Magna Graecia

Francis Drake said:
Italian users here deny any influence from Imperial rome, when if we compare the haplogroups, they have more near-eastern haplogroups than Gheghnia has slavic.
Click to expand...

OK, but how are the Ghegs and Slavs even correlated with Italians denying Imperial Rome influence?
 
Francis Drake said:
Well answer to your question is Imperial-Rome influx. Else I don't know how south-italians could be eastern-shifted myceaneans if they are suppose to be Latins + Ancient Greeks.
Click to expand...


no-shit-sherlock.gif
 
ihype02 said:
OK, but how are the Ghegs and Slavs even correlated with Italians denying Imperial Rome influence?
Click to expand...

Was just a side-note to strengthen the point about haplogroups pointing towards imperial introgression rather than bronze-age pippo.

It exists all over Europe btw (though in smaller amounts) no shame : )
 
Excuse me, but let's get some things straight here. I come here once in a blue moon and it's turning into anthrogenica, and on some threads theapricity, with totally unsubstantiated claims being thrown at the wall to see what sticks. That's not how we do things on this site. If people have a point to make, they should present their evidence.

I have repeatedly pointed out, indeed, that there was no significant Slavic impact on Italy, not genetic and not even cultural. I know that both because the historical record is clear and because of the genetics we have, especially the yDna.

As far as the historical record is concerned, by the time the Slavs were on the move Italy was already conquered by the Germanics and they had enough control to turn the Slavs back at the northeastern border. It's all detailed in contemporary chronicles. As for the genetics, you need to have a magnifying glass to find Slavic R1a and Slavic I2a in Italy other than in the areas immediately adjacent to Slavic speaking areas in the northeast. Some of you seem fond of using yDna to support your claims. So am I. In this case, however, it supports my analysis. As for culture, where on earth someone could find evidence of "Slavic" culture in Italy is beyond me. It's ridiculous. Never did I ever say there was such a thing

Sorry, but the Balkans had their barbarian invasions and we had ours. Ours were less impactful than yours. I don't precisely know why, but maybe it was because so many of the Germanics were warriors, not family groups, whereas the Slavs were groups of farmers. Perhaps it was because the plague had a more significant impact in the Balkans. Regardless, it is what it is. What, you like our barbarians better?

To turn to the Greeks, I am on record as saying that I don't know how much of an impact they had, but for goodness' sakes it's clear they would have had a significant impact given the attested record of colonies, plus the omnipresence of Greek merchants in all the ports. Slavic input is found in the absence of any proof whatsoever, but an entire civilization on our shores is discounted? Precisely how much impact we'll wait and see, and yes, we'll wait and see, if someone ever publishes samples from the Bronze Age and early Iron Age in Southern mainland Italy, what those people were like, and how different they were from the Greeks.

If some posters on this thread knew Italian pre-history they would know that the Italics were late comers to the southern mainland, arriving after the Greeks in some cases. Do you think southern mainland Italy was empty? Does that make sense? Someone was trading with the Greeks in the Bronze Age. We have the "pots", so to speak, to prove it. Did they just disappear into smoke? I suggest some reading on the topic. As I've repeatedly said, and still maintain, we don't have Bronze Age samples from mainland Southern Italy, and until we have them, there's a piece of the puzzle missing.

Less there be any doubt about it, I have never said that there wasn't some impact on the Italian genome from the Imperial period. What I don't know is precisely how much and from where. I do know that every sample found in the capital city of an Empire is NOT going to belong to someone who stayed and admixed and reproduced. Is common sense not supposed to be one of the tools we use? For crying out loud, some of the samples from Antonio et al were from the port area where merchants and seamen stayed and no doubt died. Recently we got a bunch of samples, no doubt of slaves, from a dyeworks. You think they were being manumitted willy-nilly and blending into the population? Why, also, did the "trail into the Levant" disappear? We've gone over this ad nauseam.

That's not to say that some slaves weren't manumitted and that some merchants or even people from the provinces who had become wealthy landlords didn't come to Italy and stay. It would be more likely that the slaves with a brighter future would be from the east or Greeks because they were literate, or trained craftsmen etc. So, as I said, I don't deny there was some impact.

However, and I don't care which Lab is doing the analysis, you can't take every collection of bones you find in Imperial Italy and assume they are the bones of people whose dna went into the "pot". You can see it in the Early Medieval samples. Many of the bones were from monasteries. Do you know who stayed at monasteries? Travelers. In the Etruscan paper, if anyone bothered to read the part of the Supplement dealing with the archaeological context, some of the "Imperial" and "Early Medieval" bones had been picked off the ground and brought to a museum. How much, precisely, are we supposed to deduce from that?

That brings me to yDna. The paper on the Etruscans we have recently discussed showed a graphic where the "admixing" agent was a population from the Levant. It may be news to some people, but the Levant is high in a specific clade of J1. There is not enough of that kind of J1 in Italy to make that at all feasible. In fact, take all the J1 in Toscana. You can see the percentages on Maciamo's chart. Toscana has 2%. J2 is a different story, but still it's 11% in Toscana. And no, the Germanics didn't wipe it out because, as we've discussed over and over again, there's little Germanic dna in Toscana.

Francis Drake, whoever he is, wants to hang his hat on yDna, but it doesn't support these claims.

(I really do not get why Albanians haunt every thread on Italian genetics. Do you see us on "Albanian" threads, obsessing on your genetics and language? Why does it matter so much to you? I can understand intellectual curiosity; I certainly have it myself, and I try to analyze all the papers that come out, but this is way beyond that. I really don't understand what you're trying to prove, unless in some way it again goes back to the Greeks.)

Also, might I suggest that we not lose sight of the fact that not all the Roman Imperial samples were Anatolian, much less Levantine.

The latest run I did shows that I'm about 1/4 Imperial Roman. Here is the closest modern match for these remains.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antonio_2019[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]4.37268796[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]4.40196547[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9AFF00, align: right"]4.52567122[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]5.34800374[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CDFF00, align: right"]6.02374468[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E0FF00, align: right"]6.60205271[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]6.97389418[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBD00, align: right"]9.43665725[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9F00, align: right"]10.32837354[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9400, align: right"]10.64679294[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8B00, align: right"]10.91365200[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7800, align: right"]11.46594523[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5E00, align: right"]12.24593810[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5B00, align: right"]12.31293223[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5900, align: right"]12.37012530[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]12.44505524[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5400, align: right"]12.52507086[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.85758920[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.07603533[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3C00, align: right"]13.23058956[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3C00, align: right"]13.23207089[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]13.53561090[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2F00, align: right"]13.62172529[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2B00, align: right"]13.74291454[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2A00, align: right"]13.76111551[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Salento said:
I’m Pugliese, …
If correct, my Y T line has been in Italy since the Mesolithic era, even mutated twice there, and as of now, there are no clades left, … my Final:

bs1Peiq.jpg



… the y Tree says Europe Middle Bronze Age:
AKne3PM.jpg



http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Haplogroup_T-M184_tree.png

Ardea Latin R850 (800 BCE - 500 BCE) was also close by, … though he’s T1a1… and I’m T1a2…
Click to expand...


did you ever find anything on the T1a2 from Lucania.....6500 years ago ?
 
torzio said:
did you ever find anything on the T1a2 from Lucania.....6500 years ago ?
Click to expand...

What’s his ID? … I’ll look in to it :)
 
Angela said:
Excuse me, but let's get some things straight here. I come here once in a blue moon and it's turning into anthrogenica, and on some threads theapricity, with totally unsubstantiated claims being thrown at the wall to see what sticks. That's not how we do things on this site. If people have a point to make, they should present their evidence.

I have repeatedly pointed out, indeed, that there was no significant Slavic impact on Italy, not genetic and not even cultural. I know that both because the historical record is clear and because of the genetics we have, especially the yDna.

As far as the historical record is concerned, by the time the Slavs were on the move Italy was already conquered by the Germanics and they had enough control to turn the Slavs back at the northeastern border. It's all detailed in contemporary chronicles. As for the genetics, you need to have a magnifying glass to find Slavic R1a and Slavic I2a in Italy other than in the areas immediately adjacent to Slavic speaking areas in the northeast. Some of you seem fond of using yDna to support your claims. So am I. In this case, however, it supports my analysis. As for culture, where on earth someone could find evidence of "Slavic" culture in Italy is beyond me. It's ridiculous. Never did I ever say there was such a thing

Sorry, but the Balkans had their barbarian invasions and we had ours. Ours were less impactful than yours. I don't precisely know why, but maybe it was because so many of the Germanics were warriors, not family groups, whereas the Slavs were groups of farmers. Perhaps it was because the plague had a more significant impact in the Balkans. Regardless, it is what it is. What, you like our barbarians better?

To turn to the Greeks, I am on record as saying that I don't know how much of an impact they had, but for goodness' sakes it's clear they would have had a significant impact given the attested record of colonies, plus the omnipresence of Greek merchants in all the ports. Slavic input is found in the absence of any proof whatsoever, but an entire civilization on our shores is discounted? Precisely how much impact we'll wait and see, and yes, we'll wait and see, if someone ever publishes samples from the Bronze Age and early Iron Age in Southern mainland Italy, what those people were like, and how different they were from the Greeks.

If some posters on this thread knew Italian pre-history they would know that the Italics were late comers to the southern mainland, arriving after the Greeks in some cases. Do you think southern mainland Italy was empty? Does that make sense? Someone was trading with the Greeks in the Bronze Age. We have the "pots", so to speak, to prove it. Did they just disappear into smoke? I suggest some reading on the topic. As I've repeatedly said, and still maintain, we don't have Bronze Age samples from mainland Southern Italy, and until we have them, there's a piece of the puzzle missing.

Less there be any doubt about it, I have never said that there wasn't some impact on the Italian genome from the Imperial period. What I don't know is precisely how much and from where. I do know that every sample found in the capital city of an Empire is NOT going to belong to someone who stayed and admixed and reproduced. Is common sense not supposed to be one of the tools we use? For crying out loud, some of the samples from Antonio et al were from the port area where merchants and seamen stayed and no doubt died. Recently we got a bunch of samples, no doubt of slaves, from a dyeworks. You think they were being manumitted willy-nilly and blending into the population? Why, also, did the "trail into the Levant" disappear? We've gone over this ad nauseam.

That's not to say that some slaves weren't manumitted and that some merchants or even people from the provinces who had become wealthy landlords didn't come to Italy and stay. It would be more likely that the slaves with a brighter future would be from the east or Greeks because they were literate, or trained craftsmen etc. So, as I said, I don't deny there was some impact.

However, and I don't care which Lab is doing the analysis, you can't take every collection of bones you find in Imperial Italy and assume they are the bones of people whose dna went into the "pot". You can see it in the Early Medieval samples. Many of the bones were from monasteries. Do you know who stayed at monasteries? Travelers. In the Etruscan paper, if anyone bothered to read the part of the Supplement dealing with the archaeological context, some of the "Imperial" and "Early Medieval" bones had been picked off the ground and brought to a museum. How much, precisely, are we supposed to deduce from that?

That brings me to yDna. The paper on the Etruscans we have recently discussed showed a graphic where the "admixing" agent was a population from the Levant. It may be news to some people, but the Levant is high in a specific clade of J1. There is not enough of that kind of J1 in Italy to make that at all feasible. In fact, take all the J1 in Toscana. You can see the percentages on Maciamo's chart. Toscana has 2%. J2 is a different story, but still it's 11% in Toscana. And no, the Germanics didn't wipe it out because, as we've discussed over and over again, there's little Germanic dna in Toscana.

Francis Drake, whoever he is, wants to hang his hat on yDna, but it doesn't support these claims.

(I really do not get why Albanians haunt every thread on Italian genetics. Do you see us on "Albanian" threads, obsessing on your genetics and language? Why does it matter so much to you? I can understand intellectual curiosity; I certainly have it myself, and I try to analyze all the papers that come out, but this is way beyond that. I really don't understand what you're trying to prove, unless in some way it again goes back to the Greeks.)

Also, might I suggest that we not lose sight of the fact that not all the Roman Imperial samples were Anatolian, much less Levantine.

The latest run I did shows that I'm about 1/4 Imperial Roman. Here is the closest modern match for these remains.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antonio_2019[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]4.37268796[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #96FF00, align: right"]4.40196547[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9AFF00, align: right"]4.52567122[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]5.34800374[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CDFF00, align: right"]6.02374468[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E0FF00, align: right"]6.60205271[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EDFF00, align: right"]6.97389418[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBD00, align: right"]9.43665725[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9F00, align: right"]10.32837354[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9400, align: right"]10.64679294[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8B00, align: right"]10.91365200[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7800, align: right"]11.46594523[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5E00, align: right"]12.24593810[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5B00, align: right"]12.31293223[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5900, align: right"]12.37012530[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_Kosovo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5700, align: right"]12.44505524[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5400, align: right"]12.52507086[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4900, align: right"]12.85758920[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Athens[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF4100, align: right"]13.07603533[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Friuli_VG[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3C00, align: right"]13.23058956[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3C00, align: right"]13.23207089[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3200, align: right"]13.53561090[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2F00, align: right"]13.62172529[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2B00, align: right"]13.74291454[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaloniki[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2A00, align: right"]13.76111551[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian_South[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you.
 
Francis Drake said:
What is your argumentation for why its from these phantom populations rather than the heavily documented and sampled imperial roman migrants? Where are these Iron-Age southern italians who plot like this then (prenistini outlier plots west of south italians)? This isn't even accounting for the (albeit mild) Germanic/Norman input (shown by haplogroups). One also has the content with the fact that certain E and J subclades in South-Italy are certaintly not from the neolithic/chalcolithic, but appear from Imperial migrations. Occams Razor applies here IMO.
Click to expand...

I am not the only one that considers this scenario though. Sarno et al. 2021, Raveane et al 2018, Razib Khan also going on record saying this. The CHG pulse not only came to Italy, but also Albania and the surrounding region. Also, anyone that thinks southern Italians are simply Latin + Greek, is seriously neglecting the other other people involved. Who were the people that lived there in the Bronze Age? You want to talk about phantom populations, than who are these phantom Southern Italians that you can confidently say are Imperial era foreigners, when we don't even have samples from that area in the time periods for analysis? At the very least, the scenario I am proposing is being talked about by academic studies.


Furthermore, you are forgetting R1 and R850 who are Italian samples that are just as east as modern Southerners. Do not be quick to conclude that it must be solely Imperial era samples, with all of these other scenarios and examples at play.
 
The samples pick up steppe ancestry around 1600 BC, but that’s due to a lacuna in the transect. We know now that steppe ancestry arrived in Spain and Greece before 2000 BC. It seems to me unlikely that it would be notably tardy in Italy.

Another thing I want to mention is there is clearly something West Asian (CGH-related) that is moving westward ~2000 BC in a straight shot from Anatolia to the Balkans to southern Italy. This migration seems associated with Y chromosomal lineage J2. Trying to estimate how much exogenous post-Imperial eastern ancestry is present in Southern Italians is somewhat difficult for this reason. The differences between the far south and central and northern Italy may date to the Bronze Age because of this minority component of West Asian ancestry that extended itself across the Mediterranean

https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2021/07/31/italian-genetics-in-the-bronze-age/
Click to expand...

Here is the quote from Razib Khan.
 
Francis Drake,

Southern Italians have non-steppe-related-CHG, much for the same reason why Albanians have so much. You don't have to blame the Imperial era migrants. It was in your ancestry from the Early Bronze Age perhaps.
 
Jovialis said:
Francis Drake,

Southern Italians have non-steppe-related-CHG, much for the same reason why Albanians have so much. You don't have to blame the Imperial era migrants. It was in your ancestry from the Early Bronze Age perhaps.
Click to expand...

How else could the native Balkanites from the Iron Age be southern Italian-to-Tuscan-like, if not for the EBA CHG pulse? This was before the Imperial era.
 
Jovialis said:
How else could the native Balkanites from the Iron Age be southern Italian-to-Tuscan-like, if not for the EBA CHG pulse? This was before the Imperial era.
Click to expand...


Honestly I don't think they were south Italian like, here are my G25, Imperial roman only shows up in 5-population admixture, not changing much. 1.PNG2.PNG

Albanians would naturally have less imperial admix than italians, I myself am eastern-plotting compared to Excine, Dibran, Kelmendasi, and Hawk. They score no imperial roman on my admixture runs.4.PNG
 
Jovialis said:
I am not the only one that considers this scenario though. Sarno et al. 2021, Raveane et al 2018, Razib Khan also going on record saying this. The CHG pulse not only came to Italy, but also Albania and the surrounding region. Also, anyone that thinks southern Italians are simply Latin + Greek, is seriously neglecting the other other people involved. Who were the people that lived there in the Bronze Age? You want to talk about phantom populations, than who are these phantom Southern Italians that you can confidently say are Imperial era foreigners, when we don't even have samples from that area in the time periods for analysis? At the very least, the scenario I am proposing is being talked about by academic studies.


Furthermore, you are forgetting R1 and R850 who are Italian samples that are just as east as modern Southerners. Do not be quick to conclude that it must be solely Imperial era samples, with all of these other scenarios and examples at play.
Click to expand...


Interesting, I never knew about R850, how would an iron-age latin have such high red-sea ancestry?

I am not concluding anything, I'm just saying what the evidence points to as being most likely. Occams Razor and all.

I hope to not offend anyone with my posts, I know many over the years have tried to denigrete Italians by calling them levantines and whatnot... I don't consider any of this to be insulting towards italians.
 
Francis Drake said:
Interesting, I never knew about R850, how would an iron-age latin have such high red-sea ancestry?

I am not concluding anything, I'm just saying what the evidence points to as being most likely. Occams Razor and all.

I hope to not offend anyone with my posts, I know many over the years have tried to denigrete Italians by calling them levantines and whatnot... I don't consider any of this to be insulting towards italians.
Click to expand...

Red sea ancestry is not a legitimate term, it means nothing. I don't see why Red sea ancestry is considered to be a source of anything, considering how deeply mixed a population form that place would be.

The same goes for Levantine. They are predominately, Anatolian_N, mixed with Iran_N, mixed with paleolithic Morroccan Hunter-gatherer dna. These ancestries can be found in Europe too, but at much different percentage distributions.

I have demonstrated in other threads that these places are not sources of genetic monolithic ancestry, like that of Anatolia, or Iran.

The pulse of CHG would be likely related to Anatolian/Iran_N admixed populations come out of Anatolia.

R850 clusters with Anatolia_IA.

It is not about being offended, it is about looking at the evidence and being accurate. I don't give a crap if I have some ancestors that could have come from the middle east in more recent times.

Furthermore, I will reassert the fact that the same CHG in southern Italians, also likely went to Albanians as well, as other southern Europeans.

Raveane et al. 2018 also shows a Anatolain_BA like signal in Albanians, so again, the reason why your Iron Age ancestors were like modern Southern Italians, is because of the CHG pulse that affected the Balkans, including Italy. As noted by Razib Khan.
 
Angela said:
Excuse me, but let's get some things straight here. I come here once in a blue moon and it's turning into anthrogenica, and on some threads theapricity, with totally unsubstantiated claims being thrown at the wall to see what sticks. That's not how we do things on this site. If people have a point to make, they should present their evidence.
I have repeatedly pointed out, indeed, that there was no significant Slavic impact on Italy, not genetic and not even cultural. I know that both because the historical record is clear and because of the genetics we have, especially the yDna.
As far as the historical record is concerned, by the time the Slavs were on the move Italy was already conquered by the Germanics and they had enough control to turn the Slavs back at the northeastern border. It's all detailed in contemporary chronicles. As for the genetics, you need to have a magnifying glass to find Slavic R1a and Slavic I2a in Italy other than in the areas immediately adjacent to Slavic speaking areas in the northeast. Some of you seem fond of using yDna to support your claims. So am I. In this case, however, it supports my analysis. As for culture, where on earth someone could find evidence of "Slavic" culture in Italy is beyond me. It's ridiculous. Never did I ever say there was such a thing
Click to expand...
Angela I was not talking about Slavs in Italy, even Goths did not have a significant impact there and let alone Slavs.

To be honest I did not express myself well but I think it would have been known anyways to claim Slavs left a massive trace in Italy is ridiculous.

You misunderstood me.
 
Francis Drake said:
Honestly I don't think they were south Italian like, here are my G25, Imperial roman only shows up in 5-population admixture, not changing much. View attachment 12967View attachment 12968

Albanians would naturally have less imperial admix than italians, I myself am eastern-plotting compared to Excine, Dibran, Kelmendasi, and Hawk. They score no imperial roman on my admixture runs.View attachment 12969
Click to expand...


Go ahead and use the 2-way modeling too, you can model yourself in all kinds of ways using any populations. Even modern ones, that would make absolutely no sense. This is not reliable.

According to the Reich Lab,

Your ancestors were on a cline between Aegaen_IA, and Slovanian_IA like people. That is why they plot over Italians. Until they were augmented by the Slavs.

68hqRhy.png
 
Jovialis said:
Go ahead and use the 2-way modeling too, you can model yourself in all kinds of ways using any populations. Even modern ones, that would make absolutely no sense. This is not reliable.

According to the Reich Lab,

Your ancestors were on a cline between Aegaen_IA, and Slovanian_IA like people. That is why they plot over Italians. Until they were augmented by the Slavs.

68hqRhy.png
Click to expand...

Furthermore,

Take a look, Anatolia_ChL (Anatola_N+Iran_N) are in a perfect position to have pulled the Mediterranean populations a bit east, from a very early time. I don't think it was people straight from here, but people that came to the west, existing on a cline towards Anatolia_ChL.

The Red sea has absolutely nothing to do with it.
 
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