- Reaction score
- Ethnic group
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- mtDNA haplogroup
I wouldn't read too much into the Late Bronze Age J2a1 sample from Hungary (c. 1200 BCE). The Indo-Europeans had been in the region for nearly 2000 years by then, and it could very well have been a foreigner or an assimilated person from a non-IE culture. After all three Unetice samples tested in this new study turned out to be assimilated local I2 lineages, not steppe lineages.
That could be but which non neolithic farmer population could have come before the Indo Europeans and brought this Haplogroup? There is always a likelyhood for other scenarios but from the data we have so far, an Indo European origin looks like the most likely one.
No one knows precisely what cataclysmic events took place around 1200 BCE, but I would bet that this corresponds to an expansion of J2a people in the Eastern Mediterranean, and that the Sea Peoples were probably predominantly J2a people. After all, all the great ancient seafaring civilizations all presumably had high percentages of J2a, including the Phoenicians who just happen to emerge around 1200 BCE.
Yes but as you said yourself, Sea People emerged later. And I don't know of any other possible migration to Hungary which could have brought J2a there.
One hypothesis of mine is that the Sea Peoples were descended from the Minoan civilization, which had just collapsed c. 1450 BCE. The fall of the Minoan state might have led to Minoan people turning to piracy and raiding the coasts of the East Mediterranean, from Sardinia to the Levant. The Trojans, whose city had been destroyed by the Mycenaeans c. 1200 BCE, may well have been a mixture of R1b-L23 and J2a people, and Trojans who escaped may also have been among the Sea Peoples who sought revenge on Mycenaean Greece and caused its downfall less than 100 years later.
I don't see why Minoans would end up in Hungary especially not just 100 years after their collapse and be able to mix so much with the local population in Hungary, that their genetic make up turns totally French like. Also are we speculating that Sea People gave this J2a individual his ANE- That doesn't seem very likely to me, especially not if all the other late Neolithic, Bronze Age samples from the same region are a mix of WHG and ENF, but have no ANE yet. From who should the J2a individual have gained it's ANE?
In such a context, it would be unreasonable to label a Hungarian J2a1 as necessarily Indo-European.
Not necessary yes, but allot more speaks for an Indo European, than any other theoretical origin.
The point here is, we having two Bronze Age samples from Hungary and only the J2a sample showing ANE admixture and the arrival of ANE admixture in Hungary beeing connected with the arrival of J2a.
Note I am not claiming that J2a came exclusively with Indo Europeans. There are multiple origins of J2a for sure.
But we will see in future with more samples.
OK, I found more info about this project. DNA results will be published in April.
Here is a thread about this:
Your point is taken , but the fasinating thing is that, using your map above
4 x G2a2a found at Halberstadt and
1 x T1a at Jena ( south of Eulau )
clearly the focus should be ...........why this congregation of people in this area
I think part of the R1b story is related to copper miners / smiths so they may have had a much larger range as minority artisans along trade routes than they had as full populations.
In which case if there was any dramatic demographic impact along the Atlantic coast it may have been due to that region's relative under population at the time.
(Just one of my theories but personally I wonder if part of what we think of as "near eastern" actually comes from central Asia i.e. I wonder if there was a metal age demographic transition there as well.)
QLB15D: R*(xR1a1a, R1b1a2a1a)-P224 Quedlinburg, Germany: 3645-3537: Baalberge, MN, :: P1 P230+, R P224+: R1a1a M515-, R1b1a2a1a L151-:
Well Maciamo and how can you explain the distribution of R1B if it came from West Asia through Pontic Steppe,in Europe,compared with how R1B is in current day Europe?
Romans,Germanics,Celts,all bearers of mainly R1B branches were all great warriors,why is no more R1B in Eastern Europe?
If you look at the distribution of R1B,taking Germanic speaking countries it rather seems that they have came from Northern Europe and spread towards South East Europe,for example in Austria there still is a high percentage of R1B and in the same time the South Eastern border of Germanic speakers .
I am not saying that R1B people did not came through Pontic Steppes into Europe,I am just finding hard to believe this,considering the current distribution of R1b in Europe.
Wow. How does anyone fit Y-DNA of QLB15D (Quedlinburg, Baalberge Culture, 3645-3537 BC) in this story?
EDIT: Marija Gimbutas considered Baalberge culture a IE culture. This R* may point to that as well. But that would make the "massive migration from the steppe" story even more complicated.
copper age Hungarian was very related to early Neolithic Hungarian
View attachment 7072
and ötzi 3300 BC was G2a2b-L91
furthermore Catal Hoyuk knew metallurgy and they were related to early Hungarian Neolithic, but not to Levantine/southeast Anatolian PPNB :
so copper melting in the Balkans might be brought by G2a2 as well
What if L23 split east of Anatolia with 1 branch mostly going north to the steppes, some in Anatolia, and another going through Anatolia to the Balkans, and this latter one eventually turning into L21. That would explain "Anatolian" R1b-Z-whatever being the dominant Y-Dna of Yamna people, and Yamna people having new "Near Eastern" or "Armenian like", not found in hunter gatherers. ANE in Europe was most likely due to spread of R1a people. The percentages across Europe don't matter much, as y-dna is useless when it comes to analysing modern ethnic make up, due to founder effect.One thing is clear though. No matter how R1b spread into Europe, the massive founder effect could only be due to farming, not IE stealing women, or other fairy tales. I1's concentration in the north for example is all down to farming, probably picked up from Hungary, not simply 100% remnants of hunter gatherers.
It has been argued that y line I1 brought farming to North Europe as well as blondism. Such combination would never have occurred to me only a year ago. However, I took note that there is still no I1 in ancient finds in Germany and Scandinavia but only in Neolithic Hungary where they had EEF.
And soon we will probably have Y-DNA from Bronze Age Poland! Dr Monika Abreu-Głowacka is extracting DNA from this guy:
They found a Bronze Age warrior in Rogalin near Hrubieszow. Here is facial reconstruction:
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