Pcinja Culture group - possible source for R-Z2705?

[PaleoRevenge]

I found an interesting paper from Bulatovic, where he notes a peculiar Iron Age culture in north-east Macedonia and south-east Serbia, which broadly falls under the channeled ware umbrella but it has clear Brnjica cultural features and based on the footnotes, they inhumated. This strongly suggests an act of defiance/independence against the surrounding E-V13 population around them, as Brnjica used to cremate too, the motivation to switch is to differentiate oneself from rival group.

Location and it's cultural features make it a good candidate for the founding population of R-Z2705, the timing of R-Z2705 branching matches Pcinja II phase, which was the height of this culture. The geography is in a very agreeable position where later in antiquity a E-V13 population absorbs R-Z2705 among it's ranks.

Geography wise, this culture seems to correspond with northern Paeonians.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250151160_South_Morava_Basin_in_the_transitional_period_from_the_Bronze_to_the_Iron_Age

 

[Riverman]

To associate the haplogroup with the Paeonians is also my favourite hypothesis. Concerning the differentiation of Thracians vs. Paeonians, this is a difficult task, since the available evidence is sparse.

The Agrianians for example being sometimes considered Paeonians, sometimes Thracian.

We can read about the situation in the region in which R-Z2705 was likely centered:

By the end of the 4 th century BC, the Paeonian community of the
Agrianes, which probably remained without a ruler, was annexed by
Audoleon, the king of Paeonia, (ca. 315-285/4 BC). 11 Afterward, in the
tumultuous beginnings of the 3rd century BC, due to the impact under
the invasion of the Celts, and probably more so under the invasion of
the Dardanians, the Agrianes lost the existential supremacy in the ma-
in territories of Kosovo, Polog and the Skopje-Kumanovo region. 12
Namely, Agatharchides of Cnidus states that among the Dardanians
there were people who owned one thousand or more slaves. 13
F. Papazoglu attempts to explain this unusual phenomenon in
detail, but without considering that it is difficult to expect a galloping
increase in the birth of the Dardanians in such a short time as to inha-
bit the large newly conquered terriotories. 14
The Dardanians set off from their home country west of the val-
ley of the Bel (White) Drim river at the beginning of the 3rd century BC,
by no means taking advantage of the demographic draining of a large
number of young Agrianes who left for Alexander III's expedition to
Asia and the Celtic invasion of the Balkans in 280/279 BC. They con-
quered the regions of Kosovo, Južna (South) Morava, possibly Polog
and the regions of Skopje and Kumanovo.

https://repository.ukim.mk/bitstream/20.500.12188/28798/1/67.1-2.08.-lilcic-adams-v.-lilcic-s.-an-agrianian-paeonian-city-near-pcinja-kumanovo-region.pdf

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Pcinja culture had partial basis in Brnjica, while the southern Paeonian territories according Macedonian archeology has basis on the previous Ulanci culture. I would think the unity of both groups came as the result of the LBA turmoil in the transitional period, they must have forged a mutual alliance to beat back the channelled ware invaders and eventually prevailed. Another clue is in the spread of the so called Paeonian bronze objects in the 7th and 6th century. These are religious objects and for them to be adopted by Pcinja territory without any evidence of a migration would suggest the two groups were in some kind of alliance and saw themselves as part of a same group geopolitically.

I did not know that the Illyrian Dardani was pushed back all the way to white Drin. Looks like their attempt to take over the entire Vardar valley in 750 BC ended in massive blow from Cimmerian intervention, which was followed by a northern Paeonian expansion into Kosovo.

BTW Modern R-PF7566 center of gravity and diversity matches quite well with the Brigoi enclaves around Diber-Peshkopi.

 

[Johane Derite]

I found an interesting paper from Bulatovic, where he notes a peculiar Iron Age culture in north-east Macedonia and south-east Serbia, which broadly falls under the channeled ware umbrella but it has clear Brnjica cultural features and based on the footnotes, they inhumated. This strongly suggests an act of defiance/independence against the surrounding E-V13 population around them, as Brnjica used to cremate too, the motivation to switch is to differentiate oneself from rival group.

Location and it's cultural features make it a good candidate for the founding population of R-Z2705, the timing of R-Z2705 branching matches Pcinja II phase, which was the height of this culture. The geography is in a very agreeable position where later in antiquity a E-V13 population absorbs R-Z2705 among it's ranks.

Geography wise, this culture seems to correspond with northern Paeonians.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/250151160_South_Morava_Basin_in_the_transitional_period_from_the_Bronze_to_the_Iron_Age

Very very interesting, i guess these are more or less the same people that lazic calls the "dented ware" people. Its hard to know because i only have access to minimal papers through google translate.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Very very interesting, i guess these are more or less the same people that lazic calls the "dented ware" people. Its hard to know because i only have access to minimal papers through google translate.

I had to go to the source, dented ware is definitely something else, from 1-2 centuries later and based on the description seems to be Bassarabi impulse.

In Kosovo-Metohija, to the settlements and hoards of the 8th –7th century BC correspond the contemporaneous necropolises at Široko (near Suva Reka), Vlaštica and Karagač, where there are cremation burials under low mounds, a newly-introduced burial rite in the areas. Discussion about the origin of the pottery and bronze artefacts of the 8 th –6 th centuries BC from the settlements in Kosovo-Metohija, the south Morava valley and the upper Vardar valley ended long ago with the conclusion linking the decoration and shapes of these inds with the lower Danube and eastern Balkan areas. Thus, the archaeological finds dated to the 8th–6th centuries BC clearly show the appearance in the future Dardanian area of a people closely related to the inhabitants of Thrace and the lower Danube Basin.

КО СУ БИЛИ ДАРДАНЦИ? Who Were the Dardani?

КО СУ БИЛИ ДАРДАНЦИ? Who Were the Dardani?

www.academia.edu

The only mystery for me is the Glasinac culture, it clearly expanded in the same time frame as dented ware, but it seems it did not expand much into Kosovo? Where did the Glasinac culture bearers that invaded the entire Vardar valley come from? I'd like to see an answer to that part. But based on what I am reading.

After LBA most of Kosovo is channelled ware territory.
In the 9th century BC there is some intrusion by Pcinja culture but it limited to eastern parts of Kosovo.
In the 8th-6th century, it is mostly under dented ware who are Bassarabi derived, so the channeled ware get reinforced by a new impulse.
5th-4th century northern Paeonian (likely decendents of Pcinja culture) expand into Kosovo, the real expansion likely happened under Macedonian protection as a buffer defense for Macedon, to place allies in it's back rear.
4th-1st century Illyrian takeover.

Based on this, Dardani is either a pre-Thracian name adopted by the Thracians when they took over para-Paeonian LBA territories, or an actual Daco-Thracian name. I think the first option seems more logical.
Illyrians kept the name and it would explain why the Romans noted an adjacent Illyrian tribe Pirustae to distinguish Illyrian from non-Illyrian Dardani.
Either way it is clear that the historical Dardanian kingdom expanded Illyrian anthronyms such they appear to be the majority in Kosovo, a strange situation since most of IA, most of Kosovo(2/3) was under Daco-Thracian cultural horizon, the only explantion would be that the Dardanian kingdom was ruled by Illyrians.

The linguistic line an a modern map.

 

[Hawk]

It adds to the fact that Darda, Dardanus appears quite frequently in Daco-Mysian and Thracian world.

Also, one interesting fact is that Monunius the Dardanian King name appears outside of it only among Odrysian Thracians, another Monunious son of Berisades.

Per D. Garasanin Psenicevo Culture kept close contacts to the Mediana Group, which should be the Dardanian precursor cultures.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

So this is the chronology of Kosovo after LBA

• 11th-9th century: channelled ware territory.
• In the 9th century there is some intrusion by Pcinja culture but it is very limited to eastern parts of Kosovo.
• At the end of 9th(800 BC), Glasinac expand into and through all of Kosovo and beyond.
• In the 8th-6th century, dented ware takes over roughly 6/10 of Kosovo. It is Bessarabi derived, the conquered channeled ware likely asked their nothern kin for help/intervention.
• 5th-4th century northern Paeonian (likely descendants of Pcinja culture) expand into Kosovo, the bulk of this expansion happens in the 4th century under Macedonian protection as a buffer defense for Macedon, to place allies in it's back rear.
• 4th-1st century Illyrian reexpansion/historical Dardanian kingdom.

For most of the Iron Age, the ethnic frontier was the blue line, while by the Roman rule it had shifted to the orange line:

The peak of Illyrians must have been 800-750 BC where they had taken the entire Vardar valley and groups of Illyrians pushed through southern Serbian almost to the Bulgarian border. Bassarabi culture intervenes and Illyrians are pushed back to the blue line, while the Vardar group suffers a heavy defeat from Thraco-Cimmerian invasion and retreats to Albanian and western Kosovo.

The Morava valley remained Thracian throughout the Iron Age and was still so under Roman rule. The Paeonians were under Thracian sphere of influence though not a Thracian people, and allied themselves with the Macedonians as a means to relieve the Thracian pressure.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

These eastern Balkan branches of R-PF7563 were likely also part of northern Paeonians, though their origins likely go back Bubanj-Hum. These particular branches clearly came with E-V13 into Albania.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y83965/

R-BY16680 YTree

www.yfull.com

They are likely the remnants of Bubanj Hum EBA culture:

A possible eastern matt-painted branch which would have migrated to Anatolia after Brygian collapse.

R-FGC42003 YTree

www.yfull.com

The alleged Anatolian/Armenian branch, based on it's TMRCA might be Balkan derived too, 900 BC, that's around when Brygians leave Macedonia.

R-Y95829 YTree

www.yfull.com

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Proposed phases of R-Z2705

MBA -Orange zone, part of Vatin. Blue zone is Vatin variant, a good candidate for R-BY250, this branch merges culturally with J2b-L283 and becomes Illyrian.

LBA - Green areas, associated with Brnjica culture. R-Y23373 mutation happens with eastern Brnjica.

Iron Age - Red area, northern Paeoni, R-Z2705.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Among the Paeoni, the location and name that catches my attention is the tribe of Lala:

Lala happens to be a medieval Albanian tribe and a widespread surname. Many of it's members seem to be R-Z2705. In the region of Fier whose inhabitants are referred as laluc(the lalas), among the typical Albanian haplogroups, R-Z2705 has the highest ratio.

Alexi Lalas, America soccer player of partial Greek origin descents from this clan, as he carries the Arvanite surname Lalas. He is undoubtedly R1b, and most likely R-Z2705.

 

[broder]

Looks more like a wishful map to me.

Y23373 currently has only two sister branches that proliferated approximately around 1300BCE based on yfull data. Both from Italy (not including the German BY611+ from Poland and the Hungarian samples because we don’t know where they fall in - possibly parallel branches too). So, they most probably are Iapygian remnants in Italy who got there from Albania during late Bronze Age or early Iron Age.

Here is the thing, what this all means: BY611 was a minor linage until Z2705 exploded with Albanians. Throwing it around in irrelevant cultural groups in norther eastern Balkans at those time periods makes absolutely zero sense. What we can say thus far with some confidence is that it definitely was present among Illyrians as a minor linage considering the sister branches from Italy.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It's a coherent visual reconstruction. And very specific, not ambiguous. If R-Z2705 is Illyrian, which Illyrians, what regions, where will it be found. If you you're confident, make a specific claim like I did.

Y23373 currently has only two sister branches that proliferated approximately around 1300BCE based on yfull data.

That is a evidence for a western outlet and that it was not far from the sea, it's numbers and very few branches do not suggests it lived by the sea. The regions I marked from LBA onward are within reason. There have been suggestions of Brnjica impulses or remnants that moved to southern Albania from there a migration to Italy. But without samples from surrounding regions, that's just speculation on my part to justify what I laid out.

However, a complete lack of Y23373 parallel branches among Illyrian historical regions in modern samples is just as problematic for what you are suggesting.

The other clue which points to a Paeonian origin and something I'm certain rrenjet knows the answer. Was R-Z2705 present among Kruja-Komani? I highly doubt it. They would not help themselves but gloat if that was the case.

 

[broder]

It's a coherent visual reconstruction. And very specific, not ambiguous. If R-Z2705 is Illyrian, which Illyrians, what regions, where will it be found. If you you're confident, make a specific claim like I did.



That is a evidence for a western outlet and that it was not far from the sea, it's numbers and very few branches do not suggests it lived by the sea. The regions I marked from LBA onward are within reason. There have been suggestions of Brnjica impulses or remnants that moved to southern Albania from there a migration to Italy. But without samples from surrounding regions, that's just speculation on my part to justify what I laid out.

However, a complete lack of Y23373 parallel branches among Illyrian historical regions in modern samples is just as problematic for what you are suggesting.

The other clue which points to a Paeonian origin and something I'm certain rrenjet knows the answer. Was R-Z2705 present among Kruja-Komani? I highly doubt it. They would not help themselves but gloat if that was the case.

It's ambiguous because it's not based on data.

It doesn't matter what Illyrian group, perhaps groups from proper Albania who crossed the Adriatic and formed the Iapygians. That's the logical conclusion. They most certainly didn't cross the Adriatic from Paenonia or north-eastern Dardania.

Again, Z2705 is a singleton that went through a crazy bottleneck (800/900 years) before it exploded with Albanians from the western Balkans. The only currently confirmed Y23373 sister branches are from Italy, and most probably Iapygian remnants.

Not being present among Komani-Kruja it doesn't automatically mean it was Paenonian. Maybe a Dardanian lineage, who for the most part by 600/700BCE were pred Illyrian. Even the CTS1450 (xZ2705) Paeonian fella fit the profile too. I don't know what Komani yielded. We can reopen this discussion when that data is published.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

It's ambiguous because it's not based on data.

It's actually pretty straight forward, if it's wrong it will be disproven very easily, because it's very precise in the claims. It is not nonsense claim where everything is Illyrian, and Illyrian borders shift where ever it suits rrenjet, like below.

The alleged Iapygian identity of all the people's of Apulia is rrenjet propaganda. R-PF7563 came from southern Albania, you can't abduct some diaspora group(with a non-illyrian culture) merge them with Iapygian(something that happened with circumstances, like Albanians living Italian nieghborhoolds in NYC) and make wild claims, it would be like Albanians currently living in Italy proves Albanian lineages are really Italian, it's absurd.
Future studies are incorporating IBD analysis, already R-PF7563, including the one from Cinamak, is showing closer relations to the IA people of North Macedonia than Illyrians, including the ones from Cinamak. You do know other people non-Thracian people existed in the Balkans, it was not just Illyrians and Thracians.

The point is, if Y23373 parallel branches ended up in Messapia in LBA, there is a non-Illyrian avenue for it. The Y23373 mediterrenean is the only hope for the Illyrian argument, and even that is not 100% certain, as it matters how the parallel branch got to Italy, it's exact path. Whether from real Illyrian tribes, or from regions that only later fell under Illyrian occuption, ie a people fleeing Illyrians from southern Albania.

They most certainly didn't cross the Adriatic from Paenonia or north-eastern Dardania.

A western branch from this group, it broke off and ended up in Italy during the LBA collapse.

Not being present among Komani-Kruja it doesn't automatically mean it was Paenonian.

No but there no better choices as to how it could show up with E-V13. And not being in Kruja-Komani makes it's association with Illyrian even less likely than it's current status.

We can reopen this discussion when that data is published.

The discussion is about current data. It's not up to me when data get's published. We have good data from Illyrian areas, though not satisfactory, Bosnia, western Serbia and Kosovo would be appreciated. There is also absolutely zero from the areas in my map, which are also very relavent. From MBA through IA, a complete void.

 

[broder]

FYI, the German BY611+ guy did the Big Y, so he is a parallel branch. So, two Italian and one German sister branches.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Y23373 or just R-BY611?

 

[broder]

Y23373 or just R-BY611?

He is BY611* currently, so meaning a parallel branch to Y23373 and Y30192 just like the Sardinian sample from that scientific study.

 

[Hawk]

Messapians potentially could have been different from Daunians and Peuceti, they have primarily pit burials unlike Dauni and Peuceti who used the tumuli as the rest of Illyrians. But, ofcourse we need aDNA from Messapian pit burials from Iron Age to see how they turn out. Whether they were the same as Dauni/Peuceti, mixed with them or different.

Also, R1b-Z2705 coming from Central Balkans doesn't seem far fetched at all, in fact it's reasonable. Either that or Southern Illyrian in origin since Dalmatian-Pannonian Illyrians seem to have been exclusively J2b2-L283. Or even Kosovo/South Serbia/Western-Bulgaria region, west of Western Rhodopes. R1b-Z2103 was widespread in Early Bronze Age, it was the dominant Y-DNA in EBA Bulgaria until it got hit hardly somewhere in MBA and afterwards in LBA by subsequent Earlier Hallstattian invasions.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

They seem to be an uprooted people, and they must merged with the Dauni/Peuceti to some extend overtime because they migrated to an alien environment. Also the local Illyrians(Dauni/Peuceti) seems to have favored their pottery and adopted it, probably by employing Messapi potters, which suggests a friendly symbiosis. That does not make R-PF7563 Illyrian no more than R1a is ancient Albanian.
In the Balkan side, R-PF7563 occurs in frotnier zones of Illyria and with a modified autosomla profile, as IBD clusters proved, no different than the models I was runing on G25. Before late IA, this is different population and culture block from the Illyrians. BA Balkan samples will show a clear demarciation line between the typical Illyrian haplogroups and R-PF7563, I am confident of that.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There was a sample from the Danubian paper that was never converted to G25 as it's snp coverage was low(77k I think). The Serbian paper modeled it as Albanian IA, Croatia IA, and Serbia BA. When I saw that I had to run the test myself, and the Serbian BA is no fluke, as we saw from the Germanic paper, Serbian BA often had IBD relations with R-Z2103 samples from North Macedonia in IA, which supports the overall model I proposed, Vatin gets pushed progressively south during BA and IA.

The Vimincamium sample I15515(R-Z2103) shows strongest relationship to Macedonian samples primarily and the Bessarabi secondary. I think the sample has a good chance of being a Roman period Paeonian and a very good chance of being R-Z2705 or a parallel branch.