Yes, I can see you are an omen... of complete irrelevance.
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Dianatomia
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There was no Greece. There were just people speaking a similar language and shared the same Gods and customs. Macedonians beat an alliance of some of those people at Charonea. But it has nothing to do with one being Greek and the other not. Nor did they conquer Greece in that battle. Just political rivals with their own agenda. Athenians and Thebans did not fight for Greece, but to retain their power. It was the Macedonias who advocated for a unified Hellenic alliance. Not the Athenians.
As for the names and geography. There was no Greek state politically, but there certainly was a Thessaly. So are we to say therefore Thessaly is older than Greece. And that Thessalian is a real ethnicity while Greek is an illusion? Similarity, the geographical name of Macedonia survived through the ages. Mostly due to Greek literary tradition, signifying a region which changed its geographic connotation many times. North Macedonia being the same as ancient Paeonia, in Alexander’s terms.
Macedonia had its own agenda. And so did Athens. Both slayed Greeks and non Greeks in order to achieve their goals. Both had their unique cultural elements.
Macedonian belongs to the Hellenic language family. To what extent they could understand each other is largely irrelevant. Most nations solved this issue only in the 19th century A.D. Introducing common languages. The Macedonias were smart enough to do it during their reign.
Omino
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Τalking about smears when you literally filled the forum with such pseudohistoric nonsense
Oh the irony
Vallicanus
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I think you are the insecure irrelevance!
Some leaked samples showed the Roman era Macedonians plotting like Calabrese (the PCA is deleted so I don't know what context or accuracy or any details) while Peloponnesians were probably like Dodecanese before the Slavic migration. (the one about Peloponnesians is my assumption).
My belief is that the early Slavs that came to Greece were heterogenous from Bulgaria all the way up to Ukraine. However the great majority should be on the North. The average is going to be misleading depending on the composition of the samples.
Vitruvius
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Leaked samples from where, and why would the PCA be deleted? We already see some some Peloponnesian Greeks plotting like macedonians, tuscans and even northern Italians in the LBA. I have a hard time believing these would not be more abundant in ancient macedonia.
A PCA was posted with some Hellenistic or Roman Macedonian samples plotting with Cretans/Calabrese it is not the one you've seen. I think Eupator posted it. It looked like Agamemnon's based on G25 coordinates possibly Davidski got those early.
I don't know where have you have seen LBA Peloponnesians plotting with Tuscans or North Italians? Random outliers or LQ samples don't count.
As for Peloponnese, one Deep Maniote plotted with the Dodecanese. Considering Slavic admixture made it in Deep Mani only after 15th century it's possible that particular Deep Maniote had zero or close to zero Slavic. While the rest were in Cretan cluster. And if you subtract the slavic admixture from Deep Mani you get a Dodecanese Islander genetically, so that is just my assumption.
The PCA was not official or from any academic study it was something like this:
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Vitruvius
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You see them in Skourtanioti et. al. 2023. They are far from "random" although regrettably some choose to characterize them as freak anomalies instead of the proper Greeks they actually were.
I have serious doubts about Iron age/ancient Macedonia having a Cretan or Calabrese average, but it wouldn't surprise me if a minority of the population consisted of Greek transplants from further south that did have such profiles, similar to the opposite of what we saw in the aforementioned study.
They are charactized as anomalies because they are anomalies. There are Central European samples in Iron Age Tuscany and they are rightfully characterized as outliers/anomalies too.
The North-South differences in Greece were obviously crystalized with the Slavic injection.
Emperor Constantine told us that people of Mani in 9th century were isolated pagans and not descended from Slavs, 1000 years later inspite of them gaining some Slavic admixture they still don't plot like mainstream mainlanders but like Cretans.
Vitruvius
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No, they are clearly just people which are between the spectrum of paeonian-like and cretan like. The only geography that fits that description is the Greek mainland.
Central European samples in Iron age Tuscany are outliers because ancient Tuscany is well sampled and we know they don't represent the genetic norms of people living there. The same is not true for mainland Greece.
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The ones that plot like Cretans are obviously Anatolian-admixed following Alexander's and Roman's expansions. (I only saw a quick PCA so don't take everything for granted before the study comes out.)
Regarding history Byzantines were quite overwhelmed with Slavs.
The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:
«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»
"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' Slavs"
Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.
And for Western Peloponnese in particular:
«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»
s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.
"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"
Emperor Constantine VII:
"The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine (V) the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".
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But also Thracians plotted close to Mycenaean cluster. Nobody knows so far how Macedonians were in the Iron Age but my belief in intermediate between Thracians and Peloponnesians so therefore very similar to Mycenaeans.
The ones that plot like Cretans are obviously Anatolian-admixed following Alexander's and Roman's expansions. (I only saw a quick PCA so don't take everything for granted before the study comes out.)
Regarding history Byzantines were quite overwhelmed with Slavs.
The 10th century Byzantine anonymous epitomizer of Strabo wrote:
«Καὶ νῦν δὲ πᾶσαν Ἤπειρον καὶ Ἑλλάδα σχεδὸν καὶ Πελοπόννησον καὶ Μακεδονίαν Σκύθαι Σκλάβοι νέμονται»
"And now most of Epirus and Hellas and Peloponnesus and Macedonia are inhabited by 'Scythian' Slavs"
Vgl. Müller, Geographi Graeci Minores II S. 574.
And for Western Peloponnese in particular:
«Νῦν δὲ οὐδὲ ὄνομά ἐστι Πισατῶν καὶ Καυκώνων καὶ Πυλίων· ἅπαντα γὰρ ταῦτα Σκύθαι νέμονται»
s. Müller, Geogr. Graeci Minores II S. 583.
"And now not even the names of the Pisatans, the Caucones or the Pylians survive. All these regions are inhabited by 'Scythians'"
Emperor Constantine VII:
"The entire country [of Peloponnese] has been colonized by Slavs and became barbarian, when the deadly plague had stroke the empire, that is when Contantine (V) the "Copronymos" was emperor of the Romans".
Vitruvius
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This is true, Thracians did cluster in this cline as well. Thracians were likely receiving direct Anatolian influence similar to the Greeks just based off their geography alone. It is clear that in the bronze age and neolithic, Anatolia had an abundant population with high fertility rates that was able to significantly influence southern Europe's genetic makeup and the greatest impact occurred in the most geographically proximate lands.
Cretans are already heavily anatolian admixed by the LBA and their profile was effectively modern like by this time. If there was further influx by the classical era it probably wasn't much, not that it matters greatly. I would more assume the iron age would've normalized trans aegean settlement much more so than alexander's conquests.
As far as the quotes go, the Scythians were not Slavs. Interestingly enough, Slavs are the only group which are not reflected in their very broad and almost totally pan European genetic spectrum. They even had steppe-like/Sarmatian individuals which are not reflected by any nation today that plot intermediate between modern caucasian and slavic populations. They also had thracian-like southern european individuals.
Beyond this I don't buy the quotes at all. They have no primary sources associated with them, and I've seen too many modern mainland Greek like samples in the extreme southern geographies of BA Greece to chalk it up to coincidence. It would be one thing if we had a well sampled Macedonia or Thessaly that was chalk full of Cretan like individuals from the bronze age to late antiquity. I don't think that's at all what we'll see. Especially not with the Paeonians and Thracians plotting as northerly as they do.
Vitruvius
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It should also be noted that Ancient Macedonia did not border Thrace, but instead Paeonia and Thessaly. Since the Paeonians recovered so far cluster with modern Tuscans and Lombards I would expect this to be the upper limit of whatever was typical for ethnic Macedonians of the era.
Scythians is a poetic name by the Medieval historians. Not to be taken literally.
As for Macedonians I stand what I said but we will see. If they turn out like Paeonians it is what it is.
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Historically speaking Macedonia has been a more "Slavised" province than Peloponnese. And if Peloponnesians score ~30% Slavic-related ancestry using the current Greek samples (like Empuriote), shouldn't "30%" be the lower bound for Macedonians?
Dibran
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Almost all the studies I've seen have stated the lower and upper limit of Slavic autosomal ancestry in Peloponnese is between 0.4-14%
Is there some new study claiming 30% Slavic ancestry in Peloponnesians?
Vallicanus
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You are right.
BTW What is meant by Slavic...Bulgarian-like or Belorussian-like or Serbian-like or Ukrainian-like? What exactly.
The study with Serbian-Roman Ancient DNA said it.