Macedonians

[Dianatomia]

Also the samples plotting like Cretans were only after the Macedonian expansion. I don't believe this genetic body was dominant in Classical age Macedonia. My guess is something intermediate of Thracians and Peloponnesians.

Before Macedonians settled in the valley of Emathia (core of Macedonia) it is said that they pushed out Paeonians, who were closely related to Phrygians. The Greeks called them Bryges. They were probably pushed out of the region by the Dorian migrations. But in such a proces I would argue that there is always a degree of assimilation. Also, since the Bronze Age there were Mycenaean settlements in the area. Especially around the coast of Macedonia.

So I would argue that the Ancient Macedonians may have been a mix of Dorians (their core), Paeonians (provided the Macedonians absorbed some of them) and Mycenaeans.

 

[Dibran]

The study with Serbian-Roman Ancient DNA said it.

And do you have a source? How seriously is it taken?

According to this study, it's the opposite.

"Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks - European Journal of Human Genetics

Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German...

www.nature.com

 

[ihype02]

And do you have a source? How seriously is it taken?

According to this study, it's the opposite.

"Using a novel method of quantitative analysis of ADMIXTURE output we find that the Slavic ancestry of Peloponnesean subpopulations ranges from 0.2 to 14.4%. Subpopulations considered by Fallmerayer to be Slavic tribes or to have Near Eastern origin, have no significant ancestry of either. This study rejects the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponneseans and illustrates how genetics can clarify important aspects of the history of a human population."

Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval peloponnesean Greeks - European Journal of Human Genetics

Peloponnese has been one of the cradles of the Classical European civilization and an important contributor to the ancient European history. It has also been the subject of a controversy about the ancestry of its population. In a theory hotly debated by scholars for over 170 years, the German...

www.nature.com

I remember you posting on the thread.

A Genetic History of the Balkans from Roman Frontier to Slavic Migrations

The rise and fall of the Roman Empire was a socio-political process with enormous ramifications for human history. The Middle Danube was a crucial frontier and a crossroads for population and cultural movement. Here we present genome-wide data from 136 ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Anyways, using sample from Ancient Greek samples from 500BC is not an ideal proxy but still better than using Sicilians.

 

[Kalhas]

Ancient Macedonians were speaking Greek. Their names were Greek. They had Greek gods. They participated in Greek Olympic games, in which only Greeks were allowed to participate. They were self-identified as Greeks. They spread the Greek language and culture throughout Asia and Africa. Even the word Macedonia is Greek.
The nowadays North Macedonians are speaking Bulgarian. Not only they are not self-identified as Greeks, but also they think that Greeks and Macedonians are different people. Words like Macedonia, Alexander, Filip, Cleopatra etc, have no meaning in their language. They have common history and culture with other slavic populations. As for genetics, as far as I know they are about similar with other slavic populations. This is due to the migration of ancient Macedonians to free Greek speaking areas of eastern Roman empire when Bulgarians and slavs moved into parts of Macedonia about 1400 years ago.
Thus, these two populations are unrelated in any term. Admiring a significant ancient population is accepted but pretending you are connected with them by falcificating history is not.

 

[Who Cares?]

Ancient Macedonians were speaking Greek. Their names were Greek. They had Greek gods. They participated in Greek Olympic games, in which only Greeks were allowed to participate. They were self-identified as Greeks. They spread the Greek language and culture throughout Asia and Africa. Even the word Macedonia is Greek.
The nowadays North Macedonians are speaking Bulgarian. Not only they are not self-identified as Greeks, but also they think that Greeks and Macedonians are different people. Words like Macedonia, Alexander, Filip, Cleopatra etc, have no meaning in their language. They have common history and culture with other slavic populations. As for genetics, as far as I know they are about similar with other slavic populations. This is due to the migration of ancient Macedonians to free Greek speaking areas of eastern Roman empire when Bulgarians and slavs moved into parts of Macedonia about 1400 years ago.
Thus, these two populations are unrelated in any term. Admiring a significant ancient population is accepted but pretending you are connected with them by falcificating history is not.

This is thread about Macedonian population genetics. If you have nothing smart to add don't add at all. Leave your dumb political agenda aside, nobody cares quite literally.

Modern Macedonians are definitively genetically closer to paleo-Balkan people (that ancient Macedonians were) than modern Greeks. That's because modern Greeks have Anatolian/Levantine input from Hellenistic/Roman/Ottoman/post-Ottoman eras. And there's nothing wrong with that, genetics of nation is not something set in stone.

 

[Kalhas]

This is thread about Macedonian population genetics. If you have nothing smart to add don't add at all. Leave your dumb political agenda aside, nobody cares quite literally.

Modern Macedonians are definitively genetically closer to paleo-Balkan people (that ancient Macedonians were) than modern Greeks. That's because modern Greeks have Anatolian/Levantine input from Hellenistic/Roman/Ottoman/post-Ottoman eras. And there's nothing wrong with that, genetics of nation is not something set in stone.

I do not understand. Do you say that slavic speaking populations of the balkans are connected to paleo balkans? Who with whom exactly? In which way? Did paleo Balkans mostly belong to haplogroup I2? Please be more smart. By simply saying that modern Macedonians of North Macedonia are connected to ancient Macedonians is nothing more than politics.
I do not know with whom are connected modern Greeks but surely they do not falcificate historical facts of ancient populations.

 

[Who Cares?]

I do not understand. Do you say that slavic speaking populations of the balkans are connected to paleo balkans? Who with whom exactly? In which way? Did paleo Balkans mostly belong to haplogroup I2? Please be more smart. By simply saying that modern Macedonians of North Macedonia are connected to ancient Macedonians is nothing more than politics.
I do not know with whom are connected modern Greeks but surely they do not falcificate historical facts of ancient populations.

Take a look at their autosomal results. Haplogroups are irrelevant if you carry only 15%-35% Balto-Slavic genetic (which most of them do) and the rest mostly paleo-Balkan.

Also, another fact: Some subclades of I2 are paleo-Balkan. This Y-DNA has been in Europe for about 25-30k years. I doubt that all subclades of I2-Y3120 are Slavic related.

 

[Kalhas]

Take a look at their autosomal results. Haplogroups are irrelevant if you carry only 15%-35% Balto-Slavic genetic (which most of them do) and the rest mostly paleo-Balkan.

I do not understand so much genetics. However, even if I accept what you say there are a lot of questions that have to be answered. For example, if modern North Macedonians are in a significant proportion paleo balkans why do they speak bulgarian? Bulgarians appeared in the balkans 1400 years ago. Where is their old paleo balkanic language? At least any signs of it. They even do not know that Macedonia is a Greek word. They actually know nothing about their country, when, as paelo balkans, they are supposed to know better. How come their paleo balkanic memory to be erased and behave like skydiving? Or maybe they are not paleo balkans and pretend so? Thus, genetics is a crucial subject but it is not the only science on earth when explanations are needed.

 

[Who Cares?]

I do not understand so much genetics. However, even if I accept what you say there are a lot of questions that have to be answered. For example, if modern North Macedonians are in a significant proportion paleo balkans why do they speak bulgarian? Bulgarians appeared in the balkans 1400 years ago. Where is their old paleo balkanic language? At least any signs of it. They even do not know that Macedonia is a Greek word. They actually know nothing about their country, when, as paelo balkans, they are supposed to know better. How come their paleo balkanic memory to be erased and behave like skydiving? Or maybe they are not paleo balkans and pretend so? Thus, genetics is a crucial subject but it is not the only science on earth when explanations are needed.

Well you see the genetical evidence doesn't support what you were taught in Greek schools about Macedonians. I know its a shocker but also the reality. So it doesn't matter why they use Slavic language. There are many Slavophone older Greeks and they get genetical results that would tie them with classical Greeks moreso than Greeks from some other regions. Its also a no brainer when you think why is it like that, unless you think all those paleo-Balkan people before Slavs just magically disappeared.

Don't mix Macddonians with Bulgarians. Bulgarians are like 40-45% Balto-Slavic on average, so pretty much Slavs. Just a tiny bit less Slavic than Serbs and Bosnians.

 

[Kalhas]

Well you see the genetical evidence doesn't support what you were taught in Greek schools about Macedonians. I know its a shocker but also the reality. So it doesn't matter why they use Slavic language. There are many Slavophone older Greeks and they get genetical results that would tie them with classical Greeks moreso than Greeks from some other regions. Its also a no brainer when you think why is it like that, unless you think all those paleo-Balkan people before Slavs just magically disappeared.

Don't mix Macddonians with Bulgarians. Bulgarians are like 40-45% Balto-Slavic on average, so pretty much Slavs. Just a tiny bit less Slavic than Serbs and Bosnians.

OK I understand. We will never communicate. Be sure that we Greeks will never accept your imaginary world.

 

[Who Cares?]

OK I understand. We will never communicate. Be sure that we Greeks will never accept your imaginary world.

I don't need to give you normal treatment when you come and claim something like this:

As for genetics, as far as I know they are about similar with other slavic populations. This is due to the migration of ancient Macedonians to free Greek speaking areas of eastern Roman empire when Bulgarians and slavs moved into parts of Macedonia about 1400 years ago.
Thus, these two populations are unrelated in any term. Admiring a significant ancient population is accepted but pretending you are connected with them by falcificating history is not.

Which is obviously false.

 

[Kalhas]

I don't need to give you normal treatment when you come and claim something like this:


Which is obviously false.

No problem

 

[Dibran]

Take a look at their autosomal results. Haplogroups are irrelevant if you carry only 15%-35% Balto-Slavic genetic (which most of them do) and the rest mostly paleo-Balkan.

Also, another fact: Some subclades of I2 are paleo-Balkan. This Y-DNA has been in Europe for about 25-30k years. I doubt that all subclades of I2-Y3120 are Slavic related.

I-Y3120 is only 2100-2200 years old, dating to one male ancestor who fathers every single sub-clade under it. It's almost a guarantee none of it has to do with the Balkans. Outside of Slavs, things like East Germanic, Avar, Magyar, or Huns are possible by way of cross-assimilation of Proto-Slavs.

 

[Who Cares?]

I-Y3120 is only 2100-2200 years old, dating to one male ancestor who fathers every single sub-clade under it. It's almost a guarantee none of it has to do with the Balkans. Outside of Slavs, things like East Germanic, Avar, Magyar, or Huns are possible by way of cross-assimilation of Proto-Slavs.

Last time I checked there's no archaeogenetic I2a-Y3120 samples from historical eastern Baltic/Polesia regions, and that's where Balto-Slavic and later Slavic ethnogenesis occurred. So I would not rush to conclusion to say that Y3120 has origin from that area.

 

[Dianatomia]

Well you see the genetical evidence doesn't support what you were taught in Greek schools about Macedonians. I know its a shocker but also the reality. So it doesn't matter why they use Slavic language. There are many Slavophone older Greeks and they get genetical results that would tie them with classical Greeks moreso than Greeks from some other regions. Its also a no brainer when you think why is it like that, unless you think all those paleo-Balkan people before Slavs just magically disappeared.

Don't mix Macddonians with Bulgarians. Bulgarians are like 40-45% Balto-Slavic on average, so pretty much Slavs. Just a tiny bit less Slavic than Serbs and Bosnians.

Modern Greeks and Italians are closer to Paleo Balkan people like Paeonians. And Paleo Balkan people in general. Let’s keep to the facts. Nothing wrong with that.

Ancient Macedonians are likely more Med than modern Greeks. They are not even close to South Slavs.

As for modern Macedonian Slavs, their closest kin on average are in fact the Bulgarians.

 

[Who Cares?]

Modern Greeks and Italians are closer to Paleo Balkan people like Paeonians. And Paleo Balkan people in general. Let’s keep to the facts. Nothing wrong with that.

Ancient Macedonians are likely more Med than modern Greeks. They are not even close to South Slavs.

As for modern Macedonian Slavs, their closest kin on average are in fact the Bulgarians.

Most of the Macedonians with all 4 grandparents of Macedonian origin that I have seen (that have done both autosomal test and, later on, Illustrative DNA) don't have Bulgarians as their genetically closest population. Some get north & central Italy after North Macedonia, and others get Albania or parts of north Greece, and then Italy.

 

[Dianatomia]

Most of the Macedonians with all 4 grandparents of Macedonian origin that I have seen (that have done both autosomal test and, later on, Illustrative DNA) don't have Bulgarians as their genetically closest population. Some get north & central Italy after North Macedonia, and others get Albania or parts of north Greece, and then Italy.

By comparing populations there is no way that Slavic Macedonians on average are closer to Italian populations, rather than Bulgarians. All researches show that. There are some outliers which pull towards Serbs and some towards Greeks.

 

[Who Cares?]

By comparing populations there is no way that Slavic Macedonians on average are closer to Italian populations, rather than Bulgarians. All researches show that. There are some outliers which pull towards Serbs and some towards Greeks.

Can you show me those researches?

I want to see what methodologies they used, for example how did they sampled the testees or how did they complete/made comparison their results between the different archeogenetic groups. I've seen a couple of studies that were obviously very biased or not conducted very well, claiming that Macedonians have like 40% or more Slavic related DNA which is ridiculous. Maybe if they are from Skoplje or some other city near Serbian or Bulgarian border and half of their pedigree is not Macedonian but Serbian or Bulgarian, in which case I can agree.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Can you show me those researches?

I want to see what methodologies they used, for example how did they sampled the testees or how did they complete/made comparison their results between the different archeogenetic groups. I've seen a couple of studies that were obviously very biased or not conducted very well, claiming that Macedonians have like 40% or more Slavic related DNA which is ridiculous. Maybe if they are from Skoplje or some other city near Serbian or Bulgarian border and half of their pedigree is not Macedonian but Serbian or Bulgarian, in which case I can agree.

There was this subpar paper from SANU and Olalde some time ago, Roman Frontier or something... I replicated their methodology on Eupedia for both the pre-print and the published version. But yeah I would not base too much on that, I would run the qpADM or ask someone that knows how to run it and check myself if I was you. Could possibly do it this weekend if I have time.

 

[Dianatomia]

Can you show me those researches?

I want to see what methodologies they used, for example how did they sampled the testees or how did they complete/made comparison their results between the different archeogenetic groups. I've seen a couple of studies that were obviously very biased or not conducted very well, claiming that Macedonians have like 40% or more Slavic related DNA which is ridiculous. Maybe if they are from Skoplje or some other city near Serbian or Bulgarian border and half of their pedigree is not Macedonian but Serbian or Bulgarian, in which case I can agree.

Researches? Honestly, don’t see why should go there really. It’s pretty much common knowledge. Comparing Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians is not paleogenetics. It’s not something new. Virtually every research I have seen in the last decade confirms that.

Now, we can debate about methodologies which estimate Slavic ancestry in modern Balkan populations. The judge is still out on that. We simply need more specimens from the Classical and Roman era. And from different parts of the Balkans.

But the genetic proximity between Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians is pretty much settled.