Sustainability Plant-based meat sales by country

[Maciamo]

The popularity of meat substitutes has been soaring in the last few years. Meat alternatives are hailed as healthier and more eco-conscious choices. These include vegan burgers (patties), vegan sausages, vegan bacon, vegan chicken, which typically use proteins from soybeans or peas. Other alternatives include high-protein plant products like tofu, tempeh and seitan.

In the US, Impossible Foods and Beyond Meat are both pioneers in mimicking meat at the molecular level using plant-based proteins and nutrients. Europe has many companies of its own.

Many countries have seen sales increasing by 50% or more every year for the last 4 or 5 years. For instance, the growth of sales for plant-based substitutes between 2019 and 2020 was +48% in Spain, +50% in the Netherlands, +56% in Romania, +57% in Austria, +62% in Poland, +73% in the UK, and +97% in Germany.

I have calculated the plant-based meat alternatives sales per capita by country using data from the Smart Protein Project's report for some EU countries. I found data for the US and Switzerland elsewhere. The statistics should be adjusted for the cost of life in each country as it is based on the value of sales and prices are considerably higher in Switzerland than in Poland or Romania.

Country	2020 sales (in millions)	Population (in m.)	Sales per capita
Netherlands	291	17.5	16.6
Switzerland	117	8.6	13.6
Belgium	134	11.6	11.6
UK	750	67.3	11.1
Germany	817	83.2	9.8
Spain	448	47.4	9.5
Austria	82	8.9	9.2
France	355	67.7	5.2
Denmark	30	5.8	5.2
USA	1250	330	3.8
Italy	73	59.1	1.2
Poland	43	37.7	1.1
Romania	21	19.1	1.1

 

[Riverman]

You can see our politics leaders deportment:
Look at European governments in face of Agricultors riot; in France ATW ecologists has been put responsible for the most of "peasants" (what an unprecise and confusing term) problems, spite we know that in France, the most of the voted ecologic rules have never been applied (repeated "moratoires"). Sure other questions exist in agriculture but...

The current EU politics forces farmers into bankruptcy and the goal is to give away all the agricultural of small farmers to big corportions and private equity. The food policy agenda is to force veganism on the people, with highly processed foods made by big corporations being the primary, if not sole source of daily nutrition, all with the poor excuse of the "climate crisis".
It is very obvious that any sort of climate change rhetoric being used to install politics in favour of big money and big tech, and reduce the independent farmers and local, independent food production drastically. Its already a mess that we are so dependent upon big corp seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. On international imports, which are surely "climate friendlier" than local traditional production...

Therefore the protests of the farmers are absolutely justified and the whole "climate crisis" agenda being a poor excuse to transform society into something nobody which loves his choice and freedom can accept. _

Because in the end its not just about whether or not climate change is a reality, but what to do about it, what really makes a difference if concerning CO2 emissions, and what's rather a comfortable excuse to push other agendas through, against the will of the majority of the population.

 

[MOESAN]

The current EU politics forces farmers into bankruptcy and the goal is to give away all the agricultural of small farmers to big corportions and private equity. The food policy agenda is to force veganism on the people, with highly processed foods made by big corporations being the primary, if not sole source of daily nutrition, all with the poor excuse of the "climate crisis".
It is very obvious that any sort of climate change rhetoric being used to install politics in favour of big money and big tech, and reduce the independent farmers and local, independent food production drastically. Its already a mess that we are so dependent upon big corp seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. On international imports, which are surely "climate friendlier" than local traditional production...

Therefore the protests of the farmers are absolutely justified and the whole "climate crisis" agenda being a poor excuse to transform society into something nobody which loves his choice and freedom can accept. _

Because in the end its not just about whether or not climate change is a reality, but what to do about it, what really makes a difference if concerning CO2 emissions, and what's rather a comfortable excuse to push other agendas through, against the will of the majority of the population.

I agree with some of your points. But I'm not sure the industrial-chemical capitalist conglomerat is trying to make 'veganists' of us. It's a problem of forced import-export (good job for hypercapitalists) in place of a regulating import-export linked to real needs. Some states (ours) sacrify some of their agriculture sectors (the little peasants in first place) in exchange of industrial gains on other sides. ATW the agricultural gains are not a guarantee of peasants gains! We import food from countries where climate will be sacrified as well as the local poor peasants, but we export alaborated products based on food. I don't find your "climate change rhetoric" is so often put in the first place by our politicians (in Frace, at the contrary, there is some ecolobashing by our politicians). They are just skipping their boats according to the people demands at short term, I think. Westwards today, eastwards tomorrow and so on. I sadi again I agree with a lot of your points, but we have to change our agriculture with more respect not only to climate but to biodiversity, our future. Producing to eat first, enough and good, before exporting. But our big "peasants" (food industrials) are the ones who are strangling the little ones, among others.

 

[Riverman]

The "veganism being the solution" ideology being promoted by the transnational institutions and being part of this overall agenda which leads to big corporations producing all the highly processed foods on which local populations have depend upon, since all their local, self-sufficient structures being degraded.
Just look at the massive propaganda for fake meat and artificial meat, while at the same time animal breeding and slaughtering being over-regulated, centralised and at the time reduced. All over the globe actually, in the USA, Ireland, Netherlands, France, Germany, Poland etc. This is a planned and forced meat shortage crisis, with sure enough soon exploding prices for quality meat products, whereas at the same time the whole artificial highly processed crap substitute meat stuff being massively propagated.

In the old times, many families could live from their animals alone, or mostly so. Having locally bred animals guarantees you independence, whereas the industrial, highly processed foods make people dependent and can cause food shortages. Embargos will crush the food supply in days for a nation which fully depends on big corp industrial food products. And that's part of the scheme.

At the same time, while people may discuss how healthy meat and animal secondary products, mostly from milk, really are, one thing is for sure: Most of the highly processed substitutes is as bad or actually much worse.

Gaining full control over the food supply for the people globally is the main goal behind all these pressures and changes, anything concerning climate is just a moral and political cover.

 

[Hawk]

The "veganism being the solution" ideology being promoted by the transnational institutions and being part of this overall agenda which leads to big corporations producing all the highly processed foods on which local populations have depend upon, since all their local, self-sufficient structures being degraded.
Just look at the massive propaganda for fake meat and artificial meat, while at the same time animal breeding and slaughtering being over-regulated, centralised and at the time reduced. All over the globe actually, in the USA, Ireland, Netherlands, France, Germany, Poland etc. This is a planned and forced meat shortage crisis, with sure enough soon exploding prices for quality meat products, whereas at the same time the whole artificial highly processed crap substitute meat stuff being massively propagated.

In the old times, many families could live from their animals alone, or mostly so. Having locally bred animals guarantees you independence, whereas the industrial, highly processed foods make people dependent and can cause food shortages. Embargos will crush the food supply in days for a nation which fully depends on big corp industrial food products. And that's part of the scheme.

At the same time, while people may discuss how healthy meat and animal secondary products, mostly from milk, really are, one thing is for sure: Most of the highly processed substitutes is as bad or actually much worse.

Gaining full control over the food supply for the people globally is the main goal behind all these pressures and changes, anything concerning climate is just a moral and political cover.

I sort of agree with you, the Vegan highly processed food fake-meats are a concern, especially since a lot of vegan food comes from soy products which contain estrogen-like components which affect men's testosterone.

I would say meat especially red meat has been demonized, and like those two Netflix Vegan documentaries they miss-represent processed meat as general red meat. If you for example get a beef steak or venison steak it contains quite a lot of amino acids neccessary for our body. Of course everything in excess is bad for us, hence it's good to mix vegetables, fruits and fish/meat and balance our intake.

But unfortunately there is no way back, population is growing and our system is exclusively money-making capitalism.

Now back to climate, there is the concern raised that cattle raised for meat is quite a factor in climate change. IDK, perhaps they are sort of right and that's why they are pushing vegan fake-meat which is far more easy to produce but the issue is that a lot of people will end up malnutritioned.

On top of everything the worst is vegan milk, like almond milk, oat milk, check the ingredient most of them are a mix of crushed almonds (or whatever other nut/grain they are made of), water and canola oil. If that's not worse than dairy, IDK.

 

[Riverman]

I sort of agree with you, the Vegan highly processed food fake-meats are a concern, especially since a lot of vegan food comes from soy products which contain estrogen-like components which affect men's testosterone.

I would say meat especially red meat has been demonized, and like those two Netflix Vegan documentaries they miss-represent processed meat as general red meat. If you for example get a beef steak or venison steak it contains quite a lot of amino acids neccessary for our body. Of course everything in excess is bad for us, hence it's good to mix vegetables, fruits and fish/meat and balance our intake.

But unfortunately there is no way back, population is growing and our system is exclusively money-making capitalism.

Now back to climate, there is the concern raised that cattle raised for meat is quite a factor in climate change. IDK, perhaps they are sort of right and that's why they are pushing vegan fake-meat which is far more easy to produce but the issue is that a lot of people will end up malnutritioned.

On top of everything the worst is vegan milk, like almond milk, oat milk, check the ingredient most of them are a mix of crushed almonds (or whatever other nut/grain they are made of), water and canola oil. If that's not worse than dairy, IDK.

One of the arguments against cattle breeding is that they fart too much - I guess private jets are less of an issue - and the other is that food which could be fed to humans directly must be processed by the cows to produce meat and milk, which is a waste, and less energy efficient.
There is some truth in it, but the cow flatulences are secondary and being increased by the bad food the cows themselves get. The better way of feeding the cattle would be hay and grass. But guess what, they want to limit pastures and grassing of cows too! Yet that's the most efficient way to use grasslands and its more CO2 neutral than many other products pushed by the food industry.
That example in itself, that pastures and ranches being targeted as well, shows that the agenda is a very different one. Also keep in mind, that many animal foods don't have the quality needed for good human food and many pastures and farmlands can't be used for intensive cropfields.
The destruction caused by e.g. soy cropfields and avocados is immense too. So is the CO2 footprint of the long range transport.
At the same time local bred animals from small farms, which being raised on pastures, became the exception. That would be the way to go, to use the pastures which are no good cropland for healthy and species-appropriate animal farming.
But no, Bill Gates & Co decided they want to feed us with cancer meat and fake meat, make us dependent on big corp highly processed food and patents, instead of locally produced and self-sufficient farm goods. No thanks.

 

[Maciamo]

The "veganism being the solution" ideology being promoted by the transnational institutions and being part of this overall agenda which leads to big corporations producing all the highly processed foods on which local populations have depend upon, since all their local, self-sufficient structures being degraded.
[...]
Gaining full control over the food supply for the people globally is the main goal behind all these pressures and changes, anything concerning climate is just a moral and political cover.

This sounds like a groundless conspiracy theory. Most companies making vegan meat alternatives are small start-ups (see this list for Europe), not big corporations. One of the largest of all is Beyond Meat (supported by Bill Gates), but it has never turned a profit and is now almost bankrupt (see stock price chart => now under $10 per share after peaking over $200 when it was launched).

Here are the brands of vegan meat available in Belgian supermarkets. Note that Belgian supermarkets also make their own brand meat substitutes.

• The Bio Veggie Company => company name : Food for freedom (34 employees)
• Be Vegan (not-for-profit company, 11-50 employees according to Linkedin)
• Greenway (11-50 employees according to Linkedin)
• Le Boucher Végétarien (used to be a small family owned Belgian company, but acquired by Unilever in 2018)

There are plenty of studies that confirmed that meat, and especially red meat, is bad for health. As for the impact of red meat on climate change, it is clearly huge. It has been estimated that beef production alone causes 5x more greenhouse gas emissions than all air travel, making it one of the single biggest contributors to global warming!

 

[Riverman]

Veganism being pushed brutally and most people don't like it. Yet those convinved become radical supporters and the industry puts millions into bringing the meat substitutes into the markets, even if they barely sell, like you wrote. I see it at my own markets, how much space they give to these products and the omnipresent, expensive ads.
Its also a fact that the legislative branch is acting against animal breeders and the meat producing industry in general. This is not a conspiracy theory, since its what they are actually doing in the last years.
I also think that comparing the food product per kg is blatantly absurd. The value of 1 kg beef can't be compared with that of one kg rice. Beef has overall better and more nutrients and you don't necessarily eat as much beef as rice or wheat per week anyway. This statistic suggests that beef is so much worse than the other products, yet we have to look at a balanced diet which includes a small amount of beef, not equating the different foods per kg.
As is the statistic as a whole biased in my opinion. The calculation includes land usage, yet much of the land used being not primary arable land to begin with. Such a presentation is an agenda driven policy and evaluation of food products.

 

[Maciamo]

Veganism being pushed brutally and most people don't like it. Yet those convinved become radical supporters and the industry puts millions into bringing the meat substitutes into the markets, even if they barely sell, like you wrote. I see it at my own markets, how much space they give to these products and the omnipresent, expensive ads.
Its also a fact that the legislative branch is acting against animal breeders and the meat producing industry in general. This is not a conspiracy theory, since its what they are actually doing in the last years.
I also think that comparing the food product per kg is blatantly absurd. The value of 1 kg beef can't be compared with that of one kg rice. Beef has overall better and more nutrients and you don't necessarily eat as much beef as rice or wheat per week anyway. This statistic suggests that beef is so much worse than the other products, yet we have to look at a balanced diet which includes a small amount of beef, not equating the different foods per kg.
As is the statistic as a whole biased in my opinion. The calculation includes land usage, yet much of the land used being not primary arable land to begin with. Such a presentation is an agenda driven policy and evaluation of food products.

Nobody forces anybody to become vegan. I sometimes buy vegan meat alternatives, but that doesn't mean that I am vegan - far from it! I eat dairy products, eggs, chicken, turkey, guinea fowl, fish and seafood. I just don't eat red meat (beef, pork, lamb, rabbit) any more for 3 reasons:

1) It's bad for health : it considerably increase risks of cardiovascular disease and some cancers (especially colorectal, one of the most common types of cancer).

2) I am not a fan of killing sentient (and sensitive) mammals to eat them and don't want to sponsor animal cruelty (you never know how farm animals were treated when you buy the meat). When you see an innocent little lamb hopping happily in a pasture, what makes you want to kill it? Chickens, fish, shrimps and shellfish are very different in that regard. Their brain is much smaller and they don't share our mammalian sensitivity. Just wondering: do you eat rabbit, dog or cat meat?

3) The impact of beef and lamb on global warming is just excessive.

The Economist just published an article saying that treating beef like coal would make a big dent in greenhouse-gas emissions. As you can see, the CO2 equivalent of beef production is nearly 4 times bigger than all the emissions of Japan (agriculture included, and they do have a beef industry too).

As for your comparison and one kg of beef vs rice, are you talking about the greenhouse gas emissions per kg, the proteins per kg, or the overall nutritional value? I don't understand why you chose to compare these two. If you want a plant-based replacement of meat proteins, rice is certainly not the answer. Legumes are much more suitable and far cheaper per gramme of protein too.

 

[Maciamo]

The current EU politics forces farmers into bankruptcy and the goal is to give away all the agricultural of small farmers to big corportions and private equity. The food policy agenda is to force veganism on the people, with highly processed foods made by big corporations being the primary, if not sole source of daily nutrition, all with the poor excuse of the "climate crisis".
It is very obvious that any sort of climate change rhetoric being used to install politics in favour of big money and big tech, and reduce the independent farmers and local, independent food production drastically. Its already a mess that we are so dependent upon big corp seeds, fertilizers and pesticides. On international imports, which are surely "climate friendlier" than local traditional production...

Therefore the protests of the farmers are absolutely justified and the whole "climate crisis" agenda being a poor excuse to transform society into something nobody which loves his choice and freedom can accept. _

Because in the end its not just about whether or not climate change is a reality, but what to do about it, what really makes a difference if concerning CO2 emissions, and what's rather a comfortable excuse to push other agendas through, against the will of the majority of the population.

I tend to agree with the recent protests of farmers. One of their demands was for the EU to scrap the free trade deal with Mercosur, as it would bring plenty of cheap agricultural products from Latin America to Europe. That would be terrible for European farmers, but also for the environment as a lot of the agricultural land in South America has been taken over the Amazon and other ecologically important forests.

On the other hand, many farmers don't see to grasp the notion of supply and demand. They complain that meat prices have been falling without apparently understanding that this is because Europeans consume less meat than they used to for a number of reasons. If they don't want prices to drop, they should just adapt their production in consequence. A smaller meat production will bring prices back up.

 

[Viramund]

What is the difficulty of understanding that a vegan / plant based diet is overwhelmingly based upon fruits and vegetables in their unprocessed state? The work of the farmer would only change from farming animals to farming better quality legumes (human market demands more health with less bioaccumulative and lipossoluble pesticides and herbicides) just like in the good old days of the Cucuteni trypilia.

 

[MOESAN]

I'm not sure everykind of proteins has the same nutritional advantages as some kinds of meat and I think our organisms are adapted to an omnivorous diet. The cancerigen effects tied to beaf meat diet is maybe tied to other (peripherical) causes too. But I think we need very less beaf meat than we eat regularly in our countries, and it seems the cattle breeding is very bad concerning climate. Other providers of meat are less bad seemingly, for cimate as well as for health. So I 'm for a reduction concerning cattle meat consumption. Agriculture can adtapt to changes as well as any other production job. But it seems that red meat is a symbole attached to plentiness and virility for some HUmans...

 

[Hawk]

I'm not sure everykind of proteins has the same nutritional advantages as some kinds of meat and I think our organisms are adapted to an omnivorous diet. The cancerigen effects tied to beaf meat diet is maybe tied to other (peripherical) causes too. But I think we need very less beaf meat than we eat regularly in our countries, and it seems the cattle breeding is very bad concerning climate. Other providers of meat are less bad seemingly, for cimate as well as for health. So I 'm for a reduction concerning cattle meat consumption. Agriculture can adtapt to changes as well as any other production job. But it seems that red meat is a symbole attached to plentiness and virility for some HUmans...

Definitely, too much of beef meat with fat will probably increase your cholesterol but that's just one side of the story, because our modern diet has dramatically increased the consumption of sugar, so, imagined a combination of processed red meat, sugar, too little vegetables and fruits. Once a week having a beef steak stabilizes your B vitamins, and gives you essential amino acids, there is nothing wrong if you mind the consumption of sugar during the day.

Otherwise i see no adequate replacement in plant based protein, soy is a no go per default, seytan as well, legumes and beans so-so but they lack still and are not of the same quality as meat/fish in terms of amino acids.

There is no doubt there is an ongoing propaganda like this recent paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7053091/

They adequate high protein intake with heart disease, in Netflix they even said that meat consumption causes diabetes type II in one vegan documentary. They totally ignore sugar and carbohydrates intentionally.

 

[Maciamo]

I'm not sure everykind of proteins has the same nutritional advantages as some kinds of meat and I think our organisms are adapted to an omnivorous diet. The cancerigen effects tied to beaf meat diet is maybe tied to other (peripherical) causes too. But I think we need very less beaf meat than we eat regularly in our countries, and it seems the cattle breeding is very bad concerning climate. Other providers of meat are less bad seemingly, for cimate as well as for health. So I 'm for a reduction concerning cattle meat consumption. Agriculture can adtapt to changes as well as any other production job. But it seems that red meat is a symbole attached to plentiness and virility for some HUmans...

First of all, the body does not absorb proteins from food. Protease enzymes in the stomach and pancreas break down proteins into amino acids so that the body can absorb them. There are 21 amino acids, which are all found in any kind of meat, fish or seafood.

Soybeans are the only plant that contains all 21 of them, which is why it is often used in meat substitutes. Soybeans are very versatile and are the basis of Japanese cuisine. It is used to make soy sauce, miso paste, tofu, nattō... Soybeans are also rich in vitamin B1, B2, B9, K, copper, iron, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium and zinc.

Soybeans contain phytoestrogens but according to Wikipedia: "Because most naturally occurring phytoestrogens act as selective estrogen receptor modulators, or SERMs, which do not necessarily act as direct agonists of estrogen receptors, normal consumption of foods that contain these phytoestrogens should not provide sufficient amounts to elicit a physiological response in humans."[191][192]

I have lived five years in Japan eating primarily soy-rich Japanese food and I did not notice any ill effect on my testosterone level.

This chart shows the proportion of amino acids found in various foods. All meats and legumes/beans have a very similar profile.

Personally I do not follow or recommend a vegan diet, but it is better to limit meat consumption, especially red meat (which I now completely avoid).

 

[Maciamo]

Once a week having a beef steak stabilizes your B vitamins, and gives you essential amino acids, there is nothing wrong if you mind the consumption of sugar during the day.

Why beef and not chicken, eggs or fish?

 

[Hawk]

Why beef and not chicken, eggs or fish?

Nothing in particular, Chicken is my favorite meat, from fish i prefer cod due to milder flavor and low fat/cholesterol and i include them quite a lot, way more than beef, but having beef from time to time, steak one, not the highly processed ones, does not kill anyone.

 

[MOESAN]

First of all, the body does not absorb proteins from food. Protease enzymes in the stomach and pancreas break down proteins into amino acids so that the body can absorb them. There are 21 amino acids, which are all found in any kind of meat, fish or seafood.

Soybeans are the only plant that contains all 21 of them, which is why it is often used in meat substitutes. Soybeans are very versatile and are the basis of Japanese cuisine. It is used to make soy sauce, miso paste, tofu, nattō... Soybeans are also rich in vitamin B1, B2, B9, K, copper, iron, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium and zinc.

Soybeans contain phytoestrogens but according to Wikipedia: "Because most naturally occurring phytoestrogens act as selective estrogen receptor modulators, or SERMs, which do not necessarily act as direct agonists of estrogen receptors, normal consumption of foods that contain these phytoestrogens should not provide sufficient amounts to elicit a physiological response in humans."[191][192]

I have lived five years in Japan eating primarily soy-rich Japanese food and I did not notice any ill effect on my testosterone level.

This chart shows the proportion of amino acids found in various foods. All meats and legumes/beans have a very similar profile.

View attachment 15516

Personally I do not follow or recommend a vegan diet, but it is better to limit meat consumption, especially red meat (which I now completely avoid).

 

[MOESAN]

First of all, the body does not absorb proteins from food. Protease enzymes in the stomach and pancreas break down proteins into amino acids so that the body can absorb them. There are 21 amino acids, which are all found in any kind of meat, fish or seafood.

Soybeans are the only plant that contains all 21 of them, which is why it is often used in meat substitutes. Soybeans are very versatile and are the basis of Japanese cuisine. It is used to make soy sauce, miso paste, tofu, nattō... Soybeans are also rich in vitamin B1, B2, B9, K, copper, iron, magnesium, phosphorus, potassium and zinc.

Soybeans contain phytoestrogens but according to Wikipedia: "Because most naturally occurring phytoestrogens act as selective estrogen receptor modulators, or SERMs, which do not necessarily act as direct agonists of estrogen receptors, normal consumption of foods that contain these phytoestrogens should not provide sufficient amounts to elicit a physiological response in humans."[191][192]

I have lived five years in Japan eating primarily soy-rich Japanese food and I did not notice any ill effect on my testosterone level.

This chart shows the proportion of amino acids found in various foods. All meats and legumes/beans have a very similar profile.

View attachment 15516

Personally I do not follow or recommend a vegan diet, but it is better to limit meat consumption, especially red meat (which I now completely avoid).

Thanks. By 'vitility' I was not thinking in factual effects of meat or X on them, but in psychological representations. In ancient times it seem males ate more meat than females ("strength" linked to meat). Concerning meat and vegetables merits I read some afirmations which were amybe not based on genuine scientific studies.

 

[MOESAN]

Definitely, too much of beef meat with fat will probably increase your cholesterol but that's just one side of the story, because our modern diet has dramatically increased the consumption of sugar, so, imagined a combination of processed red meat, sugar, too little vegetables and fruits. Once a week having a beef steak stabilizes your B vitamins, and gives you essential amino acids, there is nothing wrong if you mind the consumption of sugar during the day.

Otherwise i see no adequate replacement in plant based protein, soy is a no go per default, seytan as well, legumes and beans so-so but they lack still and are not of the same quality as meat/fish in terms of amino acids.

There is no doubt there is an ongoing propaganda like this recent paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7053091/

They adequate high protein intake with heart disease, in Netflix they even said that meat consumption causes diabetes type II in one vegan documentary. They totally ignore sugar and carbohydrates intentionally.

from the abstract of the paper linked by yourself:
... Our data provide the first insights into the deleterious impact of excessive protein ingestion on macrophages and atherosclerotic progression.Incorporation of these concepts in clinical studies will be important to definethe vascular effects of protein-based weight loss regimens...
Always a question of equilibrium for us omnivorous people. Not too much, not too less. And physical activity has to be taken in account too... We agree more or less.