Politics Left vs. Right: Political Discussion

I think you've nailed the media (especially the local news) quite well. The panic and shallowness that were once left to the tabloids has now become the mainstream. I got pretty sick of the O.J. trial, then the Scott Peterson trial, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jackson, Robert Blake... WHEN WILL IT ALL END?!?!? Make Greta stop!

And Al Gore isn't that boring anymore. I don't just mean the 'angry preacher' speeches, he's actually pretty funny too. I remember a clip when his microphone came loose....
 
Well Dean wants to be the new DNC chair. Make me want to scream.

The DNC must consider why in the south and mid-west more newly registered voters, especially 18-25 year olds, voted for the other guy. The GOP made significant gains with the young, the working class, the poor and most minority groups.

Yet if you look at surveys from Annenberg and Gallup, most (over 60%) Americans hold views that are politically liberal. Especially on issues such as abortion, gay marriage, education, the environment, taxes, gun control, social programs, health care...people will pick the liberal side of the issue, and then identify themselves as moderate or conservative. These people are not big corporations. They will never have to worry about capital gains taxes, the death tax, nor will they ever benefit from most of the tax code loop holes. Republican poicies will continue to erode their rights at work, protections on the environment, funding for education and programs that help the poor. (Not that the democrats promise anything better.) Most of these people belive that conservative means moral and traditional. Liberal simply is neither cool nor macho.

I still think it is amazing that veterans who no longer qualify for overtime pay-- specifically because they are veterans due to Bush's labor department rules change would ever consider voting for the guy. That rule change was petty and mean spirited. (and it cost us tax revenue.)

I would give some accusation about the party being in bed with big business, but I can't keep a straight face. Look at where most politicians end up when the leave office (to spend more time with their families?)...now how can I get a job like that?
 
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As you've said before about surveys, you can always tweak them to get the results you're looking for. Plus, it's impossible to get a multiple-choice questionnaire ("How is important is preserving the environment to you? 1) very important, 2) moderately important...) to accurately account for people's views.

Like I've said before, the difference lies not as much in what Americans want, but how to get there. Liberals rarely "own" an issue. As for determining the 'liberal side of an issue', once again, I don't think you'll accomplish that with a superficial questionnaire. Should we get guns out of the hands of criminals? Of course. How is that the liberal side of an issue? It's when you get beyond the surface, such as should we make it harder for private citizens to purchase guns or should we do a better job of enforcing the guns laws we already have that you find political differences.

A lot more people are affected by the death tax, or any inheritance tax, than you'd suspect. Many, many 'Mom & Pops' businesses exceed the $600,000 minimum. Also, it's simply an envy tax. I'm for a flat tax, even though my taxes would increase.

Yeah, politicians have it good! Great health benefits, retirement packages to die for, vote yourself a pay raise.... Too bad Clinton & Condit messed up the intern benefits. One of my old classmates is now the councilman for our old neighborhood. I'll ask him your question if I run into him at a reunion or something. I'll bet there's a secret handshake involved....

PS: Great pun. Dean... scream... :lol: But hey, who's your pick for party chair?

Too bad you guys didn't run Lieberman, but I guess being anti-war was the party's issue.
 
Dean will do fine (yeeeeeeeeaaaaaaw!). At least he is reasonably voter savy. Who else is there? (Obama is still an outsider).

All though it does matter how you ask the question, most Americans favor gun control, access to abortion, and liberal social programs. Questions whose answers would define them as liberal continue to lead in polls.

Real policies like the death tax, like capital gains, like not engedering some kind of dynastic control of the wealth of the nation have been part of American taxes since the beginning. One measure of an industrial country is its distribution of wealth. We keep track of this gap, we rank nations according to this gap, and it shows who the party in power has at heart.

Historically the gap has remained somewhat constant, and was less then that of Europe (Until after WWII-- Sweden now has the most equal income society) The disparity increased during the Jackson "age of the Common Man" and during the mass immigration of the 1890's. In 1896 it took a big jump with McKinley's election in 1896, but decreased during the depression and WWII. The gap increased again during the "business friendly" Reagan and Bush #1 administrations. And so the social class this party has taken to heart would be...? We are now one of the most stratified societies in the western world.

In the 1950's a physician made 2.5 times what a unionized laborer made. Today it is more than six times. A clothing firm manager used to earn fifty times the salary of an average employee, now it is 1500 times. An executive in the US used to make thirty times what the average employee made, now it is over 2000 times.

Let no billionaire be left behind. Trickle down on us, oh great paper hanger. As the national debt mounts, oh cut the evil sin of wealthy taxes. Give the rich what they want and we shall one day snack upon the great crumbs of cake.

Thinking aloud: NRA says that 2 million people successfully defended themselves, their property, or someone else with guns (I think in a year..?). Hmmmm. (I haven't shot anyone yet.)
 
WOWZA! What happened to your description of the U.S. tax code as penalizing wealth?

Lessee, a doctor making 6 times more than a unionized laborer? What's wrong with that? A doctor has to go through a whole lot more than signing on with a labor union to get his job. Clothing firm manager? Are those average employees located in the U.S., or Indonesia? (And if they're in Indonesia, where are they now? *ouch!*) Same for the executive. Where are his employees? If you're talking about employees working exclusively in the U.S., I'm gonna have trouble believing those stats.

sabro said:
One measure of an industrial country is its distribution of wealth. We keep track of this gap, we rank nations according to this gap, and it shows who the party in power has at heart.
Ah, but that's only ONE measure. Some of us measure a country by its opportunity for economic growth. If wealth redistribution were the only measure, countries such as Canada would be ahead of us, eh? The Carter administration would be remembered as our country's finest economic hour. Ah, but it took the capital gains tax cuts of JFK and Reagan to revitalize the economy. As far as who any party has at its heart, the answer is simple: itself!

sabro said:
Thinking aloud: NRA says that 2 million people successfully defended themselves, their property, or someone else with guns (I think in a year..?). Hmmmm. (I haven't shot anyone yet.)
Well what are you waiting for?!?!? Get to work! ;)
 
Stats are stats. Those stats (except for the clothing one- which includes offshore employees) are for the US. Japanese firms by contrast pay executives only 160 times average base (in 1998). The US stat was for top executives-- CEO, CFO types (Jr. execs obviously make less) including all compensation vs. base average wage- which is about half of the real average wage (if you include benefits). I got the numbers from separate econ sources, so they actually measure something different. And definitely it is just ONE measurement. Yes Canada, most of Europe, and Japan are ahead of us. Sharp eyes.

The doctor pay thing-- didn't mean to slight doctors, but workers used to make proportionally more. Households used to live on one income. Now it takes two...(especially in the soccer-mom middle class). I wish I made what others with comperable educations (MA's) make.

I'm not backing off my point-- The US tax code has always penalized wealth. We have looked down on old money, inherited wealth, and even in the current friendly climate, the rich can't afford to die without a good lawyer.

Gun control- I always doubt the stats here, what does it mean- certainly not shooting the person in 95% of defense cases. But does this make me safer, or am I likely to be that Japanese exchange student who was gunned down in Texas about ten years ago during holloween? Knocked on the wrong door.

As for shooting anyone-- I'm too near sighted to hit anything moving with any certainty. Tell the bad guys to wear bright colors and stand still.
 
Canada, the economic powerhouse. Whoooaaaa. ;)

I remember the event with the exchange student. Terrible, terrible tragedy. I hope you're not so near-sighted that street signs are a problem for you. Winding up in the wrong neighborhood can really ruin a guy's day...
 
We look at distribution of wealth as one measure, like GNP and per-capita income...both mean little if the wealth of the nation is concentrated among the few (as it is in Saudi Arabia and Nigeria). The US may have a higher GNP and per capita income, but many people may not be sharing in that wealth.

What's kind of funny is that I feel perfectly at ease in East LA where I grew up. I know in my head it's the "wrong neighborhood" but I feel perfectly safe.

(I think they should allow older near sighted guys to carry short barreled scatter guns. Their broad spread and short range should make everyone around me safer.)
 
I noticed you mentioned Sweden earlier in regards to income equailty. First, is that really fair? Should the sloth-like counter attendants at McDonalds make as much as, say... their district manager?

Secondly, Sweden is a small country that is fairly homogenous. Like Japan, it is easier to have such control. Trying to run the U.S. (or the world) in the same manner as Sweden or Japan would be like trying to fly a Boeing 777 as you would an ultralight. Or vice versa. They don't turn the same, climb the same, etc. Which could lead into why I don't like the "one world government" theory, but let's save that for later.

Suffice it to say, we're coming at this from different perspectives. There are those who define fairness and equality by opportunity, others by result. This really came to light in the 2000 race. But as I've said before, if the result will be equal regardless of input, then work ethic will be a thing of the past. No incentive, no growth.

Is it fair that top execs get fat bonuses while convincing their employees to work for less just so the company will stay afloat (as in the case of American Airlines in 2001)? No. That's where disclosure comes in handy. Those pilots and attendants found out and handed that guy his butt. Figuratively speaking, of course.

Life tends not to be fair, and society tends to be imperfect. Given those conditions, I'll take equal opportunity over equal result any day. After all, guaranteeing equal opportunity is a much more practical goal.

If someone can figure out a way to perfect society (without killing off vast numbers of the populace), keep work incentive alive and maintain the potential for economic growth, then MAYBE wealth redistribution can work. Good luck with that...

I can't remember if I've said this before, but my belief is that those of us who can help those who truly can't help themselves have a moral obligation to do so. BUT those who are able to help themselves have a moral obligation, to themselves and others, to do so.

I know what you mean about locations. I'm comfortable walking or riding the subway in NYC; the only time I've been mugged was in Birmingham, Alabama. Although one night a homeless guy walked up to bum money just as I happened to be getting a sword out of my car (Shinkendo class). You should've seen him run! It took me a second to realize what had happened, then I couldn't keep from laughing the rest of the night.
 
I can't say I disagree with you on any of the above points. For me, it's never about equal results. I don't want everything the same, everything homogeneous, and nor do I want anything without struggle or hard work.

Life is not fair, and everyone does not have the same height, the same intelligence, the same character, the same good looks. But here in America we're all equal right? But do we all play on a level playing field? That we all have an equal opportunity? That the sons of old money have the same shot at harvard as the sons of lettuce pickers, or that some poor working slob that gets sick will have the same access to quality health care and possibly life that some hollywood actor? Or that some guys will work hard all their life, honestly pouring their sweat and creative energy, get little compensation and lose their pension and job in some corporate profit move? That the rich have worked for every penny they have and the poor are just stupid and lazy? That corporations will act in our behalf, with not profit, but the good of mankind in mind? (Enron, Tyco, Siverado S&L, Qualcom and Mission Energy were flukes.) When execs make hundreds of times what the guy who actually does the work makes, I don't know if that is fair. I don't know if it fair that our prez makes less than the MLB minimum, or that teachers make less per day than movie extras. Do the students in my classroom have the same shot at the brass ring as the Bush twins? I tell them that if they work hard, that they can do anything. (Talent not withstanding) Am I lying? I don't see any yellow brick roads leading to a perfect munchkinland. But I do think that the average working Joe has to have someone in Washington on his side. (And it's not W)
 
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Well, you were off to a good start...

A little perspective: God isn't fair, but we're expected to be perfectly fair? (No, I'm not a practicing Christian. Feel free to insert Mother Earth, Allah, Buddha, Oprah, or your deity of choice.)
 
Fairness is something to work toward.

I think God is fair. Maybe not in this life, but on the final balance sheet... and don't ask me for proof.
Either that or we are all scared naked hairless primates.
 
Don't worry, I won't demand proof. I'm sure I'll get all the proof I need one day.

So.... what's next?
 
What about medicine? I saw Keifer Southerland on "Inside the Actors Studio" yesterday, and he was touting the healthcare of his native Canada. (His grandfather was voted "Most Noteworthy Canadian in History" or something, for setting up the system.)

The whole Bill and Hillary's wild plan failed to even make it to vote because clever Republican ads scared us away. (Oh NO-- it's like Communism!)

My opinion: maybe it wasn't the best plan, but that's why congress passes laws- I'm certain that one of them has a brain and could come up with a workable plan. I think it is a crime that people are suffering and dying because we can't put a plan together.
Who should pay for it? People, businesses... we already pay. Just make it...fair?
 
It's a good thing HillaryCare was stopped cold. I don't think the references to it as a Marxist health plan were inaccurate, but somebody on the forum insists that I don't know what I'm talking about whenever he disagrees with my opinion. (Hint: Not you, sabro.)

Yes, it was a wild plan and a HUGE step. That drastic of a measure wasn't needed. Now I know that certain Democrat lawmakers want to control the nation's healthcare and have aired advertisements to scare us into thinking that they're the only ones who care about us and are the only ones who are wise enough to provide care for us.

Then I go to the DMV....

If the government controls the health care in this country, it won't just be Democrats. Republicans will have control too. My concern is that it'll turn into another Social Security, and be pilfered into ruin by both sides.

The private sector has brought medical science to a level only imagined by sci-fi writers (I'm still waiting for the day when a doctor can hold a lupe-sized instrument over me and complete the diagnosis, ala Star Trek). How about cutting out all the John Edwards lawsuits? People are suing if they don't like the results. Doctors are performing every test under the sun to every patient, regardless of symptoms, all because they might get sued for not considering every possibility, no matter how ridiculous.

I'm not advocating the obstruction of all malpractice lawsuits. But by rough estimates, over 60% of them are frivolous. That could reduce the cost of medical considerably, don't you think?

Personally, I think that tort reform is desperately needed here. I've been in retail stores when black people have tried to bait clerks into a race-based lawsuit. People are hijacking justice to use as a lottery! Not only is it abusive of the system, it also prevents others from getting their day in court.

Oh wait, medicine.... sorry.

I think someone on Capitol Hill can come up with a plan. Probably Frist, but he isn't pushy enough. Kennedy and his ilk are too good at tantrums and obstructionism. For that clan, it's all about politics all the time. Will he listen to Frist? I doubt it. After all, wasn't it Pelosi who, after the entire AMA concluded that there was no medical need for partial-birth (third term) abortions, stood in front of a clump of microphones in a national press conference and called partial-birth abortions a necessity? "You're a doctor? I don't care! I'm a United Satates Senator and that means I know everything!"

Now I really don't have a stand on abortion as a whole, but there's nothing I've read that justifies partial-birth abortions to me. Especially having it paid for by taxpayers.

Oh wait, medicine.... sorry.

So... what do you think we need to do to make the system fair?
 
If Marx could design a better moustrap, then let's use it. The dreaded Hillary plan was a start, what was the Republican (let them eat cake) counter offer? The fact that the working middle class doesn't have access to affordable health care is criminal. The poor have state and federal programs that barely function and are the constant victims of fraud. It affects jobs, if affects productivity and the economy.

I don't have enough brain cells to devise a system better than what we have, but I know there has to be one out there. I have heard complaints about Canada, but they are the same complaints that I have about my HMO. (as a teacher, it is supposed to be one of the best plan, but it takes forever to see my doctor, I have to see him before I see a specialist, hard to get through on the phone, cancelled appointments...)
 
Suggestions of where to go:

Does the GOP lie?: We could also look at why the past few Republican administrations have promised a smaller government, balanced budgets and tax cuts but have actually raised taxes on the working poor (while cutting services) and some middle class, had record deficits, and bloated the size of the fed-- While Ol Bill Clinton actually had surpluses, shrank the ranks of the federal work force, had the smallest growth in the national government since Ford, and raised taxes on neither the poor nor the middle class. Taxes have shifted since the Liberal tax code days of Nixon and Ford, from the big corporations and big business and the wealthy (especially the dead wealthy-- we used to like to tax them) to the middle class and small businessmen. Fiscal conservatism and fighting for the little guy is not evidently a GOP priority.

Did W lie?: We could ask if the whole WMD thing was a lie to get us into the war, or were we hoodwinked, or maybe if changing the justification of why you are fighting in the middle of the war is okay-- even if it was a pre-emptive strike. After all the justification for the civil war- from re-unification to abolition- changed more than halfway through the conflict. I remember the charts and photos and Powell at the UN connecting the dots. I remember the US dismissing the idea of more inspectors as a smokescreen. That sanctions and inspectors had not worked and Sadam was a serious and imminent threat. I also heard on several occasions how Iraq was linked to al Qaeda and 9/11.

Was the lie worth it?: We could look at the cost of Iraq- $105 Billion this year, plus however many soldier's lives, plus our credibility in the world community (see http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6857387/site/newsweek) and ask "Is it worth it?" W is asking for $80 billion more...

Of course the answers won't matter, second termers don't have to look at polls or think about re-election, or the truth or war dead.
 
sabro said:
Does the GOP lie?
Oh boy.

It seems everybody has their own definition of a lie. Politicians by nature are expected to make promises, not all of which can be kept at a later date ("Read my lips..."). Some would call that a lie. Sometimes a president can repeat the same information (WMDs) that has been said by the preceding president, most of congress and the overwhelming bulk of the intelligence community, but only he is singled out as a liar when holes of doubt are poked in that information. But if someone uses phony witnesses and provides unsubstantiated third-person accounts as testimony (Kerry, 1971) and states he was somewhere he wasn't (Christmas in Cambodia), anybody who stands up to defy that gets their private lives scrutinized and is accused of being part of a vast right-wing conspiracy.

And what about a president who lies under oath to deny his victim her day in court under a law he signed? What about a president who uses his staff and wife (aka co-president) to publicly slime another woman and accuse her of being a mad stalker? Think they would've stopped had it not been for the DNA sample on the blue dress?

I remember how the press gushed about the brilliance of the Clintons; how Bill could remember phone numbers from 20 years prior, how Hillary could name the lobbyists she worked with.... until they were under oath! Then they couldn't remember a thing! Heck, Hillary couldn't even remember where she left the Rose Law Firm records!

Why do you think only Republicans are capable of lying?

sabro said:
While Ol Bill Clinton actually had surpluses,
He never actually had surpluses. There was a projected surplus, but the tech bubble burst, NASDAQ dropped, people were losing their jobs to overseas production, etc., and Clinton never did a thing to stop any of that.

sabro said:
shrank the ranks of the federal work force, had the smallest growth in the national government since Ford,
He slashed the military. Period. He cut staff and supplies to a dangerous level. You're going to tell me he cut social programs...?

sabro said:
and raised taxes on neither the poor nor the middle class.
In 1993, Gore cast the tie-breaking vote on the biggest tax increase in U.S. history. Over-tax the people who finance this country and its industries. Great plan, just great.

sabro said:
Taxes have shifted since the Liberal tax code days of Nixon and Ford, from the big corporations and big business and the wealthy (especially the dead wealthy-- we used to like to tax them) to the middle class and small businessmen.
We're taxing the people inheriting from the dead wealthy. We've already discussed this. It's their money, it doesn't belong to the Federal Government just because the person who owned it before can no longer defend themselves.

sabro said:
Fiscal conservatism and fighting for the little guy is not evidently a GOP priority.
And it's the DNC's?!?!? Coffee time! Neither party is fighting for the little guy. They're fighting for their lobbyists and major campaign donors. Okay, the DNC is also fighting for their pet extremist groups, like ELF, NOW, ANSWER, Move-On, etc.

Something I figured out early on (8 yrs old) was that the little guy has to fight for himself, regardless of where he lives on this planet. Each party makes its promises, but if the GOP represents the rich and the DNC represents the poor, then I'd say that at least the GOP is the more honest party, as they don't sell their constituents down the river for political power.

In America, we have private sector groups like AOPA (one of my favorites), which fight for the rights and liberties of their members. And unlike labor unions, AOPA (and their like) HAS to listen to their members and not a particular political party or the organization itself would fall apart.

Which brings up another difference: While leftists try to associate the KKK with the GOP, and the KKK tries to pass itself off as having conservative Christian values (hello - Christ was a Jew) as a marketing ploy, the GOP obviously doesn't listen to the KKK. But could you imagine the DNC ignoring all of the little whacko groups that are pulling it in so many directions? Have you seen the people showing up at these protests? Scary to think that so many of them are licensed drivers.

sabro said:
Did W lie?
Don't we already have a few threads covering this?

sabro said:
After all the justification for the civil war-
*Ahem* The war between the states. A civil war is when two factions are fighting over the same power. Also, the southern states had the legal right to secede. The constitution was later changed to prevent that from happening again. Not that we haven't talked about giving y'all to Canada. Most of Hollywood already works there anyway. And y'all talk about taking jobs out of America.... Hahaha!

After y'all won, you wrote the history books to state that the war was fought over slavery and slavery alone. But poor farmers don't fight over plantation owners' ability to own slaves. But they do fight for political representation after providing so much of that nation's food and resources only to be oppressed. Yes, we were treated like dumb hicks back then too. We've come a long way, no?

sabro said:
That sanctions and inspectors had not worked and Sadam was a serious and imminent threat. I also heard on several occasions how Iraq was linked to al Qaeda and 9/11.
There's no proof they had worked. In his State of the Union Address, the president stated that he didn't want to wait until Saddam was an imminent threat, as then all discourse and action would be too late. He also mentioned the human rights violations in that same address, well before we invaded. Saddam did have links to al-Qaeda. Whether he had connections to 9/11 is dubious but moot: We didn't proclaim war on al-Qaeda alone, but terrorism and all those who supported it. Shoot first and check their membership card later.

And don't forget: We've destroyed over 400,000 tons of weapons that Saddam wasn't supposed to have under the 1991 UN cease-fire agreement. WMDs? No, I guess they'd be classified as WADs (Weapons of Average Destruction).

sabro said:
We could look at the cost of Iraq- $105 Billion this year, plus however many soldier's lives, plus our credibility in the world community
Or we could look at the cost of not taking Islamic terrorism and dictators seriously - 3,500 dead in NYC (my sister was almost one of them), D.C., the two embassies, the USS Cole, and the first WTC attack, 40% of our economic downturn (recession, whatever), plus our reputation among terrorists for not fighting back. What was it Clinton kept saying every time we were hit? Oh yeah - "I promise you: The people who did this will be hunted down and brought to justice." The only thing he left out was : "...under the next president!"

sabro said:
Of course the answers won't matter, second termers don't have to look at polls or think about re-election, or the truth or war dead.
Wow, you really can be Michael Moore-ish! ;-)
 
I definitely don't want to debate the Civil War.

I showed my fren' from alabama- (a die hard re-enactor with the stars and bars on his bumper), the transcripts of speeches delegates sent from one Southern state to the legislatures of other states- giving the reasons for seceeding, and the overwhelming reason given was the protection of slavery from the intervention of outsiders.

It was the North that wanted the war to be "about Union"-- how many poor urban Northerners, especially new immigrants like the Irish, wanted to compete with freed slaves? Sign up boys and put yourself out of work.

I've never defended my pal Bill. Clinton lied about Monica. He's a baaaaad man. Hilary should slap him, again and again with something heavy. Presidents shouldn't lie. They shouldn't use the powers of office to get laid, or cover it up. They shouldn't make their staff look stupid by standing around in support of you when you lie.

You also shouldn't get countries involved in wars without good reasons. You shouldn't "walk down that path of nation building- we get into big trouble" as candidate W said.

got to go...
More to follow
 
sabro said:
Hilary should slap him, again and again with something heavy.
Have you been to jibjab.com? You'll see Hillary slappin' Bill around! Oh, that's some funny stuff....
 
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