Origin of the Eastern Romance or Vlach Peoples

Concerning the Central-East Asian admixture: Such admixture was surely present, even higher in Transylvania (early Szekler for example), but that its pretty widespread among Romanians speaks for a more Southern/Eastern source of the admixture imho.

If I use Dai, which is not the closest fitting reference anyway, but just for the argument and as a quick shot, you see that practically all Romanians get it. Its not that high, but its noticeable even in comparison to some of the direct neighbours, therefore it should be something real for the early ethnogenesis:

Romanian-EA.jpg
What samples are you using?
 
The standard G25 Romanian and Moldovan samples:

As a tendency, the Romanian samples from G25 might have a bit more German and Hungarian admixture than the Moldovans. Especially sample A374 has a minor but significant Central European pull.
 
Last edited:
I primarily use G25 and if I convert I usually do it with Eurogenes K36. Too bad no easy copy & paste is possible with that format.
Their is tool where you can convert k13 to g25 it's free too
 
Their is tool where you can convert k13 to g25 it's free too
I know, I just prefer K36 and for using it I have to type it manually, since I can't just copy & paste the block unless I play with an excel first. But I might take a closer look anyway.
Interesting that Maramures/Satu Mare has the highest German shift among the Romanians.
 
Also as I was reading Capidan lately, he seems to find more old calque's and isogloses between Romanian and Albanian than between Aromanian/Meglen-Vlach and Albanian like for example the rotacism r -> n which is more prevalent in Romanian and Istro-Romanian than in the other two eastern Romance languages.
Which is quite interesting by itself and which could be showing a close relationship between Albanians and Romanians quite late and even after the split which likely took place in the 9th or 10th century.

My believe is that there was a common border between the Albanians and the Romanians somewhere in south-east Serbia.

From
Ilona Czamańska
(Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań)
Vlachs and Slavs in the Middle Ages and Modern Era



The author here makes very good point. The Bulgarian Empire didn't exist for more than a century when these accounts were made. What was known as Bulgaria in the 11th, 12th and 13th century was the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria which was situated mainly in present North Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria:



The author just makes one mistake when assumes this province of Vlachia was somewhere in the vicinity of modern Kumanovo in North Macedonia because of the specific name related to the Cumans. What was Cumania back then was modern Valachia in South Romania. Accordingly, this province Vlachia must have been situated in the northern regions of the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria or modern Eastern Serbia and north-western Bulgaria and directly bordering Danube and modern Valachia which was of course Cumania back in the 12th century.

So the Vlachs mentioned in these accounts are most likely direct ancestors of the modern Romanians.
These would explain the close relationship between these Vlachs and the Cumans and why more often than not they were mentioned together in the historical accounts as some sort of hybrid Vlach-Cuman race as by the time Cumans disappeared, the Romanian Vlachs started massively to settle north of Danube and intermingling with these Cumans.
These process probably already started in the 11th century with the breakup of the First Bulgarian Empire.
Idk about vlachs and cumans mixing because modern Romanians doesn't get any turkic only some north east Romanians do
 
Last edited:
From
Ilona Czamańska
(Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań)
Vlachs and Slavs in the Middle Ages and Modern Era



The author here makes very good point. The Bulgarian Empire didn't exist for more than a century when these accounts were made. What was known as Bulgaria in the 11th, 12th and 13th century was the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria which was situated mainly in present North Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria:

From
Ilona Czamańska
(Adam Mickiewicz University in Poznań)
Vlachs and Slavs in the Middle Ages and Modern Era



The author here makes very good point. The Bulgarian Empire didn't exist for more than a century when these accounts were made. What was known as Bulgaria in the 11th, 12th and 13th century was the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria which was situated mainly in present North Macedonia, Eastern Serbia and Western Bulgaria:



The author just makes one mistake when assumes this province of Vlachia was somewhere in the vicinity of modern Kumanovo in North Macedonia because of the specific name related to the Cumans. What was Cumania back then was modern Valachia in South Romania. Accordingly, this province Vlachia must have been situated in the northern regions of the Byzantine themata of Bulgaria or modern Eastern Serbia and north-western Bulgaria and directly bordering Danube and modern Valachia which was of course Cumania back in the 12th century.

So the Vlachs mentioned in these accounts are most likely direct ancestors of the modern Romanians.
These would explain the close relationship between these Vlachs and the Cumans and why more often than not they were mentioned together in the historical accounts as some sort of hybrid Vlach-Cuman race as by the time Cumans disappeared, the Romanian Vlachs started massively to settle north of Danube and intermingling with these Cumans.
These process probably already started in the 11th century with the breakup of the First Bulgarian Empire.
I read that curtea de arges Wallachia first capital was built in 1200s so in my opinion vlachs had to come before 13 century
 
Last edited:
The K13 coordinates plot OK on the PCA, but in the admixture runs they are not directly compatible with regular G25, because they rather pick up other K13 converts than G25 regulars and the same is true vice versa.

However, among themselves, these K13 coordinates seem to be comparable and they plot reasonably well (not perfect) on the PCA.

I therefore made first a custom PCA for the Romanian samples:

Romanian-PCA1.jpg


One can see the dense cluster for the Romanian core and those which deviate in a Southern (Moldova Gagauzia and Tighina), Slavic (Moldova Balti), Hungarian (Maramures) and German (Satu Mare) direction.

In the centre of the Romanian core is clearly Oltenia in my opinion.

The next thing I did was using Oltenia as the core group and all the main minorities and neighbours as additional references for an admixture run - of course they are not all ideal, but like I wrote before, regular G25 don't get picked up as much. With regular G25 one could use German Erlangen, Hungarian, Russian Kursk and Greek Laconia as proxies, but because of the different original formats, that doesn't work as well.

This was the result of the admixture run sorted by Oltenia-like percentages:
Romania-Admixture1.jpg



For some models it causes troubles to differentiate between Slavic, Hungarian and German, because Hungarian is to large degree a mix of German and Slavic, and even the Southern admixture is similar to Romanians.
Anyway, I think its a nice approach and the Oltenia sample is really a good representative for core Romanian, with many other regions showing varying degrees of admixture from the neighbours and minorities.
 
The K13 coordinates plot OK on the PCA, but in the admixture runs they are not directly compatible with regular G25, because they rather pick up other K13 converts than G25 regulars and the same is true vice versa.

However, among themselves, these K13 coordinates seem to be comparable and they plot reasonably well (not perfect) on the PCA.

I therefore made first a custom PCA for the Romanian samples:

Romanian-PCA1.jpg


One can see the dense cluster for the Romanian core and those which deviate in a Southern (Moldova Gagauzia and Tighina), Slavic (Moldova Balti), Hungarian (Maramures) and German (Satu Mare) direction.

In the centre of the Romanian core is clearly Oltenia in my opinion.

The next thing I did was using Oltenia as the core group and all the main minorities and neighbours as additional references for an admixture run - of course they are not all ideal, but like I wrote before, regular G25 don't get picked up as much. With regular G25 one could use German Erlangen, Hungarian, Russian Kursk and Greek Laconia as proxies, but because of the different original formats, that doesn't work as well.

This was the result of the admixture run sorted by Oltenia-like percentages:
Romania-Admixture1.jpg



For some models it causes troubles to differentiate between Slavic, Hungarian and German, because Hungarian is to large degree a mix of German and Slavic, and even the Southern admixture is similar to Romanians.
Anyway, I think its a nice approach and the Oltenia sample is really a good representative for core Romanian, with many other regions showing varying degrees of admixture from the neighbours and minorities.
Oltenia and my opinion arges county makes sense as the core Romanian core because that were the earliest vlachs leaders were mentioned
 
Last edited:
Another (standard) PCA (Europe1):
Romanian-PCA3.jpg


Note the pretty tight cluster close to Oltenia and the outliers at the fringes.
 
Another (standard) PCA (Europe1):
Romanian-PCA3.jpg


Note the pretty tight cluster close to Oltenia and the outliers at the fringes.
You should be Bucharest there. It be cool where they plot on this pca
 
Although this is true, some people's interpretation is wrong regarding this. Even though Meglen Vlach is closer to Romanian than Aromanian is to Romanian, it's still closer to Aromanian than Romanian.

Theodor Capidan has made extensive analysis regarding these languages and found more isogloses and phonetic changes shared between Aromanian and Meglen-Vlach than between Meglen-Vlach and Romanian.
Some of these are very old and present clear division between southern and northern Eastern Romance languages.
For example, the change ci > ts, where we have the vulgar Latin word cīnque and it's descendants in Romanian and Istro-Romanian cinci and ćinć respectively but tsintsi in Aromanian and Meglen-Vlach.
Oh of course. I never meant to imply otherwise. I tried to choose my words carefully to convey that while it is closer to Romanian than Aromanian *is*, it is not closer to Romanian than it is to Aromanian. Maybe some people do misinterpret that, yes.

But it is interesting that what eventually became standard (northern/"Daco") Romanian may have had a longer time alongside proto-Albanian than Aromanian did? Even though now Aromanian has drawn closer to it in some ways (at least the variant there in Albania), like in Moscopole or Voskopojë.

So the Vlachs mentioned in these accounts are most likely direct ancestors of the modern Romanians.
These would explain the close relationship between these Vlachs and the Cumans and why more often than not they were mentioned together in the historical accounts as some sort of hybrid Vlach-Cuman race as by the time Cumans disappeared, the Romanian Vlachs started massively to settle north of Danube and intermingling with these Cumans.
These process probably already started in the 11th century with the breakup of the First Bulgarian Empire.

Right, although I suppose it indicated the political dominance and leadership the Cumans had in the area, rather than really implying they were some truly hybrid racial group like something you would find in Central Asia, as they didn't make a lot of impact on them genetically or were just a smaller group among a larger native population. I don't think the area north of the Danube when the Vlachs arrived were pure Cumans from the steppes by any account, just that the people there were referred to in chronicles as Cumans due to the current elites' culture and language (but again, why are there so very few words from non-Turkish Turkic in Romanian then?). But northern Bulgaria was known as Vlachia; I thought it was a joint sort of union or cooperation between the Vlachs and Bulgarians there? And Peter and Asen of the Second Bulgarian Empire being possibly of Vlach or partial descent.
 
Oltenia and my opinion arges county makes sense as the core Romanian core because that were the earliest vlachs leaders were mentioned
Yeah I think so too. My background is from Oltenia (my dad's fam from Caracal and Craiova) and my mom's mostly from Turnu Severin, although she also has some Aromanian from Greek Macedonia that moved to Romania in the late 19th cent.

Here's an Oltenian folk dance


And a folk costume from the region

1701925930838.png

1701925941879.png


But I guess all these Balkan dances have a common theme

The Calusari is one famous acrobatic dance that is often done in the Oltenia (and other Romanian regions), and apparently the dance has also spread to Bulgaria and North Macedonia

1701926072508.png

1701926115530.png

1701926236587.png



But you get Vlach vibes in different regions all over the country. Parts of Ardeal even have similar fiddle sounds with the strange Balkan time signatures that you also find in southern Vlach music from what I heard. Like some from the Tara Motilor area here

 
The bagpipe and flute is also found in different Vlach and Romanian music, attesting to the importance of sheep in these cultures (using the stomachs as the bags)

1701928131202.png
Romanian bagpipe (cimpoi, or sometimes gaida regionally)


Here are some Vlachs from northern Serbia (but these are very closely connected to southwestern Romania itself, in the Banat and Oltenia regions. It's uncertain whether they moved from there to Serbia in like the 17th-18th century of if they always existed there in parallel and maintained a similar dialect.


I also have seen some folk songs in Megleno and Aromanian that have similar patterns, lyrics, and themes to ones in Romania, although they have different influences and kind of go in a different direction sometimes. It's interesting. I think some of that was due to later cross-influences of transhumant shepherds who moved north and south. I'd have to find some good specific examples.

By the way here is a page on the Common or Proto Romanian language, although it still needs work

 
Yeah I've spoken to both Romanians and Aromanians about this issue over time (it helps that I have some background from both sides) and although many resisted the idea at first, they gradually kind of came around to it.

Unlike some other people, I'm not gung-ho about any one idea or agenda, and I realize the issue is inconclusive and open to interpretation. I honestly wish we would someday get more evidence to fill in the gaps of the picture, but I see that as doubtful since these people largely didn't leave written records or much concrete evidence of their habitation.
If onley more Romanians and The "Vlach" in The balkans took more dna test that som we could see what subclade of haplogroups they have, that would help tremendously.
On myheritage I know that manay Aromanias get Romania at least middle to high on genetic group confidence level
 

This thread has been viewed 5579 times.

Back
Top