Literacy may have been widespread in Israel by the 7th century BC

[Maleth]

Sumerian cuneiform script is the oldest one.

"Sumerian cuneiform is the earliest known writing system. Its origins can be traced back to about 8,000 BC and it developed from the pictographs and other symbols used to represent trade goods and livestock on clay tablets."

Cuneiform and alphabet systems are two different forms of writing (as you well know). So the Phoenician alphabet will be the oldest form. Although the Cuneiform method is older, evolved by time and was simplified it still cannot be classified as alphabet which eventually have made cuneiform methods obsolete as in relation to the semitic language mentioned in this thread.

 

[Maleth]

All alphabets were derived from the Sumerians in the first place.

?

"The history of alphabetic writing goes back to the consonantal writing system used for Semitic languages in the Levant in the 2nd millennium BCE. Most or nearly all alphabetic scripts used throughout the world today ultimately go back to this Semitic proto-alphabet.^[1] Its first origins can be traced back to a Proto-Sinaitic script developed in Ancient Egypt to represent the language of Semitic-speaking workers in Egypt. This script was partly influenced by the older Egyptian hieratic, a cursive script related to Egyptian hieroglyphs"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet

Goga were do you get your information from?

 

[Goga]

?

"The history of alphabetic writing goes back to the consonantal writing system used for Semitic languages in the Levant in the 2nd millennium BCE. Most or nearly all alphabetic scripts used throughout the world today ultimately go back to this Semitic proto-alphabet.^[1] Its first origins can be traced back to a Proto-Sinaitic script developed in Ancient Egypt to represent the language of Semitic-speaking workers in Egypt. This script was partly influenced by the older Egyptian hieratic, a cursive script related to Egyptian hieroglyphs"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet

Goga were do you get your information from?

From your own source:

" Predecessors[edit]

Two scripts are well attested from before the end of the fourth millennium BCE: Mesopotamian cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_alphabet


" The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuneiform_script

 

[Goga]

Cuneiform and alphabet systems are two different forms of writing (as you well know). So the Phoenician alphabet will be the oldest form. Although the Cuneiform method is older, evolved by time and was simplified it still cannot be classified as alphabet which eventually have made cuneiform methods obsolete as in relation to the semitic language mentioned in this thread.

But the so called 'Phoenician alphabet' is DERIVED from a cuneiform script.

Sumerian is the oldest of the cuneiform scripts (writings), older than Egypt. Sumerian writings are ancestral to many alphabets after it.


Sumerians were simply the first. And the Aryan writings were influenced by the more ancient Sumerian writings.



" The Sumerians were one of the earliest urban societies to emerge in the world, in Southern Mesopotamia more than 5000 years ago. They developed a writing system whose wedge-shaped strokes would influence the style of scripts in the same geographical area for the next 3000 years. Eventually, all of these diverse writing systems, which encompass both logophonetic, consonantal alphabetic, and syllabic systems, became known as cuneiform.

It is actually possible to trace the long road of the invention of the Sumerian writing system. For 5000 years before the appearance of writing in Mesopotamia, there were small clay objects in abstract shapes, called clay tokens, that were apparently used for counting agricultural and manufactured goods. As time went by, the ancient Mesopotamians realized that they needed a way to keep all the clay tokens securely together (to prevent loss, theft, etc), so they started putting multiple clay tokens into a large, hollow clay container which they then sealed up. However, once sealed, the problem of remembering how many tokens were inside the container arose. To solve this problem, the Mesopotamians started impressing pictures of the clay tokens on the surface of the clay container with a stylus. Also, if there were five clay tokens inside, they would impress the picture of the token five times, and so problem of what and how many inside the container was solved.

Subsequently, the ancient Mesopotamians stopped using clay tokens altogether, and simply impressed the symbol of the clay tokens on wet clay surfaces. In addition to symbols derived from clay tokens, they also added other symbols that were more pictographic in nature, i.e. they resemble the natural object they represent. Moreover, instead of repeating the same picture over and over again to represent multiple objects of the same type, they used diferent kinds of small marks to "count" the number of objects, thus adding a system for enumerating objects to their incipient system of symbols. Examples of this early system represents some of the earliest texts found in the Sumerian cities of Uruk and Jamdat Nasr around 3300 BCE, such as the one below. "

http://www.ancientscripts.com/sumerian.html




Sumerian cuneiform were older and more advanced than those in Egypt.

 

[APO276]

Yes, the Sumerians didn't speak a Semitic language. It's considered language isolate. But what makes them "Aryan"? Nothing.

"The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire. "

^That doesn't prove anything. Sumerian wasn't Semitic or Indoeuropean. From those languages, IE are Hittite, Luwian and Old Persian. Akkadian, Eblaite and Ugaritic were Semitic. So the first Indoeuropeans who used a script derived from the Sumerian script were the Hittites (at least according to the evidence we have).

 

[Maleth]

But the so called 'Phoenician alphabet' is DERIVED from a cuneiform script.

alphabet is more specific and detailed then cuneiform. One could write a sentence as if they were speaking. I believe that linguists agree the Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs which is not an alphabet but also a type of cuneiform script, meaning expressing one self with a symbol and not alphabet.

Sumerian is the oldest of the cuneiform scripts (writings), older than Egypt.

agreed, although it seems that Egyptian Hieroglyphics seem to have developed independently to their Sumerian counterpart.

Sumerian writings are ancestral to many alphabets after it.

Yes to some but not the ones we are discussing on this thread. Maybe I am mistaken but the ones influenced by Sumerian cuneiform script are now extinct.

Sumerian cuneiform were older and more advanced than those in Egypt.

Probably they were, but never the less they were mostly based on symbols similar to the ones of the Vinca culture in old Europe. However the more progressive alphabet seems to be influenced by the Egyptian hieroglyphics and not Sumerian system. Of course I am not excluding that it might be possible that there was inter cultural exchanges between the cuneiform systems, but if there was it does not seem to be clear or straight forward and both systems seems, at least on the large part, to have developed independently.

 

[RobertColumbia]

alphabet is more specific and detailed then cuneiform. One could write a sentence as if they were speaking. I believe that linguists agree the Phoenician alphabet is derived from Egyptian hieroglyphs which is not an alphabet but also a type of cuneiform script, meaning expressing one self with a symbol and not alphabet....

No, the term cuneiform means "wedge shaped" and refers to the distinctive look of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Old Persian symbols that was a result of the writing tools that they preferred, regardless of whether they were writing with an alphabetic system or some other system. In a similar sense, you could refer to Japanese, Chinese, and Korean writing as "brush characters" because they were all traditionally painted with a paintbrush, despite the fact that Korean is alphabetic, Japanese is syllabic with some full-word characters, and Chinese uses word-symbols.

I think the word you want is logographic. This refers to building a writing system based on characters that represent ideas, concepts, and objects rather than characters that represent sounds.

 

[Maleth]

No, the term cuneiform means "wedge shaped" and refers to the distinctive look of Sumerian, Babylonian, and Old Persian symbols that was a result of the writing tools that they preferred, regardless of whether they were writing with an alphabetic system or some other system.

That would proof that Sumerian and Egyptian writing systems were separate and the Phoenician alphabet (The oldest one in the world) was Derived from the Egyptian form and not the Sumerian....(visa vi to Gogas argument who claims the opposite).

 

[Goga]

Yes, the Sumerians didn't speak a Semitic language. It's considered language isolate. But what makes them "Aryan"? Nothing.

"The original Sumerian script was adapted for the writing of the Akkadian, Eblaite, Elamite, Hittite, Luwian, Hattic, Hurrian, and Urartian languages, and it inspired the Ugaritic alphabet and Old Persian cuneiform. Cuneiform writing was gradually replaced by the Phoenician alphabet during the Neo-Assyrian Empire. "

^That doesn't prove anything. Sumerian wasn't Semitic or Indoeuropean. From those languages, IE are Hittite, Luwian and Old Persian. Akkadian, Eblaite and Ugaritic were Semitic. So the first Indoeuropeans who used a script derived from the Sumerian script were the Hittites (at least according to the evidence we have).

Sumerians predate Aryan/Modern Iranian (Iranid race) folks. Sumerian were ancestors of the Modern Aryans who came after the Sumerians. More precisely the Mitanni and their descendants the Medes. The Medes who were evolved from the Mitanni were the first who called themselves 'Aryans'. Right after the Sumerian disappeared, Hittites and the Mitanni came into the existence. I'm sure that the Sumerians contributed to the genepool of the Hittites and Mitanni and maybe other Anatolian IEan speakers in the region.

From the modern founding it is assumed that the Sumerians lived in the Northern Parts of the Mesopotamia, Kurdistan. They found some years ago Sumerian writing of epic of Gilgamesh in Kurdistan, Sulemania. It is now assumed that that epic took place in Kurdistan.

All the ancient writings in Mesopotamia, like the Aryan writing (ancient Avestan), were influenced by the Sumerians. The Sumerians lived at the same place where Aryans came to birth and evolved. So, of course the Aryan writings were closer to the Sumerians than to the Egyptians who lived in the different area further away.

Btw, the Levant was also part of the ancient Egypt. Maybe the Egyptians learned the writing from the Sumerians around Lebanon/Syria. Because the Sumerians predate the Egyptians.


Why I'm telling this? Jews like it or not, most of their knowledge they took it from Northern Mesopotamia (even their GOD, Yahweh). With other words, the Jews invented nothing, but they were heavily influenced by the Northern Mesopotamian/ARYAN (Iranid race) folks (Magi/the Medes). Jews are overrated, and folks in general and even the Jews themselves are overestimating the Jews.

 

[Yetos]

Σαδουκαιοι were Φαρισαιοι that accepted ressuction
they were same class and origin, simply they accepted the ressuction after death,

there were 2 class of elite Judaians at Herodes times,

1) the temple priest from who origin from tribe Levi Λεβιτες
2) the lawers, the Φαρισσαιοι, who know to write, explain, and teach the law of Moses,
Pharissaioi were a class, not a tribe, neither separated, they were the judges and lawers of that time Judea, the priviledged ones,
Pharrissaioi counsil was the high court of Judeans
Sadoukaioi were Pharrissaioi who accepted resurection

at new testament always Pharrissaioi ask Christ to 'explain the law'
and Jesus always say about them cause they 'made' the law according their measures

a third kind of priest were Εσσαιοι who lived in system that had nothing to do with Judeans or Samareitans, they lived in comonalities
at new testament are mentioned as Hellenized Jews, yet later they revolt against Romans and dissapear,
it is said that they were all Jesus students and followers, but later at 60 AD they change him for another Messiah,
many also coonect zealots Maccabi with Essaioi,
but their way of life and comonality is not compined with traditional Jew way of life of that time

 

[Yetos]

Probably they were, but never the less they were mostly based on symbols similar to the ones of the Vinca culture in old Europe. However the more progressive alphabet seems to be influenced by the Egyptian hieroglyphics and not Sumerian system. Of course I am not excluding that it might be possible that there was inter cultural exchanges between the cuneiform systems, but if there was it does not seem to be clear or straight forward and both systems seems, at least on the large part, to have developed independently.

that is a strange truth, writting symbols at Balkans are far ancient, but until now no full text found before Ugaritic text,

 

[Coriolan]

Regarding the topic's title, how do we know that it wasn't written by scribes? It was a common practice in the ancient world, and not just in Egypt.

Sent from my LG-D620 using Tapatalk

 

[Angela]

Regarding the topic's title, how do we know that it wasn't written by scribes? It was a common practice in the ancient world, and not just in Egypt.

Sent from my LG-D620 using Tapatalk

From the authors:

"The analysis suggests that at least six different people, ranging in rank from the commander of the fort down to the deputy quartermaster, had written these texts. All of the writers used proper spelling and syntax. Similar ostracons have been found at other border forts, suggesting that writing was widespread, at least within the Judahite army. "