Korea nonsense

[Anthro-inclined]

Don't take me wrong. I have a list of grievances to US or pure stupidity too. The point was that Anthro never said anything positive about US. The worse part is that the negatives he complains about exist only in conspiracy circles, or are looked at from his communistic point of view.
Conspiracy theories dominate in your understanding of global forces too, but at least you are aware of it.

If not US stand in protecting of western values, people like you and I, the free thinkers, libertarians and rebels were the first to die in Soviets gulags/concentration camps. I'm also pretty sure that personal computers and internet would be still a thing of distant future, together with free expressions. For god sake, even these days journalists are dying in Russia.

This thread isnt about stroking the US's you know what. Its about Koreas present situation, and it effect on us. The US takes a role in the present situation, as does the former Soviet Union, I feel a responsibilty to mention the negative impact of foreign powers on Korea, you can go on all day about how great the US is but imperialism is imperialism. Also about your point on the Soviets silencing free thinkers, the US did the same in Chile, they helped initiate the coup against the elected socialist government and install Pinochet, and what did he do, killed all those who opposed his unlawful rise to power including the outspoken folk singer Victor Hara and the poet Pablo Neruda. This is one example of a direct government action, not to mention the countless autrocities of US private companies abroad.

 

[hope]

No, I was pointing out a flaw in Lebrok's logic.

Please be aware that I'm not your typical American Imperialist, I'm a libertarian. I don't think our nation should patrol/control the globe-- where has this gotten us? Most of the world has a strong distaste for Americans and now we have an massively bloated internal governmental structure that Big Brother is having to do back flips to keep alive.

The drone reference was no joke... U.S. defense contractors have moved 30,000 from over-seas wars onto our our own territory to patrol our own people. The government has ordered 1.6 billion hollow point bullets for "target practice"-- which if you know about weaponry is a complete farce.

And I'm sure there are readers of this thread saying "He can say these things because the U.S. is so free". Wrong, the clamp down has started.

Some of us are too angry/frustrated/fed-up to look the other way. There's a bubbling sh@tstorm headed our way folks.

By the way, I've destroyed all my lethal force weapons... they will prove useless in this coming conflict. Forums like these are far more valuable in conveying a winning message.

And as a Libertarian you will no doubt feel others should have this liberty, free from oppressive governments?
Is this not the reason America has offered for many of her interventions?
Also I wonder at your description of the "typical" American Imperialist. Do you say the typical man on the typical American street wants political and economic authority over foreign countries? I was under the impression the typical American would prefer a return to a more "insular" existence, with their troops home from far off places.

As for the drones, with as you put it "most of the world" having a distaste for Americans, perhaps this is why 30,000 have been moved back from overseas. Homeland security? However I did recently read an article which said many new drones would be in private hands. Therefore, does the legislation on privacy not come into play here?

Yes, 1.6 billion hollow point bullets is a lot. In war this quantity would likely last years, I think. They are however, forbidden to be used in war by international laws, is this correct? Therefore such a large amount must indeed be for "training" purposes ? Do you think they are for a reason other than this and if so, what?
We all can sometimes feel frustrated by our governments, and no doubt there are a few shady deals and hand-shakes that occur, this is the way of politics unfortunately. Let us not be naive, but let us not like-wise be ever reading that which has no real proof of presence.
And yes, in some quarters America is somewhat disliked. In my opinion it is because of her strength. Would you rather live in a weak country and just hope to be liked?

 

[nordicwarrior]

And as a Libertarian you will no doubt feel others should have this liberty, free from oppressive governments?
Is this not the reason America has offered for many of her interventions?
Also I wonder at your description of the "typical" American Imperialist. Do you say the typical man on the typical American street wants political and economic authority over foreign countries? I was under the impression the typical American would prefer a return to a more "insular" existence, with their troops home from far off places.

As for the drones, with as you put it "most of the world" having a distaste for Americans, perhaps this is why 30,000 have been moved back from overseas. Homeland security? However I did recently read an article which said many new drones would be in private hands. Therefore, does the legislation on privacy not come into play here?

Yes, 1.6 billion hollow point bullets is a lot. In war this quantity would likely last years, I think. They are however, forbidden to be used in war by international laws, is this correct? Therefore such a large amount must indeed be for "training" purposes ? Do you think they are for a reason other than this and if so, what?
We all can sometimes feel frustrated by our governments, and no doubt there are a few shady deals and hand-shakes that occur, this is the way of politics unfortunately. Let us not be naive, but let us not like-wise be ever reading that which has no real proof of presence.
And yes, in some quarters America is somewhat disliked. In my opinion it is because of her strength. Would you rather live in a weak country and just hope to be liked?

Thank you for the thought provoking response, Hope. It is my opinion that a people get the government they deserve. Our nation had an incredible advantage over many others with our well-crafted Constitution, most are not so lucky. I feel for foreigners that are mistreated by autocrats or errant kings or whatever poor leadership they are ruled by... HOWEVER I don't think it is my responsibility to "free" them from tyranny. No man can really free another man. Freedom comes from within and it is earned not granted.

I don't think that U.S. citizens have to live in a weak country, but I do know that we shouldn't be the global police force anymore.

 

[ElHorsto]

Thank you for the thought provoking response, Hope. It is my opinion that a people get the government they deserve. Our nation had an incredible advantage over many others with our well-crafted Constitution, most are not so lucky. I feel for foreigners that are mistreated by autocrats or errant kings or whatever poor leadership they are ruled by... HOWEVER I don't think it is my responsibility to "free" them from tyranny. No man can really free another man. Freedom comes from within and it is earned not granted.

I don't know that we in the U.S. have to live in a weak country, but I don't think we need to be the global policeman anymore.

Completely agree. And values and cultures are diverse, especially definitions of "freedom". Communist or not, nobody should have cared about North Korea as long as they care about themselves only. But instead there are sanctions against NK already since the Korean War... arming is the response... weather satellite lauch... more sanctions...etc. Moral excuses should get out of fashion already...

 

[LeBrok]

Completely agree. And values and cultures are diverse, especially definitions of "freedom". Communist or not, nobody should have cared about North Korea as long as they care about themselves only. But instead there are sanctions against NK already since the Korean War... arming is the response... weather satellite lauch... more sanctions...etc. Moral excuses should get out of fashion already...

Are you saying that what is going on in NK is only their business, because they are an independent country?
Does it matter to you that direction of their future, social structure and economy is not, and wasn't, chosen democratically by people, but is set by murderous, psychopathic leaders?
Who the hell cares for these people... Obviously not us, us with full bellies, sitting in warm rooms on soft chairs, in front of computer, sending our thoughts to other free people around the globe. And off course we know that all of this NK hoopla is orchestrated by greedy defence companies wanting to make a lot of mulla selling us the ballistic missile shield...the Korea Nonsense...but they are not going to get us...

 

[ElHorsto]

Are you saying that what is going on in NK is only their business, because they are an independent country?
Does it matter to you that direction of their future, social structure and economy is not, and wasn't, chosen democratically by people, but is set by murderous, psychopathic leaders?

Do you believe, North Koreans want to be sanctioned or bombed by us or something? How can we know? Actually there is almost no information from inside North Korea. Do you have informations to share? I use to judge others based on sound information, not rumours.

Who the hell cares for these people... Obviously not us, us with full bellies, sitting in warm rooms on soft chairs, in front of computer, sending our thoughts to other free people around the globe. And off course we know that all of this NK hoopla is orchestrated by greedy defence companies wanting to make a lot of mulla selling us the ballistic missile shield...the Korea Nonsense...but they are not going to get us...

This works both ways:
It is very easy to sit in warm rooms on soft chairs, in front of computer, making hard decisions (sanctions, wars,..) for other peoples while feeling morally superior. WW2 survivors in europe did not even dare to consider new wars until recently.

No offense.

 

[Balder]

Personnally, I think the last thing North Korea's leadership wants is war. They know that their military is relying on outdated equipment and that they woulndn't stand the slightest chance in either a nuclear or a conventional war.

All this sabre rattling is nothing but a crazy extorsion scheme.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Are you saying that what is going on in NK is only their business, because they are an independent country?
Does it matter to you that direction of their future, social structure and economy is not, and wasn't, chosen democratically by people, but is set by murderous, psychopathic leaders?
Who the hell cares for these people... Obviously not us, us with full bellies, sitting in warm rooms on soft chairs, in front of computer, sending our thoughts to other free people around the globe. And off course we know that all of this NK hoopla is orchestrated by greedy defence companies wanting to make a lot of mulla selling us the ballistic missile shield...the Korea Nonsense...but they are not going to get us...

I don't think this episode is orchestrated by greedy defense contractors aiming for the ballistic shield contract.

If this is being artificially manipulated... it's by the banking elites that realize the global depression will force the masses to start looking more and more closely at who exactly caused and profitted from this enormous mess. Again, nobody is talking about Cypress right now.

And yes I'm sitting on a soft chair typing on a computer, and it would be far easier for me to ignore these ridiculous wars and rumors of wars-- unfortunately I can't do that. Did you see the photos of the eleven children killed in the last drone attack posted on Huffpo?

Drones are a tool for a leader that can't lead men effectively in battle. And none of the battles we are in are remotely justified right now.

**EDIT**
To clarify, the leader I'm referencing is not a General or Captain but the Commander of the Military. I don't even like to use his birth name, I call him Nimrod.

 

[Ruiy]

Yeah Anthro- we would all be Communist if the U.S. didn't intervene!

If we didn't intervene in the Korean War, our skies would be patrolled by drones, you would have to get felt up to fly anywhere on an airplane, there would be bold attempts to grab our guns, and the government would want to purchase all available ammo. We would have zero privacy on the internet and our doctors would be employees of the giant State.

Um, wait a minute...

In no way was the idea that I was trying to convey - although you say it jokingly - and believe me: I am not anti-USA, and much less I am an standard-bearer of comunism or something like that. But like in human relations, the nations, and the dominant impose their vision of the world and dip their hands where they can.




Enviado desde mi Samsung Móvil, usando Tapatalk 2.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Ruiy, I was pointing out the irony that while we've been obsessed about fighting strains of Communism over the globe, we've essentially morphed into a Communist (or least heavily Socialist) country.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

Ruiy, I was pointing out the irony that while we've been obsessed about fighting strains of Communism over the globe, we've essentially morphed into a Communist (or least heavily Socialist) country.

NW I wouldnt worry you guys are the farthest thing from socialism on the planet.

 

[nordicwarrior]

NW I wouldnt worry you guys are the farthest thing from socialism on the planet.

I know it doesn't seem plausible Anthro-, but we really have dipped into Socialism. I've heard several people from old Eastern Block countries talk about what they witnessed in their home nation is now happening here.

I don't know if those outside the U.S. are getting an accurate report of what going on in our formerly great country. Our alternative media is doing a better job of relating real life circumstances than the traditional media outlets. I'm sure there's a few Nimrod supporters that feel differently of course.

 

[Anthro-inclined]

I know it doesn't seem plausible Anthro-, but we really have dipped into Socialism. I've heard several people from old Eastern Block countries talk about what they happen to their home nation is now happening here.

I don't know if those outside the U.S. are getting an accurate report of what going on here. Our alternative media is doing a better job of relating real life circumstances than the traditional media outlets. I'm sure there's a few Nimrod supporters that feel differently of course.

these people you talked to, how old are they, countries in eastern Europe began the transition to a soviet puppet state shortly after WW2, so for somebody to be around talking to you about it, they would have to be like 70. Maybe they were talking about the reverse, or transition out of socialism, perhaps they are talking about the take over of the Oligarchs in many eastern european countries after the dissolving of the Soviet Union. This would make more sense.

 

[ElHorsto]

I think communism and fascism can look very similar during peace time, despite having opposing goals. Economic crisis always embrace such symptomps, more-or less. As for alternative media, Gerald Celente claims that technically the kind of bank-state merging is fascist by the definition of Mussolini, not socialist as commonly believed. On the other hand, the unwanted Obama health-care reform is probably socialist, as far as I can judge. It ts unwanted by the majority of US-people, as far as I understood.

 

[hope]

@ElHorsto How can we know if North Koreans want to be sanctioned or bombed? I would say it a pretty good bet to say, No I don`t think they do. After all does any-one want to be bombed? Are Korean people different in some way that they might relish being bombed?

As for having, as you state, no information from inside Korea, I do not agree. Have we not seen the many "shows" from North Korea of their military and weapons on a regular basis. Have we not seen the pictures of missiles on armoured carriers, rockets with boosters, medium range rockets etc pass by as Kim Jong-un looks on with approval ? Likewise have we not heard Kim Jong- un threaten to bomb the South..among other things ? This is information from inside Korea..is it not?
If you want information from the ordinary North Korean, that is a little harder to obtain [ a telling thing in itself perhaps?]. However it can be found. Stories regarding starving people and labour camps set up by the regime have leaked out. Now just recently, photos have been smuggled out and given to the Mirror which would indeed seem to show this.

As for new wars not being considered since WW2, I don`t think that is accurate . OTMH..Soviet War with Afghanistan, late 70s and it`s war with Georgia in 2008. Also Falklands War between Britain and Argentina 1982. And of course the Gulf War 1990 with U.S. leading 34 coalition nations there.
Unfortunately ElHorsto, war is, it seems often "considered".

 

[ElHorsto]

@ElHorsto How can we know if North Koreans want to be sanctioned or bombed? I would say it a pretty good bet to say, No I don`t think they do. After all does any-one want to be bombed? Are Korean people different in some way that they might relish being bombed?

Certainly not. But then I don't understand your point. How are the sactions of the past 50 years justified then?

As for having, as you state, no information from inside Korea, I do not agree. Have we not seen the many "shows" from North Korea of their military and weapons on a regular basis. Have we not seen the pictures of missiles on armoured carriers, rockets with boosters, medium range rockets etc pass by as Kim Jong il looks on with approval ? Likewise have we not heard Kim Jong il threaten to bomb the South..among other things ? This is information from inside Korea..is it not?

I don't see what does this information tell us exactly. That North Korea is suicidal and wants to conquer the world?

If you want information from the ordinary North Korean, that is a little harder to obtain [ a telling thing in itself perhaps?]. However it can be found. Stories regarding starving people and labour camps set up by the regime have leaked out. Now just recently, photos have been smuggled out and given to the Mirror which would indeed seem to show this.

Yes, there are actually great private videos on youtube. This is nothing like East and West Germany. A sudden regime change would result in severe psychological shocks for the population. They seem to live in a parallel universe, because the population has been squeezed between the regime and the UN policy. Even worse, I have the impression that most of the people honestly believe in their regime. The rope must be loosened, not tightened. It is ... questionable, to let a population starve just because we dislike their regime while sitting comfortably in warm chairs with full bellies (sorry for the sneaky reference ). If the regime recognizes that we do not care about them, they would eventually experience a smooth perestroika or at least not becoming a nuclear power, especially if they can buy and enjoy cool stuff made in South-Korea. But the tightening rope makes the population a hostage. If still no regime change happens, it is not our business. "Let's just trade with them" as Ron Paul said. Further I think, we westerners were once more ignorant about other cultures and mentalities when being interventionist. If such an extreme indoctrination like in North Korea seems impossible in our cultures, it does not imply that it isn't in others. It looks creepy to us, but this not relevant. Japan before industrialization was also extremely weird according to our standards. I'd prefer less interventionism and more calmness, pragmatism and perhaps even isolationism to some extent.

As for new wars not being considered since WW2, I don`t think that is accurate . OTMH..Soviet War with Afghanistan, late 70s and it`s war with Georgia in 2008. Also Falklands War between Britain and Argentina 1982. And of course the Gulf War 1990 with U.S. leading 34 coalition nations there.
Unfortunately ElHorsto, war is, it seems often "considered".

I don't think this is accurate.

1. I was talking about europeans only.
2. I was saying "until recently". I meant before the fall of the iron curtain 1989, sorry for not being more specific. The amount of wars obviously skyrocketed after that, which is exactly what I meant.
3. Before that, Afghanistan and Falkland are only two examples, clearly much less than later.
EDIT: But you are right in that there existed somebody who not only dared to think of but also to go into war.

 

[ElHorsto]

As for new wars not being considered since WW2, I don`t think that is accurate . OTMH..Soviet War with Afghanistan, late 70s and it`s war with Georgia in 2008. Also Falklands War between Britain and Argentina 1982. And of course the Gulf War 1990 with U.S. leading 34 coalition nations there.
Unfortunately ElHorsto, war is, it seems often "considered".

Perhaps I should add an explanation about what my point is: The generation which experienced the pain of war is the most war-averse today. But as more time in peace and welfare passed, the more the opinions have changed towards hawkish politics. But I can speak for Germans only.

 

[hope]

Certainly not. But then I don't understand your point.

Nor I.
But it was your point in the first place, not mine. When you asked if " we thought North Korea wanted sanctioned or bombed ..how can we tell?"
My reply was to this.

I don't see what does this information tell us exactly. That North Korea is suicidal and wants to conquer the world?

I hope it does not tell us this. However, again it was given as a response to your statement that little information comes out from North Korea.

A sudden regime change would result in severe psychological shocks for the population.

A regime change would need much adjustment. Severe psychological shock..I think is a little exaggerated. But is this what we speaking of at the moment?

It is ... questionable, to let a population starve just because we dislike their regime while sitting comfortably in warm chairs with full bellies (sorry for the sneaky reference ).

I think it is ...questionable to let a population starve at any time, if we are in a position to help. I take no offence at this point of having "full stomachs". In fact I think we should more often consider those without full stomachs and I say this plainly without a "wink" or apology.

If the regime recognizes that we do not care about them, they would eventually experience a smooth perestroika or at least not becoming a nuclear power, especially if they can buy and enjoy cool stuff made in South-Korea.

Yes, but the regime seems to be more interested in bombing South Korea rather than buying any "cool" stuff it makes.

Further I think, we westerners were once more ignorant about other cultures and mentalities when being interventionist.

I may have misunderstood this point. Are you are saying we are ignorant of other cultures?

I'd prefer less interventionism and more calmness

Yes, well I think we would all like that ElHorsto. Unfortunately Kim Jong-uns constant war rhetoric does nothing to help it.

 

[hope]

Perhaps I should add an explanation about what my point is: The generation which experienced the pain of war is the most war-averse today. But as more time in peace and welfare passed, the more the opinions have changed towards hawkish politics. But I can speak for Germans only.

I take your point ElHorsto, yet I do not agree completely with it.
I do not disagree merely for sake of debate but rather through observation. If we take into account some of the latest wars and indeed civil wars that have occurred or are occurring it is not obvious to me that either the generation who fought or the youth that grew up in them are so much effected as to wish to not let them re-occur. I honestly wish it were not so.:sad-2:

 

[ElHorsto]

Nor I.
But it was your point in the first place, not mine. When you asked if " we thought North Korea wanted sanctioned or bombed ..how can we tell?"
My reply was to this.

I think you misunderstood me because I made a grammatical error, sorry. It should be: "sanctioned/bombed or not ..how can we tell?" instead of "sanctioned or bombed ..how can we tell?".

I hope it does not tell us this. However, again it was given as a response to your statement that little information comes out from North Korea.

Sure, and I responded that I think this is not enough information. I strongly believe that something important is missing.

A regime change would need much adjustment. Severe psychological shock..I think is a little exaggerated. But is this what we speaking of at the moment?

Regime change? In my opinion yes, because I this is the only thinkable goal of the sanctions, even if leading to escalation.

Yes, but the regime seems to be more interested in bombing South Korea rather than buying any "cool" stuff it makes.

This is how it seems currently, but I was talking about how it could be. I'm sure they are actually despearately seeking new technology and trade opportunities, because they simply need trade to survive, the soil is too hilly and poor and not sufficient for autarky. They try to extort trade opportunities and advantages by showing their weapons, this is the only explanation that makes sense to me. Hopefully this is not the dead end already where nobody can retreat without losing his face.

I may have misunderstood this point. Are you are saying we are ignorant of other cultures?

Yes, because 50 years of UN-sanctions did not have any success at all. It seems like the ability of the regime and the people to stay stubborn, isolated and eventually become a nuclear power was ignored the whole time. This is what I meant by being ignorant about other cultures like the east asian.
EDIT: Instead of 'stubborness' I should better say more positively "sense of loyality" of many east asians.

Yes, well I think we would all like that ElHorsto. Unfortunately Kim Jong-uns constant war rhetoric does nothing to help it.

Actually I would like to know where I can read or hear his actual rethoric and what he wants to achieve. As I said, I have an assumption already. A weather satellite was launched last December, and the UN (surprise,surprise) in turn extended the sanctions once more as usual.