Neolithic Refuge and Continuity in Transylvania

[Hawk]

South Americans speak a Latin language - maybe that's why they are called latinos. I'm sure some of them also have Italian/Latini yDNA

If we look at Romania which are Latin speakers, they don't have much J2b L283 so I don't think it was spread much by Latin speakers. Some J2B L283 was absorbed by proto Albanians particularly in the north (or was part of proto Albanians)

Precisely what i am talking about. Various different people who speak Latin dialect were called Latins despite having different origins.

Latin was lingua franca and has made tremendous influence in modern world, like many words stem from them and Greek especially in science and literature.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Precisely what i am talking about. Various different people who speak Latin dialect were called Latins despite having different origins.

Latin was lingua franca and has made tremendous influence in modern world, like many words stem from them and Greek especially in science and literature.

That's true, English language has taken over recently due to American media/Hollywood and the internet

 

[Hawk]

Sicily Segesta cemeteries. Couple of V13 there apparently.

Interesting that the authors say neither Muslims neither Christian remains resemble modern Sicilians.

Y-chromosomal haplotypes. Similar to the diversity observed in mtDNA haplotypes, there are
relatively few shared Y-chromosome haplogroups within the Segesta assemblage, outside of the
familial relationships noted above (dataset S1). Nevertheless, the Y-chromosome data suggest
differences between the two cemeteries (dataset S1). For the five individuals buried in the Muslim
cemetery which have sufficient data for inferring the Y-chromosome haplotypes, we observe
haplogroups associated with North Africa (E1b-M81 and E1b-M310.1) [53,54], the Eastern
Mediterranean (J2b-M241) and Western Eurasia (T1a-M70). Within the Christian cemetery, primarily
European-associated haplotypes are observed: branch R1b-M269 [55] (4 of 9 individuals) and typical
Balkan/Eastern Mediterranean haplogroups such as E1b-V13 [56], J2a-M410 [57] and E1b-M78. It is
worth noting that the latter haplogroup can be associated with an expansion of people from the
Balkans to the western part of Europe [53], however, is also found in modern North and East Africa to
Europe and Western Asia [56].

Supporting Information Text from Multi-proxy bioarchaeological analysis of skeletal remains shows genetic discontinuity in a Medieval Sicilian community

Supporting Information Text for ‘Multi-proxy bioarchaeological analysis of skeletal remains shows genetic discontinuity in a Medieval Sicilian community’

rs.figshare.com

 

[Riverman]

The change was quite fundamental going by yDNA:

The medieval period in Sicily was turbulent, involving successive regime changes, from Byzantine (Greek Christian), Aghlabid (Sunni Muslim), Fatimid (Shīʿa Muslim), to Normans and Swabians (Latin Christian). To shed new light on the local implications of regime changes, we conducted a multidisciplinary analysis of 25 individuals buried in adjacent Muslim and Christian cemeteries at the site of Segesta, western Sicily. By combining radiocarbon dating, genome-wide sequencing, stable and radiogenic isotopic data, and archaeological records, we uncover genetic differences between the two communities but find evidence of continuity in other aspects of life. Historical and archaeological evidence shows a Muslim community was present by the 12th century during Norman governance, with the Christian settlement appearing in the 13th century under Swabian governance. A Bayesian analysis of radiocarbon dates from the burials finds the abandonment of the Muslim cemetery likely occurred after the establishment of the Christian cemetery, indicating that individuals of both faiths were present in the area in the first half of the 13th century. The biomolecular results suggest the Christians remained genetically distinct from the Muslim community at Segesta while following a substantially similar diet. This study demonstrates that medieval regime changes had major impacts beyond the political core, leading to demographic changes while economic systems persisted and new social relationships emerged.

Y-chromosomal haplotypes. Similar to the diversity observed in mtDNA haplotypes, there are
relatively few shared Y-chromosome haplogroups within the Segesta assemblage, outside of the
familial relationships noted above (dataset S1). Nevertheless, the Y-chromosome data suggest
differences between the two cemeteries (dataset S1). For the five individuals buried in the Muslim
cemetery which have sufficient data for inferring the Y-chromosome haplotypes, we observe
haplogroups associated with North Africa (E1b-M81 and E1b-M310.1) [53,54], the Eastern
Mediterranean (J2b-M241) and Western Eurasia (T1a-M70). Within the Christian cemetery, primarily
European-associated haplotypes are observed: branch R1b-M269 [55] (4 of 9 individuals) and typical
Balkan/Eastern Mediterranean haplogroups such as E1b-V13 [56], J2a-M410 [57] and E1b-M78. It is
worth noting that the latter haplogroup can be associated with an expansion of people from the
Balkans to the western part of Europe [53], however, is also found in modern North and East Africa to
Europe and Western Asia [56].

R-M269 and E-V13 appear with Christian settlers.

Also in the mtDNA, though less clear cut:

Mitochondrial DNA haplotypes. Analysis of mtDNA analysis showed that all but two individuals
buried at Segesta belong to haplogroups which are common in modern Eurasian populations (dataset
S1). The first exception comes from the Muslim cemetery, where individual SG_BN2 was determined
to belong to mtDNA haplogroup L3e, which is common in Africa [49–51]. In the Christian cemetery,
SG_BN24 was found to belong to macro-haplogroup U6a, a haplogroup which is a signal of both
prehistoric and historic influences between the Iberia peninsula and North Africa since the Upper
Palaeolithic [52]. Together, the high diversity of mtDNA haplogroups and their wide geographic
distribution in both ancient and modern populations make it difficult to differentiate individuals buried
in the Muslim from Christian cemeteries based on their mtDNA haplogroups alone

The background of the Christian population is ill-defined by their analysis:

We applied an outgroup-F3-statistic (X, modern/ancient populations:
Ju_hoan_North) to increase the resolution on population affinities between the group of individuals
from the Christian cemetery, the group of individuals from the Muslim cemetery and previously
published ancient and modern populations (see populations labels in dataset S2). The group from the
Christian cemetery shows no significant relationships but rules out a tendency toward an affinity with
modern European populations (figure S5). In the outgroup-F3-statistic, comparing the group from the
Muslim cemetery to the modern populations as indicated in the PCA (figure 2a and figure S3), we
observe a genetic affinity towards modern South/South-Eastern Mediterranean populations (see
figure S7 and dataset S2) but not North African populations. Neither group shows close affinities with
modern Sicilian populations (see figure S5 and figure S7). The outgroup-F3-statistic with ancient
populations did not show significant results for either group from Segesta (figure S4 and figure S6).
This lack of significant affinity information can be the result of the low numbers of transversions in the
SNP dataset

Probably a very specific mix or unknown source group? I hope the R1b can be broken down into more downstream positions. The Christian samples seem to have a very wide range from more Central European to South Eastern European/East Mediterranean (page 13).

 

[TetaEglantina]

E1b-M78 were Christian? Which sub clade? No ancient M78 in Europe other than V13, they all appear after Roman era

 

[Hawk]

They are probably downstream V13.

I don't think by that time any North African V22, or V12 were Christian, unless some Orthodox Christian Copt or Ethiopian priest/warrior/trader joined them.

But i lean more toward V13, this was probably one of the leading Byzantine lineages in charge prior to Justinian plague.

 

[Hawk]

I would say they look similar to Himeran samples.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Normans were heavily involved in the Balkans, especially Albania at the time. I hope we get lucky and get the first E-V13 medieval Albanian.

 

[broder]

As for Berisha they are the oldest attested Albanian tribe, per record they initially kicked Latins from the place they inhabited.

I assume the Latins were either some J2b2-L283 or R1b tribe.

Point being there is a compact E-V13 S2979 spread everywhere, and FGC33614 was part of them among Proto-Albanians.

I guess you’re not aware that Albanians never referred to the Latin speaking communities as ‘Latin’. It meant something else on those days, it denoted religion.

That may mean that perhaps Berisha were Orthodox in those days.

 

[Hawk]

I guess you’re not aware that Albanians never referred to the Latin speaking communities as ‘Latin’. It meant something else on those days, it denoted religion.

That may mean that perhaps Berisha were Orthodox in those days.

I am aware they referred both to Latin speakers and later on also to Catholics when they started changing religion to Islam.

Enjoy some Adana Kebab since you are in Turkey. Their best dish.

 

[Mmiikkii]

Very interesting.
Both autosomal DNA and now haplogroups confirm (for obvious geographical reasons) that the Balkans are a continuation of the West Asian culture that invented agriculture, husbandry, civilization...

So the Hellenic/Greek civilization (the 1st European one) isn't as uniquely European as the next ones.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The overlooked mtDNA from the Danubian frontier paper.

E-V13 with Balkan IA cluster are 70% mtDNA H. These pattern seems very persistent, it was present even in the Ukrainian IA samples.

 

[Riverman]

The overlooked mtDNA from the Danubian frontier paper.

E-V13 with Balkan IA cluster are 70% mtDNA H. These pattern seems very persistent, it was present even in the Ukrainian IA samples.

We can expect that combination to appear in the Transtisza zone. Probably the mtDNA even before the rise of E-V13 if the pattern being consistent.

On the Merovingian samples:

Riverman1 new and more context for two already used E samples from Medieval Belgium:

Capturing the fusion of two ancestries and kinship structures in Merovingian Flanders

KOS005 Koksijde S05 Tooth root 26-50 XY 0.031 no 0.010 0.103 9.3 0.002 K1a4a1 E2a-Z1919 na 1st KOS011, brother-brother
KOS011 Koksijde S15 Tooth root 26-50 XY 0.231 yes 0.089 yes 0.054 0.226 0.077 18.0 0.004 0.002 K1a4a1 E2a1-V13 0.253 1st KOS005, brother-brother
OLV058 Sint-Truiden 2363 Tooth root XY 1.920 yes 0.018 yes 0.009 0.729 0.150 47.9 0.001 0.010 H1be E

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2406734121#supplementary-materials

FTDNA assigned the
Sint-Truiden 58 sample to E-V13 as well, to be exact to E-CTS5856.
Koksijde 11 remained just E-V13
Koksijde 5 remained E-Z1919 at FTDNA also, but since he's the brother of No 11, this makes three confirmed E-V13 from the Belgian Merovingian sample.

 

[TetaEglantina]

The overlooked mtDNA from the Danubian frontier paper.

E-V13 with Balkan IA cluster are 70% mtDNA H. These pattern seems very persistent, it was present even in the Ukrainian IA samples.

That's normal because H is the most common mtdna in Europe but it has little to do with Ukraine where it has lower rate than most of Europe -

"Haplogroup H is the most common and most diverse maternal lineage in Europe, in most of the Near East and in the Caucasus region. The Saami of Lapland are the only ethnic group in Europe who have low percentages of haplogroup H, varying from 0% to 7%. The frequency of haplogroup H in Europe usually ranges between 40% and 50%. The lowest frequencies are observed in Cyprus (31%), Finland (36%), Iceland (38%) as well as Belarus, Ukraine, Romania and Hungary (all 39%). The only region where H exceeds 50% of the population are Asturias (54%) and Galicia (58%) in northern Spain, and Wales (60%)."

It looks to be related to ANF people -
"MtDNA H had frequency of 19% among Neolithic Early European Farmers and virtually absent among Mesolithic European hunter gatherers."

 

[Riverman]

We know from the abstract about the large sample of the Transylvanian "Scythians" that these were highly mixed, with a strong local element, which had a more Balkan-like autosomal profile. The local element became ever more dominant over time, and continued to dominate in the subsequent La Tene "Celtic" environment.

Interestingly, this trend of the Scythian invaders giving way to the locals being also recognisable in the funerary rites. At the begining, the newcomers and mixed locals did prefer inhumation in the Scythian style, but a minority of local cremating people remained, while at the end of the Ciumbrud Scythianised group, cremation started to become dominant again - just like in the transition from Gáva to Basarabi under Cimmeiran influence. The locals begin to dominate again, also culturally, and so does their funerary rite.

In central Transylvania, particularly along the upper
and middle course of the River Mureș, an archaeo-
logical group developed between the seventh and
fifth centuries BC that was named after the village of
Ciumbrud, now part of the city of Aiud (Alba county),
where a peculiar necropolis was discovered. Most of
what we know about this group is derived from its
necropolises, which were generally small, contain-
ing up to 20–25 flat graves. Inhumation was by far
the most popular funerary rite, with graves generally
aligned on a west-east or northwest-southeast
axis. Cremation is far less common, but it tends to
predominate in the final horizon of this group, as
evidenced at the Băița cemetery, where seven of
the twelve tombs were cremation graves, and even
more clearly at the Uioara de Sus necropolis, where
all fourteen excavated graves contained cremains, a
fact that created doubt as to whether this cemetery
even belonged to the Ciumbrud group.

This is highly important if talking about all these Sythianised groups in the Tisza-Transtisza zone, and we already know from the upcoming publications and research results, that the local "Balkan-like" element never disappeared with the Cimmeirans, Scythians or Celts.
The pretty much "pure" core zone was around Oltenia, throughout most of these periods, but in all the other regions, the invaders and newcomers were in total just a minority, even if they dominated single cemeteries at times.

I expect a good number of the Transylvanian Scythian finds to come from this site, which shows relations to the Vekerzug group:

Our understanding of this archaeological group will
undoubtedly be greatly enhanced by the recent
discovery of the necropolis of Sâncrai, where
dozens of archaeological complexes have already
been excavated and found to contain cremation
and inhumation (the majority) graves, cenotaphs
and one horse burial. The equine grave has signifi-
cantly expanded the available data on ties between
the Ciumbrud group and the Szentes-Vekerzug
group to the west, in what is now Hungary. Located on
the terrace of the River Mureș, just 2.5 km southwest
of the Ciumbrud necropolis, the Sâncrai cemetery
has tremendous potential as a source of information
on this group: the 93 complexes investigated to date
(without exhausting the site) represent no less than
40% of all known Ciumbrud group tombs, of which
there are at least 225.

https://www.man.es/man/dam/jcr:1b23be3c-39f9-458d-8c9b-7c5b61bff713/2022-tar-en-digital-lrv10.pdf

Since there are more than 60 samples from the Transylvanian "Scythians", we can't be sure, but its quite likely local North Thracian/Dacian lineages from the Gáva/Basarabi locals are present between the Scythians and other foreign ones. And similar to Viminacium, any find can be extrapolated to much higher local-regional numbers, since among the cremated ones, the local element was for sure absolutely dominant.

The hotspots for the relatively Northern groups were however the Upper Tisza region/Transcarpathia with the Sanislau group of Vekerzug and Kustanovice on the one hand, and the area of South Western Romania-Oltenia. Since the Ciumbrud group while still very much local, had Scythian admixture, especially in the early phase. The situation is, in this respect, similar to the one in the earlier periods and the later as well. The newcomers form like a wedge, whereas North and South of them the locals have their more undisturbed hotspots and in between many upland communities which survived as well and were partly becoming assimilated or at least influenced by the newcomers.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Normans were heavily involved in the Balkans, especially Albania at the time. I hope we get lucky and get the first E-V13 medieval Albanian.

Rrenjet copied my suggestion/gut feeling and posted about two brothers from the upcoming Sicilian paper being (SGBN18 and 19) being E-Z38456 and possibly early Albanians.

The modeling of the two brothers is awkward, but they are high on Anatolian neolithic component in similar ratio to post-mdv kukes.

I did not even know the E-V13 haplogroup was so Alb-specific. https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z38456/
My assumption was driven by the date the burials, also called Norman(which implied Norman rule) and the fact some of the samples plot near modern Albanians. Real Byzantine samples will be Levant shifted(northern Greeks require heavy Slavic admixture to plot like Albs), and I am not convinced at all Greeks carried high ratios of E-V13 at that time period.

 

[Omino]

Very interesting.
Both autosomal DNA and now haplogroups confirm (for obvious geographical reasons) that the Balkans are a continuation of the West Asian culture that invented agriculture, husbandry, civilization...

So the Hellenic/Greek civilization (the 1st European one) isn't as uniquely European as the next ones.

Hellenic World was never fully "european"(geographically speaking) but more like an aegean/east med one(South Italy+Greece+Western Anatolia+Cyprus)

 

[Hawk]

To me it looks like SGBN 18 and 19 are newcomers, they have higher amount of Yamnaya/Western_HG (a little bit of East_Asian as well) and no Iran_Neolithic/CHG at all, they looks like a mix between ANF + Western_HG/Yamnaya entirely. Two way admixture unlike the other Christian burials which have Iran_N/CHG on their autosomal.

The Christian burials have even more Iran_N/CHG than Islamic burials, well that can make sense because most of Muslims there were ethnic Berbers coming from North Africa.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

SGBN 20 which plots right next to them is also likely E-V13 (E-M78). They plot a little weird but this is a compressed PCA. Right now on the very little data provided, I'd say they plot in the red circle.

These individuals are infants, wonder if they are half mdv Alb and half mdv Sardinian or something.

 

[Riverman]

Going back to the origin of E-L618 in Europe, we had debates in the past about how E-L618 entered Europe in the first place. My favoured hypothesis was always that the ancestor to E-L618 lived in a Natufian related group in the Levante and moved from there, with Impresso-Cardial groups, into Europe.

A new indication for this hypothesis being right being a newly assigned BigY sample from Iraq, which connects with the Impresso-Cardial derived Croatian sample. This was posted on Facebook by Göran:

A new Big Y result from Iraq in E-M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618* forms a new branch with the oldest ancient sample in that entire clade, dating to ca. 6000 BCE, and sharing 4 Y-SNPs.

Zemunica Cave 3 (I3948), Zemunica Cave, Liska, Croatia, 6005-5814 BCE from Mathieson et al. 2018.

Many ancient DNA studies keep on giving interesting connections over time, like in this case 6 years after initial publication.

What this also shows is that this sample from Zemunica is unrelated to the main E-V13 branch after E-L618. So another side branch.