New map of Haplogroup I (all subclades)

Once again to make any conclusions about connections bitween Vandals and Normans in Africa and Sicily we should have at least the following information:
1) Presence of the specific clades of I1 or I2 in the region of interest ("specific" means clades that originated from the region of assumed migration, in this case clades of I1 and I2 from Central Europe and North Europe)
2) Age of these I1 and I2 clades should correlate with the period of presumed migration.

Taking into account the current information about distribution of I1 and I2 clades in Central and Western Europe the possibility that East Germanic tribes (Vandals, Goths and so on) were I1 or I2 folks is close to zero.

Why are you assuming the vandals and goths are I ? ......in the main.

Vandals and Goths are continental R1a markers with other markers tagging along, they did pick up some I though in Scandinavia, but most of the I was absorbed from the steppes.

R1a Scandinavia is not what the goths had, its different plus goths spoke gothic, Scandinavian "goths" speak gutnish. If Goths originated in scandinavia they would have been speaking gutnish all the time.

Also I marker was already present north of the black sea and in Crimea before the Goths arrived

Gothic people were of the Aestian (Lithuanian—Latvian and Old Prussian) origin

Elattova de eunh vemetai Saomatian, paoa men ton Ouistoulan potamon. Upo touj Ouenedaj, Guuwnej. Eita Finnoi.
The less significant people abide in Sarmatia, near the mouth of the Vistula river. Beyond the Venedi are Guthones. Then the Finns.
 
Where did you get that Rus were vikings? All guys claming Rurukid ancestry have clades typical for South Baltic region. It looks like that folks from South Baltic occupied territories of Southern Scandinavia. I guess they were Lords of Scandinavian folks (myths of Asir gods from Eastern Europe become true.)

Here's map of R1a and N1c caldes from South Baltic region:
http://foto.rambler.ru/photos/511dff8e-4e82-46ed-7d9e-78ba339b47af/




The problem is that we have no typical Scandinavian clades not only in Poland and Ukraine but as well in Balkans, Italy and Spain (all places where East Germanic people settled) but at the same time we have traces of migration of some R1a-Z280 clades from South Baltic region to Ukraine, Balkans, Italy and Spain. And do not forget that Goths have not been the only East Germanic tribe and these tribes were numerous enough to destroy Roman Imperia.

isn't z280 claimed to be the ancient Lugii confederation tribes?
 
Why are you assuming the vandals and goths are I ? ......in the main.

It's not me. I'm of completely different opinion. It's a guy from USA several posts above made so incredible smart conclusion on the basis of a map for I haplos. So I tried to make him think in a kinda genealogical way of thinking.))
 
It's not me. I'm of completely different opinion. It's a guy from USA several posts above made so incredible smart conclusion on the basis of a map for I haplos. So I tried to make him think in a kinda genealogical way of thinking.))

oops sorry, you are correct
 
By the way that map misses a large chunk of Z140 in Southern Finland (Baltic Coast) and also a clump of Z140 in Northern Sweden (also on the Baltic Coast).

And Gloomy, I don't want to completely blow your socks off, but I'm of the opinion that proto I1 might have actually developed in Northern Russia/Eastern Finland and moved toward the Baltic when "newer" R1b/R1a/N lines exerted population pressures.

And where did I say Goth can be attributed to hg I? There may be some hg I in Goth, but it was not that way originally. I1 did help Goth scoot on down the road with a "relocation program" which led to much of Goth's later glory.
 
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Interesting concept Templar. I'm thinking Russian nobles (and really European too) started crowding hg I out of leadership roles long before the Communist Revolution though. The last ruling hg I family dates back to 13th century Sweden.

P.S. Good to see you back in the threads Templar!

I wish we had more haplogroup data of famous Russian families (I know there are some, but not enough IMO).

Oh and thanks, I've been really busy the past couple of weeks.
 
So to recap Gloomy, you were correct in pointing out my over-zealous assumption that the hg I in North Africa had to be from the Vandal campaign. In my defense, this was the first map that I've seen a map that had any hg I in North Africa and I knew it had to be there. Been waiting for maps to pick this up for some time in this region, and was beginning to think hg I's daughtering out was much more rapid than any of the experts had realized. To be fair, subclades should be precisely identified and tracked before they can be attributed to any historical movements on the map.

But, the rest of your claims about the Vikings not entering Russia are in direct opposition to any basic history book I've ever read through. I'd like you to address my last set of comments please.

Also I'm of the opinion (based on not only genetic studies but also ancient meta-myth) that proto I1 has been in and around the Finnish/Russian border for over 9,500 years. If Maciamo's maps were color coded showing various hg subclades, they would surely have picked up a looong history of hg I in Russia, from the earliest proto-I1 all the way to Swedish and Danish Vikings. I want to know more about this dearth of Viking activity in Russia that you've talked about...
 
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So to recap Gloomy, you were correct in pointing out my over-zealous assumption that the hg I in North Africa had to be from the Vandal campaign. In my defense, this was the first map that I've seen a map that had any hg I in North Africa and I knew it had to be there. Been waiting for maps to pick this up for some time in this region, and was beginning to think hg I's daughtering out was much more rapid than any of the experts had realized. To be fair, subclades should be precisely identified and tracked before they can be attributed to any historical movements on the map....
The haplogroup I in North-Africa is mostly of the Mediterranean kind (Sardiniani-like) , not Northern European.
 
The haplogroup I in North-Africa is mostly of the Mediterranean kind (Sardiniani-like) , not Northern European.

Wilhelm, could you source that? That does make some sense because of the ancient Egyptian trade with Sardinia (although the maps skew away from Egypt), but for there to be no I1 in North Africa throws me for a loop. The Germanic tribes must have taken their wives with them (which was very common actually for these guys), but then they would have had to taken their wives and ALL of the children with them on the way out. Doesn't seem as plausible.
 
Checked the maps again... nix the part about hg I coming from trade with Egypt. I'm stumped if that hg I isn't mainly I1-- must be really old lines.
 
You say so silly things. How is it possible to make conclusions about movements of people on the basis of a map made just for I haplo?... All your dreams about Vandals with I haplo and vikings in Russia have nothing with reality. There were no vikings in Russia coz there's no haplos in Russia and Central and Eastern Europe with typical clades for Scandinavia.

Yetos, I watched all three videos you recommended in your links. Completely proves my Russia/Viking statements. So Gloomy, I think you've made a rather large mistake here saying there were no Vikings in Russia with typical clades for Scandinavia. I admitted my goof with the hg I in North Africa, you might do the same. The Vikings were all over Russia and the Ukraine--physical remains are being turned up all the time. Please watch the archelogists dig them out for yourself on Yetos's videos.

And a note to the moderator who moved the thread, please allow this exchange to stay attached to this thread. I've owned up to my previous North Africa mis-step and Gloomy should be given the same opportunity. I look like the intellectually challenged one and Gloomy is allowed to "escape" home free if this is divided onto another thread. Fair is fair, am I right?

**Edit** Plus thread is now chopped up and harder to follow. I don't want to look like I'm hogging the conversation with no back and forth, but now it looks that way.
 
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Very interesting 'island hideout' hypothesis nordicfoyer. Would you suggest that maybe something similar happened with the I haplogroup in Eastern Mediterranean islands, such as Crete and Cyprus? These are predominantly J2 and E1b1b islands with later input of R1 from mainland Greece and with a considerable amount of I (~8% in both islands). Would you suggest that the I hg arrived in these islands after the appearance of R1 in continental Europe or maybe later with Hellenic expansions southern and eastern? Interested to see your views on this. Thanks.

 
Very interesting 'island hideout' hypothesis nordicfoyer. Would you suggest that maybe something similar happened with the I haplogroup in Eastern Mediterranean islands, such as Crete and Cyprus? These are predominantly J2 and E1b1b islands with later input of R1 from mainland Greece and with a considerable amount of I (~8% in both islands). Would you suggest that the I hg arrived in these islands after the appearance of R1 in continental Europe or maybe later with Hellenic expansions southern and eastern? Interested to see your views on this. Thanks.

Italians have a decent amount of I ...both islands where held by either venetians, genoese or pisans for hundreds of years. families of Italians migrated to these islands.

could also be brought from the black sea areas... by venetians ships from azov or genoese holdings from Kaffa ( Crimea )
 
Very interesting 'island hideout' hypothesis nordicfoyer. Would you suggest that maybe something similar happened with the I haplogroup in Eastern Mediterranean islands, such as Crete and Cyprus? These are predominantly J2 and E1b1b islands with later input of R1 from mainland Greece and with a considerable amount of I (~8% in both islands). Would you suggest that the I hg arrived in these islands after the appearance of R1 in continental Europe or maybe later with Hellenic expansions southern and eastern? Interested to see your views on this. Thanks.

I hadn't thought of that Alexandros, but it would certainly make sense. It's not like the first hg R invaders/settlers only had hg I on their "radar". Existing European lines such as J2, E, and G would have all been impacted by the population influx from the Russian steppes.

Let me study the island terrain and the y-DNA distribution maps of Crete and Cyprus so I can form a better opinion... but I like your idea.
 
Alexandros, while both Crete and Cyprus fit the perfect island hideway archtype (rocky, mountainous) in terms of avoiding hg R's horses, chariots, bronze weaponry, etc.-- I don't think either of these islands served this purpose. J-M172 has a puzzling distribution map, and the Ingush have some really interesting DNA traits (both paternal and maternal), but if J-M172 hid... it was probably in mountains.

I'm no genius, hg I's frequency patterns jump right off the page indicating island refuges. I was about to give up on J2 and E having a similiar history to hg I in terms of initial hg R avoidance by using rocky/difficult islands... and then I noticed E-V13. E-V13 has almost the exact distribution pattern of Croatian/Bosnian hg I2, which illustrates to me they also hid out on Hvar and the surrounding islands. These islands/islets number in the hundreds off the coast and it would be a nightmare to try and fight with horses much less chariots.

I honestly don't know that much about hg E, but it may be worthwhile for an E expert to follow up on this thinking. Could it be I2 and E-V13 hid out on Hvar at the same time? Nice call Alexandros...
 
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What explains all that I in eastern Turkey, northern Iraq and Iran? Is it more likely to be some very ancient presence, or did Alexander's soldiers have a blast in that area (seeing as how "Macedonia" is shown to be 20-30% I in that map)?

The region you are referring to corresponds to the Kurdistan region. Kurds seem to have high amounts of I.

The case of Macedonia is different. Some of that I could have come after Alexander.
 
My island hideout theory holds up nicely with these maps. To avoid the onslaught of bronze weaponry and horse mounted fighters brought by early hg R, I've postulated that pockets of hg I sought the protection of Hvar, Sardinia, and the multitude of islands in the Bothian Gulf. I might be on to something.

(I still think the Basque hg R arrived in boats though.)

It does seem that I must've been somewhat tucked away in the corners of Europe compared to other groups, especially R1
 

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