest which is house of Saxony
 
Maciamo said:
Nothing connects them in their patrilineal genealogy, except that both houses can trace back their earlies ancestor to the 10th century Frankish nobility. Anyway it isn't big news that Z381 should be Frankish since this subclade of R1b-U106 makes up 21% of all paternal lineages in Belgium and accounts for 85% of all Belgian R1b-U106.
Click to expand...

I think it is pretty much settled then its Frankish.
 
Degredado said:
According to Wikipedia:

"King Louis XVI of France from a genetic test on blood in a cloth purported to have been collected at his beheading and maintained in an ornate gourd decorated with French Revolution themes. Confirmation of this genetic profile requires testing of a known relative. The sample was tested at two laboratories with the same results.[39] The sample is most consistent with G2a3b1a samples and contains unusually high, rare values for markers DYS385B and DYS458 in this haplogroup G subgroup. Subsequent testing in 2012 on a mummified head, purportedly that of King Henri IV of France, revealed that typing of a limited number of Y-STR's showed a Y-Dna haplogroup of G2a. Reported researchers: "Five STR loci [from the sample taken from the head] match the alleles found in Louis XVI, while another locus shows an allele that is just one mutation step apart. Taking into consideration that the partial Y-chromosome profile is extremely rare in modern human databases, we concluded that both males could be paternally related."[40][41] The two French kings were separated by seven generations."

Puzzling.
Click to expand...


What if these presumed descends of the French kings are not really of royal blood? Or what if Henry IV and Louis XVI who were separated for centuries are not paternally related at all?
 
Alan said:
What if these presumed descends of the French kings are not really of royal blood? Or what if Henry IV and Louis XVI who were separated for centuries are not paternally related at all?
Click to expand...

Henry IV (G2a?) lived in the 16th century and Louis XVI (G2a?) in the 18th century, while Louis XIII (R1b?), whose three presumed descendants were tested, lived in the 17th. So a non-paternity event would not make too much sense, chronologically. Unless Henry IV was not the real father of Louis XIII, and then the "legitimate" G2a lineage found its way back to the throne with Louis XIV or Louis XV... in that scenario, we would be looking at not one, but two - consecutive - non-paternity events. Pretty unlikely.
 
Update on Wettin Man Haplogroup

Maciamo,

We have done further testing on the Wettin Man Y-DNA sample:
It is R1b-U106 (Branch DF98). Technically, step by step, it is R1b-U106 > Z381 > Z156> Z305 > DF98.

I have updated the "Royal Haplogroup" tab on my webpage the-kings-son.com (as this is the location that is kept up to date with the latest developments on this topic).


Any chance you have any contacts with the people who did the Bourbon testing to see if they too could do a DF98 test as well?

Cheers,
Brad Michael Little
the-kings-son.com
 
Michael Little- we are also determined to be in the limited subclade found at FTDNA with you but no Little there
what is your tie in this list below
R1b-u106/ Z381>Z156>Z307/Z306/Z305/Z304+ (STRs suggest you test DF98, the group the Royal Windsors belong to)

as of now only 38 listed kits are here of the 2000+ in the U106 project Josef Sudasch my grandfather line is still a divider and no
direct matches interesting how the name Sudravskiy falls nearby though could another like the one below

1642 Samuel Blakeslee, 1624 to 1672, New Haven, CT 148788 Samuel Blakeslee, 1624 to 1672, New Haven, CT
99784 John Downie, b. 1774, Blantyre, Lanarkshire
57895 Nash Leslie Bess, b. 1819, Botetourt Co., VA (USA)
N10310 William Bess, b. 1776, Botetourt County, VA, USA
159318 Josef Sudasch 1790 -1850 Grosskrut, Austria R1b1a2a1a1a
13 23 14 10 12-14


12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 12 25


15 19 29 14-15-16-17 11 12 23-23 16 15 16


16 37-37 12 12 11 9 16-16 8 11 10 8


10 10 12 23-24 14 9 12 12 15 8 12


22 20 13 12 11 13 10 11 13 12

64019 William Barnwell or Barnhill, b.c. 1720, Ireland
134381 Shadrack Stephens, b.c. 1761, Wales/South Carolina
150038 Johann Christoph Sander, b. 1785 - d. 1847
N80201 Ceferino Quintero,Tenerife, Spain (Canary Islands)
100769 Ksaveriy Sudravskiy, b.1841, Kamyanets-Podilskyy
178396 Johann Georg Inniger, 1723, Schweighofen, Germany
136942 Mathias Geiger, 1850 (Wuertemburg) to 1915 (MS)
109129 Gideon Via 1731-1815 son John Via Sr. Virginia
2779 ??? Lockey, 12th century, Cambridge, England
242646 Richard Hill b.1780 and d. 1850, Yorkshire
299992 David Butler, b.c. 1748; d. aft. 1818
134903 John Butler, b. 1550, Braintree, Essex, England
64847 Mat. line:John Stephens Perry, b 1859 NY-d 1925 OK
1543 Robert Jarman, c1680 Maryland > son Robert Jr.
40641 Jacob Davis, b.c. 1775, NC/SC; d. 1842, Telfair Co
21623 John Lowry, b.c. 1804, VA
71473 William Howell, ca 1780-1836
44666 Maher
 
Lue May Suda,

It was due to my investigation in to the father of my Grandfather William James Shepherd, that was able to convince a known descendant and related relative of King George V to do a Y-DNA test.

Once the test results were in, I discovered there was another Y-DNA test result from a different King George V relative, thereby proving that the Wettin DNA signature and Haplogroup was confirmed. My website has more details, plus I have an associated facebook website which I update periodically, plus there is also a 200 page book with every detail re the entire story. I still continue my own new investigations re exploring other possible connections.

I suggest you join Charles Moore U-106 FTDNA Group or his U-106 Yahoo group if you wish make any more investigations re you own connection to the Wettin line.

I hope this helps you.

Regards,
Brad Michael Little
the-kings-son.com
 
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