Macedonian Slavs: which people are they genetically closest to?

Macedonians Slavs are genetically closer to:

  • Albanians

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Serbs

    Votes: 4 18.2%
  • Bulgarians

    Votes: 13 59.1%
  • Greeks

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • Turks

    Votes: 1 4.5%
  • They are not particularly close to a single ethnic group.

    Votes: 3 13.6%
  • Other; namely

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    22
So, it seems to me that Albanians (correct me if I am wrong), Greeks and Bulgarians see Macedonian Slavs as former Bulgarians, but Serbs do not. While none of them consider them to be related to Ancient Macedonians.

Coincidentally, it was the Serbs in the previous century who claimed Macedonian Slavs where not Bulgarians.


Well, Bulgarian army conquered territory of FYR Macedonia couple of times. On the other hand , in Skopje (capitol of today's FYR Macedonia) Serbian Emperor lived, was crowned, proclaimed constitution... Just from the attitude towards the territory, one can assume what people lived in there. Read the first three paragraphs, and you'll get the picture about what was happening there:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dušan's_Code

I don't even know why Bulgarians had pretensions on that territory in 19-20 century. It was always more logical for them to try to take control of the Thrace and Constantinopole. Having control of Bosphorus and Dardanelles, having no one behind your back, having territorial integrity supported by physical geography would be numerous times better than controlling strategically unimportant and poor territory as is FYR of Macedonia. My opinion is that allied with Greece they could have easily done that, but some other international factors gave them a clue that it was never going to happen.
 
Bulgarians and Greeks.

According haplogroups today's Macedonians are the closest to Serbs.

You can see research of Pericic et al.:

R1a Serbs: 15.9, Macedonians: 15.2
R1b Serbs: 10.6, Macedonians: 5.1
I1b (old nomenclature) Serbs: 29.2 Macedonians 29.1
E3b1 (old nomenclature) Serbs: 20.4 Macedonians: 24.1
J2f (probably old nomenclature) Serbs: 2.70, Macedonians: 2.50
Etc.

Another researches have something bigger differences but still Macedonians are the closest to Serbs. Haplogroups of Bulgarians and especially Greeks are much more diverse.

If you look for example haplogroups in a larger country, for example Italy, you can see much greater differences in haplogroups by Italian region than in relation between Serbs and Macedonians which are similar.
 
I'd like to know what think the Bulgarians about the fyrom.
 
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There is no distinct ethnic formula for Macedonians. Because the Balkans is the region on which many tribes and ethnic people settled and fighted with each other, one can not says Macedonians are mostly Bulgarian, Turkish or Greek.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/
 
There is no distinct ethnic formula for Macedonians. Because the Balkans is the region on which many tribes and ethnic people settled and fighted with each other, one can not says Macedonians are mostly Bulgarian, Turkish or Greek.


http://irglobal.blogspot.com/

Well, when speaking about modern ethnic groups one could assume that one has a diverse origin. I.e. modern Bulgarians will have mostly Thracian and Slavic origin (among others). In that respect the Macedonian Slavs might have essentially the same lineage though. I think there is a scientific basis to make such claims. Sometimes we have the tendency to over complicate things in the Balkans. Basically in antiquity the Balkans was populated by Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Later in the middle ages came a Slavic wave which was absorbed by the locals. All modern peoples in the Balkans, like Vlachs, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians Slavs, Serbs etc. belong to one of these groups or are a mix of these groups. Even Turks in the Balkans are in that respect mostly indigenous. So all of these groups intermixing with each other does not really impact the genetic pool of the region. Because they are all modern formations of a few ethnic groups which inhabited the peninsula. That's why Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs could be closely related.
 
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Well, when speaking about modern ethnic groups one could assume that one has a diverse origin. I.e. modern Bulgarians will have mostly Thracian and Slavic origin (among others). In that respect the Macedonian Slavs might have essentially the same lineage though. I think there is a scientific basis to make such claims. Sometimes we have the tendency to over complicate things in the Balkans. Basically in antiquity the Balkans was populated by Greeks, Thracians and Illyrians. Later in the middle ages came a Slavic wave which was absorbed by the locals. All modern peoples in the Balkans, like Vlachs, Albanians, Greeks, Macedonians Slavs, Serbs etc. belong to one of these groups or are a mix of these groups. Even Turks in the Balkans are in that respect mostly indigenous. So all of these groups intermixing with each other does not really impact the genome of a region. Because they are all modern formations of a few ethnic groups which inhabited the peninsula. That's why Bulgarians and Macedonian Slavs could be closely related.

But genetically Macedonian Slavs and Serbs are closer related than Bulgarians. If you observe linguistics it is different situation but we can argue about Serbian and Macedonian. In Serbia (East Serbia, Old Serbia) there was regions where people had language between today's Serbian and Macedonian, but reform of the Serbian language canceled East Serbian and Old Serbian dialects.

To resume by haplogroups (Y-DNA) Slavic Macedonians are closer to Serbs, by linguistics Macedonian is closer to East and Old Serbian (but it is not standard Serbian language) and probably Bulgarian. It would be interesting that someone say about similarities/differences between Macedonian and Bulgarian. Otherwise all three languages are similar, when I'm with Macedonians and Bulgarians in a foreign country we communicate in our mother languages and someone wonders how we understand each other when we live in three different countries.

Closeness Slavic Macedonians toward Serbs is probably higher than Bulgarians (Serbs are probably better feel in Macedonia) and in culture, music etc. Serbian impact is high. Life is long in the same state.
 
I don't know why people discount that many people in northern Greece may be genetically similar to Macedonians, especially considering that ancient Macedonians were a Greek group.. so modern Macedonians are Slavicized but still maintain some of their ancient ancestry, and northern Greece itself had been influenced by Slavs at one point even though Greeks have kept their language and culture.
 
I don't know why people discount that many people in northern Greece may be genetically similar to Macedonians, especially considering that ancient Macedonians were a Greek group.. so modern Macedonians are Slavicized but still maintain some of their ancient ancestry, and northern Greece itself had been influenced by Slavs at one point even though Greeks have kept their language and culture.

Serbs and Slavic Macedonians are one of part Thracians. Problem with Slavic Macedonians is because they can have Paeoninian blood, and probably the part of Slavic Macedonians/and South East Serbs are Paeonians. But no Antic Macedonians.

Antic Macedonians and Paeonians don't have same origin. Paeonians are Thracian tribe. Macedonians are probably Doric tribe.
 
Serbs and Slavic Macedonians are one of part Thracians. Problem with Slavic Macedonians is because they can have Paeoninian blood, and probably the part of Slavic Macedonians/and South East Serbs are Paeonians. But no Antic Macedonians.

Antic Macedonians and Paeonians don't have same origin. Paeonians are Thracian tribe. Macedonians are probably Doric tribe.

Seems pretty accurate, but some Slavic Macedonians also lived in parts classical Macedonia which is now part of Greece. Though I am still not convinced that as a whole Macedonian Slavs are closer to Serbs than Bulgarians. Perhaps south east Serbs who are part Paeonian are closer to Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.
 
Seems pretty accurate, but some Slavic Macedonians also lived in parts classical Macedonia which is now part of Greece. Though I am still not convinced that as a whole Macedonian Slavs are closer to Serbs than Bulgarians. Perhaps south east Serbs who are part Paeonian are closer to Slavic Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Genetic similarity Slavic Macedonians and Serbs is logical and natural, because Morava-Vardar axis. And history, today's Macedonia (Upper Macedonia) was part of Serbian state. Yes, there are genetic similarities in all region (Aegean Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, East and Old Serbia and West Bulgaria). But original Macedonians are Doric tribe and today's Slavic Macedonians as Serbs are descendants of Thracian/Illyrian/Slavic tribes and genetic differences with today's Greeks are aparent.

Therefore Antic monuments in Skopje are failure and kitsch, and it is comic. It is not history of today's inhabitans of Skopje. I love to go to Skopje but this with Greek antique and history makes no sense. It would bi same when Serbs called themselves Egyptians. And when in Belgrade and another Serbian towns would begin to build Egyptian monuments and buildings.
 
But genetically Macedonian Slavs and Serbs are closer related than Bulgarians.

I can't stop laughing :D
Why do you feel the need to keep lying when something can be easily debunked?

image hosting free

Eurogenes K13:

#PopulationPercent
1East_Med22.05
2North_Atlantic21.34
3Baltic21.03
4West_Med18.47
5West_Asian10.96
6Red_Sea4.71
7Amerindian1.06
8Oceanian0.25
9Northeast_African0.12

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Bulgarian4.31
2Greek_Thessaly6
3Romanian6.07
4Serbian10.02
5Tuscan12.4
6Italian_Abruzzo12.58
7Central_Greek12.86
8West_Sicilian13.87
9East_Sicilian13.93
10North_Italian14.5
11Ashkenazi15.53
12Moldavian15.89
13South_Italian17.13
14Hungarian18.23
15Croatian18.71
16Austrian20.57
17Portuguese20.98
18Spanish_Extremadura21.71
19Spanish_Galicia21.74
20French21.95

Eurogenes K15:

#PopulationPercent
1East_Med20.58
2North_Sea16.02
3West_Med14.96
4Atlantic12.5
5Baltic11.54
6Eastern_Euro10.23
7West_Asian9.48
8Red_Sea4.33
9Amerindian0.37

Single Population Sharing:

#Population (source)Distance
1Greek_Thessaly5.94
2Bulgarian7.55
3Romanian8.09
4Greek8.52
5Serbian9.97
6Ashkenazi10.9
7Tuscan11.08
8Italian_Abruzzo11.43
9Central_Greek11.71
10East_Sicilian12.46
11West_Sicilian12.77
12North_Italian13.95
13South_Italian15.2
14Moldavian15.49
15Hungarian17.24
16Austrian17.73
17Croatian17.76
18Italian_Jewish18.15
19Spanish_Galicia19.31
20Sephardic_Jewish19.35

As you can see, the Serbian average is nowhere that close to me as some others are.
In fact, the Bulgarians, the Romanians, the Albanians are all closer to me than the Serbs are.
I have nothing against the Serbs, however I am allergic of lies, especially when someone is lying deliberately...
 
my mother and her family are of Macedonian (greek) descent; as phenotype, they are more close to Serbs
 
View attachment 12365

























For Macedonia case, Cyprus was also Greek Colony, but their genetic structure is very far that they deserve to call another name.

Also Ancient Macedonia was actually pretty new Greek Colony so I don't believe that they were full or highly Greek.

(Very different than Albanian in Kosova and Albanian in Albania.)

And It is obvious they are more close their North-Western neighbours
 
View attachment 12365

























For Macedonia case, Cyprus was also Greek Colony, but their genetic structure is very far that they deserve to call another name.

Also Ancient Macedonia was actually pretty new Greek Colony so I don't believe that they were full or highly Greek.

(Very different than Albanian in Kosova and Albanian in Albania.)

And It is obvious they are more close their North-Western neighbours


Makedonia a Greek colony? !!!!!!!!! :LOL: :LOL:
it is like calling Uzbeki and China Turkic populations are colonies from Constantinoupolis.
or Turks of Turkey have same DNA as Uygurs of China?
should we call western Aegean Turks as Greeks following your opinion.
 
Makedonia a Greek colony? !!!!!!!!! :LOL: :LOL:
it is like calling Uzbeki and China Turkic populations are colonies from Constantinoupolis.
or Turks of Turkey have same DNA as Uygurs of China?
should we call western Aegean Turks as Greeks following your opinion.

Some of the West Anatolian Turks are most probably Islamized Greeks from Rhodes, Crete and the other Aegean islands. Some of the old people still speak Greek.
 
Makedonia a Greek colony? !!!!!!!!! :LOL: :LOL:
Save your breath to you. I won't discuss the reality with you

Just look at the Trojan War participants. I don't see any Macedonians in the Agemmennon side.
http://www.wikiwand.com/simple/Trojan_War

Macedonia is one of the first colony of Greeks

Yes, because for early Greeks north of Thesally was Thrace. Early Thrace involves Macedonia too
"The historical boundaries of Thrace have varied. The ancient Greeks employed the term "Thrace" to refer to all of the territory which lay north of Thessaly inhabited by the Thracians,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace

should we call western Aegean Turks as Greeks following your opinion.

You may, the similarity especially Balkan migrant Turks are high. In my Bulgarian Dad case, he is more Bulgarian and Turks. I has central asian admixture but like quarter of averange turk. I have MTDNA similarity with some Armenian (in far level, but I have)

I am OK with Science and logical hypothesis with evidences.
 
Save your breath to you. I won't discuss the reality with you

Just look at the Trojan War participants. I don't see any Macedonians in the Agemmennon side.
http://www.wikiwand.com/simple/Trojan_War

Macedonia is one of the first colony of Greeks

Yes, because for early Greeks north of Thesally was Thrace. Early Thrace involves Macedonia too
"The historical boundaries of Thrace have varied. The ancient Greeks employed the term "Thrace" to refer to all of the territory which lay north of Thessaly inhabited by the Thracians,"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace



You may, the similarity especially Balkan migrant Turks are high. In my Bulgarian Dad case, he is more Bulgarian and Turks. I has central asian admixture but like quarter of averange turk. I have MTDNA similarity with some Armenian (in far level, but I have)

I am OK with Science and logical hypothesis with evidences.

tottaly wrong, Makedonians as Dorians bellong to the Hellenic world not Mycenean,
Makedonians belong to the primitive stuff of what you call Greeks,
and never a Greek colony,
Besides majority of scientist believes so,
So your opinion is respected but rejected.
When a Makedonian calls the sea Dalaghan is obvious with inner lingustic laws will turn to Greek Thalassa,
so better rethink your aproach to history.
just think why the Myceneans had the Gods at mt Olymp. when hardly was limit of their world?

the mycenean world.
1200px-Mycenaean_World_en.png



the proto-Hellenic world (Greek, non Mycenean)
6014521423_c3a69c7ca0.jpg



I repeat, what you say it is like calling Uyghurs are settlers from Constantinoupolis,
and their language is after modern Turkish.

when Makedonian language has pre-Greekforms, like D instead of Θ, B instead V-F, etc.
It is Atopon to call them S Greek colony, cause they would speak as S Greeks,
A colony follows the grammar and linguistic form of colonists,
Such thing did NOT exist in Makedonians, and you know it, and is the primary arque of every anti-Makedonian theory

Btw
If you ever pass from Central Makedonia or mt Olymp
I will gladly take you to the archaiological sites, to see the different areas among Mycenean, Hellenic and Thracian settlements
in a range of 10 km you will see the Thacian, the Mycenean and the 'proto-Makedonian', century before Makedonian kingdom establish.
 
tottaly wrong, Makedonians as Dorians bellong to the Hellenic world not Mycenean,
Makedonians belong to the primitive stuff of what you call Greeks,
and never a Greek colony,

I really confused now. You said Macedonians are Dorian, but wasn't their mythtic father Dorus .

Your country name is Hellas so my reference will be mythic mother of all 4 greeks tribe Hellen. According to legends, Makednos/Makedon is related with Aeol Tribe not Dorian.

And Makednos is king of Epir not Makedonia.

Also in your map Proto Greeks homeland is not Macedonia, it is Epir. It is just their biggest expansion in your map. There are huge mountains between those areas.

--------------------

Is Mycenean İon, that's why you said not Hellenic?

--------------------

just think why the Myceneans had the Gods at mt Olymp. when hardly was limit of their world?

Probably because of mostly they accept Pelasgian pantheon.

According to this perspective, Most of Europe believes MiddleEast origin religion, because they are Middle Eastern?

Yazımı düzeltilmiş şu sorgu için sonuçları görüyorsunuz: Emathia thrace
Yine de şu sorguyu ara: Emathia thraice




Emathia and "Oesyme " Why the old writers call it part of Thrace

Btw
If you ever pass from Central Makedonia or mt Olymp
I will gladly take you to the archaiological sites, to see the different areas among Mycenean, Hellenic and Thracian settlements
in a range of 10 km you will see the Thacian, the Mycenean and the 'proto-Makedonian', century before Makedonian kingdom establish.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your offer, I can make you similar offer, my home is just on the way of Roman Way Via Egnatia, just out of the Constantinople city wall. And the most holy place out city where many Patriarchs have been buried, is very close.

I went to Kavala (and really like it) but I wish to see Mout Olympus.

Can you be more clear about Mycenean, Hellenic and 'proto-Makedonian (I guess my first time to hear it)?
 
The way I interpret it, is that the proto-Greek world further North is different from the Mycenaean Greek world. The Mycenaeans are more closely connected to the Minoans. They were probably a set of proto-Greeks who descended from Thessaly, Epirus and intermixed with them. Creating the Mycenaean culture. This is supported by DNA evidence. The Dorians are connected to the proto-Greek world who stayed behind and had not yet mixed with the people of the Southern part of the Greek peninsula. So the Mycenaeans are part proto-Greek, but not entirely like the Dorians. Later on, there were more migrations. Some Dorians migrated South (e.g. Spartans), while some Mycenaeans migrated North.

Some Mycenaeans from Argos could have migrated North to the Orestian mountains. There they became the rulers of a Dorian tribe and at some point decided to settle by the thousands (as legend has it) in the Aegean valley called Emathia. This was to be called Macedonia later on. And from there they expanded. As they did so, they expelled some Thracians in the West, or may have even absorbed some, and enlarged their kingdom on all sides. In the North, they absorbed some Epirtot tribes who were also part of the proto-Greek world. This resulted to the Macedonia of Philip of Macedon. A largely proto-Greek tribe whose rulers have roots from Argos. Yet, being largely proto-Greek, and not part of the Mycenaean world (other than some influences) the Greeks in the South didn't know what to make of them around the 5th century BCE. The Macedonians however, being largely proto-Greek, had no illusions of their ancestry. And their royalty was proud of being descended from the Argeads. So in essence what we are in fact contemplating is that the formation of the Hellenic ethnos has been a constantly evolving. And the Macedonians were a key piece of that puzzle.
 
@Boreas,

it is simple,
if you come to the holy mt Olympos, at the East side you will see many settlements,
like Leibeithra, which was Orpheus city and Thracian.
like Philla and Pimplia which were Makedonian
and around Herakleia you will see Mycenean like settlements,

the Aeolian and the Dorian,

Argeiad Dynasty claim ancenstry from Karanos, (Caranus)
Karanos is one of the Temenides who were Dorians, and claim ancestry from Argos and Hercules,
Temenides entered peloponese, Karanos went to Argos, and then went North to Makedonia.
The division of upper Makedonians and argeiad Makedonians includes also an aspiration diefference among them,
argeiads had an aspiration similar to Aeolians, that has to do with PIE-> Proto-Hellenic (ProtoGreek)
 

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