New map of R1b-S21 (U106)

This map is nonsense all my British and Irish friends and relatives are r1b L-21. I dont believe this at all. I haven't met anyone with true British ancestry r1b u106 ever. Iceland and scandanavia are mostly r1b L-21 as well.

Looks like somebody went to the school of t.roll and failed all their exams.
 
We now need to get maps for the main U106 subclades and see how the group evolved. The spot around Switzerland/ lower Austria is puzzling as this area is also strong for U152 ; the 2 groups developed in different areas, except on this location. also, the limit to the east (in Austria) looks sharp.
Say Franks were U106, then it would mean that the impact of this group who gave its name to France was really low, while the Saxon had a huge impact on British territories. is that possible ?
 
We now need to get maps for the main U106 subclades and see how the group evolved. The spot around Switzerland/ lower Austria is puzzling as this area is also strong for U152 ; the 2 groups developed in different areas, except on this location. also, the limit to the east (in Austria) looks sharp.
Say Franks were U106, then it would mean that the impact of this group who gave its name to France was really low, while the Saxon had a huge impact on British territories. is that possible ?

The only franks I know of in northern Italy was the salians whose capital was verona
 
We now need to get maps for the main U106 subclades and see how the group evolved. The spot around Switzerland/ lower Austria is puzzling as this area is also strong for U152 ; the 2 groups developed in different areas, except on this location. also, the limit to the east (in Austria) looks sharp.
Say Franks were U106, then it would mean that the impact of this group who gave its name to France was really low, while the Saxon had a huge impact on British territories. is that possible ?

To a certain extent that might be true, the Franks were merely interested in conquering for hegemony than conquering for settlements.

But certainly some regions in France will show relatively high percentages of U106, for instance French-Flanders, Elsass-Lorraine and possibly Normandy(import of Danish & Anglo-Saxon settlers) compared to the rest of France.
 
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Not really; u106 isn't really present in France other tan some few 5-10% areas; not much Germanic S-21 there at all.
 
In France are present R1b u152, P312 and light sprinklings of L-21 (Bretagne province) and light sprinklings of u106 but the latter two are less significant to French R1b.
 
We now need to get maps for the main U106 subclades and see how the group evolved. The spot around Switzerland/ lower Austria is puzzling as this area is also strong for U152 ; the 2 groups developed in different areas, except on this location. also, the limit to the east (in Austria) looks sharp.
Say Franks were U106, then it would mean that the impact of this group who gave its name to France was really low, while the Saxon had a huge impact on British territories. is that possible ?

I read an interesting thing on R1b-L48 (downstream from U106) the other day - in Flanders it is heavily biased towards the coast along with I1, while non R1b-L48 and R1a were heavier in the east. I do not know how this compares exactly in the Netherlands, France, Germany or Britain exactly.
 
The only franks I know of in northern Italy was the salians whose capital was verona

Aleramici in Piedmont were Franks. The Franks in Italy replaced throughout North and Central Italy the Lombards/Langobardi
 
Not really; u106 isn't really present in France other tan some few 5-10% areas; not much Germanic S-21 there at all.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/04/bearers-of-french-surnames-in-flanders.html

French-Flanders was once part of Flanders and even linguistically (to a certain degree it still is).

Freiburg am Rhein (-> http://www.freidok.uni-freiburg.de/volltexte/7512/ ) has also high U106 percentages. I don't see any reason why this is not the case on the other side of the Rhine in Alsace-Lorraine which historically was linguistically German not French.

So yes, there are parts in France that show much higher percentages of U106 in France compared to the rest of France.

The rest of France is of course a different matter.
 
maybe I need glasses,is it showing 20-30-or40 percent in england
 
I had thought for a while that the Balkans should have a few percents of R1b-S21 owing to the presence of I1 and I2b1. There wasn't enough data to confirm it yet. However Karachanak et al. (2013) reported 1.2% of R1b-S21 in a major study of Bulgarians, while Regueiro et al. (2013) found 1.9% of the same subclade (named M405 in the study) among Serbians. I have also checked the FTDNA project for Greece and noticed that 6 out of the 35 R1b members had the value DYS390=23, which in most cases corresponds to S21. Since about 15% of Greeks are R1b, that would mean that S21 is approximately 2.5% (anyway over 1%). Consequently I have added most of the Balkans in the 1-5% colour range on the map.
 
I had thought for a while that the Balkans should have a few percents of R1b-S21 owing to the presence of I1 and I2b1. There wasn't enough data to confirm it yet. However Karachanak et al. (2013) reported 1.2% of R1b-S21 in a major study of Bulgarians, while Regueiro et al. (2013) found 1.9% of the same subclade (named M405 in the study) among Serbians. I have also checked the FTDNA project for Greece and noticed that 6 out of the 35 R1b members had the value DYS390=23, which in most cases corresponds to S21. Since about 15% of Greeks are R1b, that would mean that S21 is approximately 2.5% (anyway over 1%). Consequently I have added most of the Balkans in the 1-5% colour range on the map.

From what I'm seeing of the limited R1b Y STRs and SNPs in those studies, the R1b in the Balkans is most likely to be predominately L23xL51. I don't think this can be confirmed but many think that almost all L23xL51 there will be Z2103+/Z2105+.

The only proxy frequency map I've seen for L23xL51 (possible Z2103/Z2105) is from the Lucotte study this year.
http://www.pontecorboli.com/ejournals/ija/2013_AIJA1.pdf
See pages 1-12.

I haven't seen anything STR or U106/S21 subclade SNP wise that would lead me to think U106/S21 is older in the Balkans than in Central and Western Europe, but I don't know.

We aren't really measuring reliability on this, but I don't think DYS390=23 is a reliable indicator for U106/S21, though. It is the clear mode for all of the U106/S21 in Northern Europe and England. However, the WAMH mode of 390=24 is more common for U106/S21 as you go east and southeast of Germany, according to the U106 project admins.

I personally think it is a moot point in most of the Balkans, anyway, as we have mostly the L23xL51 types there. Your 1-5% range choice is probably quite fair.
 
From what I'm seeing of the limited R1b Y STRs and SNPs in those studies, the R1b in the Balkans is most likely to be predominately L23xL51. I don't think this can be confirmed but many think that almost all L23xL51 there will be Z2103+/Z2105+.

The only proxy frequency map I've seen for L23xL51 (possible Z2103/Z2105) is from the Lucotte study this year.
http://www.pontecorboli.com/ejournals/ija/2013_AIJA1.pdf

This has been known for many years. That's also what I explain on my R1b page.


I haven't seen anything STR or U106/S21 subclade SNP wise that would lead me to think U106/S21 is older in the Balkans than in Central and Western Europe, but I don't know.

Why would it be older ? You are not thinking that U106/S21 in the Balkans are leftover from the Bronze Age migrations of R1b ? That would be very unlikely. S21 most probably expanded after it reached northern Europe. The S21 is the Balkans today was brought by Germanic migrations, like the Goths.

We aren't really measuring reliability on this, but I don't think DYS390=23 is a reliable indicator for U106/S21, though. It is the clear mode for all of the U106/S21 in Northern Europe and England. However, the WAMH mode of 390=24 is more common for U106/S21 as you go east and southeast of Germany, according to the U106 project admins.

DYS390=23 corresponds to the so-called "Frisian branch" of S21, which is L48+ and its subclades. That is the most prolific branch of S21, accounting for about 80% of all members of that haplogroup. Some L48- also have DYS390=23, and actually even a minority among other varieties of R1b than S21 have this value as well. So we can never be sure that all DYS390=23 is indeed S21. However, if we deduct the non-S21 with DYS390=23 and add the S21 with DYS390=24, they more or less cancel each other out. That is why statistically speaking looking at DYS390=23 is fairly reliable, even though we cannot know for sure which individual is truly S21.
 
I think the french samples are somewhat tiny - I should not be surprised if some newer surveys found denser Y-R1b-U106 in N and E France, at first in Flabders and Alsace-Lorraine - fewer maybe in Normandy and Burgundy-Lyonnais-Savoywhere germanic invaders were surely more on the scandinavian side than on the frankish-firson side
France is very boring with its attitude concerning DNA non-medical studies
 
No, u106 is legitimately rare in France. Historically, there where two west-central continental Celtic groups, the Germanics ,who inhabited Germany, east of the Rhine river. And then there where the Gauls, who inhabited mostly what is today France and Belgium. There where also celtiberians, celts that had spilled into Iberia (Spain,Portugal) who have the ancestral form of P312 known also as S116. The Belgae (Belgians) where a branch-off of Gauls that had moved there from not too far away (note that there is also u106 in belgium, unlike france.)These Gauls would colonize Switzerland and pour across the alps into the po valley basin, the "Gallic" settlement area.the u106 branch however, is most frequent in holland, which is a country with a very Germanic touch, unlike Franco-Swiss Switzerland or Belgium. U106 is found in most Germans, Austrians, Dutch as well as Danish, swedish, Norwegian R1b, not to mention many English (Anglo-Saxon R1b and some in Scotland but none in Ireland.)
 
No, u106 is legitimately rare in France....
I agree, setting aside Alsace-Lorraine.

It seems to drop like a rock starting from Caen and going west and south.

I think this must mean that U106 was screened out from the Gaul, and probably from England for a long time. I think this U106 distribution (or lack of it) is unlikely if U106 had been in the Low Countries or Scandinavia for a very long time, back into pre-Germanic times. Folks in these regions were supposed to be good seafaring peoples so it should have been easy for them to make a mark along the western shores of the North Sea or down the Atlantic Coast.

These might be clues for the origination of U106. The most often cited hypothesis I hear about as far as Proto-Germanic is that it developed in the Jastorf Culture. Hallstatt supposedly influenced Jastorf but I don't think U106 was introduced into Jastorf by the Hallstatt people or we would have seen more U106 leak westward with the Hallstatt folks at earlier times, reaching the Atlantic seaboard.

Jastorf was supposed to be born out of the Nordic Bronze Age and Hallstatt but U106 seems unlikely to have been a major player in either.

There is a counterpoint to this line of thinking. That counterpoint would be that Celtic domination along the Atlantic, Isles and Gaul was so strong that Germanics and Pre-Germanics were screened out of the Isles and the Atlantic up until Anglo-Saxon times. I disagree because the Celtics were not an organized nation with a uniform defense. They were simply bands of loosely related tribes. The Celtics probably fought each other as much as anybody else and I'm sure would have no compunction with allying with Germanics in their batters. Remember Vortigern? or Diarmait Mac Murchada (MacMurrough)?

If U106 wasn't a strong player in the Nordic Bronze Age or Hallstatt how did it get into Jastorf? It would have come from the east or southeast. You have to start looking at the Pomeranian or Lusitanian Cultures.

Genetically speaking, the WAMH modal for DYS390 is 24 and U106's proportion of 390=24 goes up as you go east or south from Northern Germany.

We also see that another partner in the Germanic formation, I1, may have an early easterly appearance as well. Ken Nordtvedt is now saying he thinks I1 originated in the Old Prussian tribal areas - the vicinity of the Baltic states. Nordvedt posted,
"This reinforces my hunch that the origins of I1 some 4500 years ago will be more to the east than earlier expectations --- maybe Prussia or Pomerania. Perhaps the late blooming I1 moved up into the north German plain along the Elbe corridor, while M223+ Z161+ moved up using more the Danube/Rhine route?"
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-06/1372263039
 
My fertile streak isn't over yet. Here is a brand new map of haplogroup R1b-S21, associated with the migration of Germanic peoples, especially tribes originating around the modern Netherlands, North-West Germany, Denmark and Norway, such as the Anglo-Saxons, the Franks, the Lombards, as well as the Danish and Norwegian Vikings.

Note the hotspots around the Belgian provinces of Hainaut and Luxembourg, as well as in the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, obviously of Frankish origin. Another hotspot is lower Austria, probably of Lombardic origin.

Lower frequency around the Harz mountains in Germany, due to the higher percentage of I2b.

Haplogroup-R1b-S21.gif

Are you so sure that the distinction is that sharp between England and Wales? One of Busby's sample groups for Wales (with a small but reasonable size) had it at 9%, and there is known English, Flemish and Norman settlement in many parts of South Wales in particular. I'd expect Wales to be similar to Cornwall or Eastern Ireland in colouration overall, with more in the south and south-east, and less in the north-west and west-central.
 
I suppose it's an ancient enough map?
sure there are a bit more R-U106 in Wales even if less than in England, for I think - (about 4-9% according to regions?) maybe more in South towns (Cardiff, Swansea, Newport)-
 
According to Sarno et al the U106 is very high (11,54%) in Catania why?swabian legacy?
 

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