Poll: What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

What will Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup be?

  • F

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I2b-ADR

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I2c

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I2*

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • J1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • J2

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • L

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • N1c1

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Q

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • R1a

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • R1b L11-

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • T

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    23
No I dont think E1b1b has yet reached Europe by that time , but I would give you rep for try
 
I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?
 
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I'll be adventurous and say that he probably wasn't G or E, because what would a person carrying a gene associated with sedentary agriculturalists be doing around the Alps, much more suited for pastoralism? I say it's I, R1b or maybe even R1a (if the Indo-Europeans had reached that region by then)
Edit: Now then, if the theory that G2a was brought to Europe by pastoralists is correct, then G2a would be quite possible... However, wouldn't the fact that G2a has been found in LBK (a quite sedentary culture) individuals actually deter the G2a pastoralist hypothesis?

Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too. E1b1b and T would have come directly from the Levant through a Mediterranean route passing by Greece and Italy. The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.

As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.
 
The difference in skull is evolutive, not necessarily intrebreeding. I've seen in some eastern-europeans these trait also, the back of the head is straight 90 degrees.

Indeed, I noticed that among quite a few Polish people too. But Eastern Europeans may have inherited some genes from Siberians or Central Asians in this regard.
 
I think the bigger surprise was something else: many people (including myself) thought that if there was interbreeding between Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, it would have happened between the Neanderthals and the first "modern" humans that arrived into Europe in the Paleolithic. However, instead it turns out that the interbreeding already occured during humanity's initial "breakout" of Africa, and that basically the entire non-subsaharan-African population carries some Neanderthal DNA with them.

I always said that Neanderthals probably interbred with Homo Sapiens in the Middle East and Central Asia at least as much as they did in Europe (blond and red hair, for instance, probably came to Europe with the R1a and R1b people, who originated from Central Asia). I think that fair skin could very well have come from Neanderthal, which is why it is found in all Eurasia (except South India). Note that the only dark-skinned people outside Africa (Dravidians, Aboriginal Australians) are those that presumably descend from the first wave out of Africa 60-70,000 years ago (probably haplogroup C and D), following the coast of South Asia as far Australia. East Asian hg C and D would have been autosomally influenced by the Denisovans or later Homo Sapiens incomers, which explains why they also have white skin and are nearly undistinguishable from hg N, O or Q people physically.
 
The genes responsible for white skin in europeans is different than that of east-asians, meaning that in the latter the process of lightening skintone has followed a different path
 
Skin have to lighten in colder aerias - due to lack of sun , arose deficiency of vitamin D , and that lead to serious twisting of bouns , and to crepling of body . Whiter skin is more eficient gatherer of vitamin D than dark one .
But for light eyes and hair I would say are inhereted from Neanderthals . Mongolic peoples have quite diferent adaptations to cold conditions - more fat under eye covers , broad face and splatered nose are bether for frost , small eyes help against sun reflection from snow - so eyes are not damaged , smaller body due to faster metebolism ,... This is the way Homo Sapiens would adapt to cold , and European adaptations are diferent , but never the less eficient
 
Good point. However, it is a common misconception that early farmers were sedentary folks. Neolithic agriculture was very basic and served as a additional means of subsistence beside other more traditional ways of feeding oneself, like hunting and gathering. Then, the Neolithic really started with domestication, not agriculture, and the first domesticates came from the Caucasus and northern Mesopotamia, where haplogroup G2a and J1 are the most common. In other words, Neolithic farmers were probably more goat and cattle herders, who still hunted regularly and grew some crops on the side to complement their diet. I now think that the LBK folks came from that region in eastern Anatolia/south Caucasus where animal domestication originated and were a blend of G2a and J1 people, perhaps including J2 people too.
This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:
"The LBK people settled on fluvial terraces and in the proximities of rivers. They were quick to identify regions of fertile loess. On it they raised a distinctive assemblage of crops and associated weeds in small plots, an economy that Gimbutas called a "garden type of civilization." The difference between a crop and a weed in LBK contexts is the frequency. (...) The LBK people were stock-raisers as well, with cattle favoured, though goats and swine are also recorded. Like farmers today, they may have used the better grain for themselves and the lower grades for the animals. The ubiquitous dogs are present here too, but scantly. Substantial wild faunal remains are found. The LBK supplemented their diets by hunting deer and wild boar in the open forests of Europe as it was then."
So it seems to me that while they did hunt, it was not as important as to other Neolithic cultures; and though they did have domestic animals, cattle (as opposed to sheep or goats, more suited for mountainous places and especially nomadic pastoralism) was the most widespread. And while I do not debate the Anatollian/Caucasian theory for the origin of G2a, it seems to me that at least in Western/Central Europe they developed much more agricultural traditions (possibly influenced by the "Old European" cultures of the Balkans?). But of course, if such is the case, why then do the greatest G2a frequencies appear in mountainous areas? A possible answer to this, in my opinion, could be that many of them retreated to the highlands during the Indo-European expansions, where they developed a more pastoral culture and economy.
The problem with Ötzi is that he lived at the limit of two distinct Neolithic routes : the Danubian (LBK) and Mediterranean (Terramare) ones.
But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?
As for R1a, I think that an R1a person would have carried bronze weapons or tools, rather than copper ones at that time.
That's why I considered it the most improbable (among many other things).
 
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This applies to many Neolithic cultures, but LBK was much more agriculture-oriented, at least according to what I have read in Wikipedia:

I don't know if LBK was more agriculture oriented, but I was referring to all Neolithic cultures in Europe.

But wasn't Terramare a Bronze Age culture?

Sorry, I wrote too fast. I meant Printed Cardium Pottery of course.
 
I think ötzi is G2a the prominent haplogroup of Neolithic farmers.

If it would be R1b, it would be very interesting because we could date the specific subclade more precisely.
 
Ötzi's case is definitely interesting because the place and time he lived was a major crossroad in European prehistory. Not only are the Alps the geographic limit between two distinct Neolithic routes, the period in which Ötzi lived coincides with various contemporary Neolithic, Chacolithic and early Bronze Age cultures in Europe. It was a time of change, a three-speed Europe. 5300 years ago, the Neolithic movement had barely reached northern Europe, the Chalcolithic was well implanted in the Danubian basin (around modern Romania, northern Bulgaria and Serbia) while the Bronze Age ha just started in the Caucasus (Maykop culture).

I just found out on the website of the South Tyrol Museum of Archaeology that Ötzi probably belonged to the Remedello culture from Northern Italy. This was one of the first Copper Age culture to reach the Italian peninsula, and indeed Ötzi did carry a copper axe. If such is the case, it would mean that Ötzi was not related to the Neolithic inhabitants of Italy (Printed Cardium Pottery), and therefore his chances of belonging to haplogroup I2a1 is close to nil, while I would lower a bit my previsions for G2a. Ötzi would have been related to the cultures of "Old Europe" (Linear Pottery, Lengyel, Black-and-Grey Pottery, etc.). If anything it makes it even more interesting, although we already have three samples from the LBK culture, and these were two G2a and one individual that could be F or IJ or J1 (probably J1). I still believe that haplogroups E1b1b, T, J2, R1b1c (V88) were all part of the Neolithic and/or Chalcolithic migrants to Europe. In other words, Ötzi could be G2a, J1, E1b1b, T, J2, R1b1c/R1b1b. Add to this I2a2, which I also believe to be native to Southeast Europe rather than a late arrival with the Slavic migrations. That's a lot of possibilities.

Considering that Ötzi is brachycephalic, I would lower my previsions for haplogroup E1b1b, which usually correlate with dolichocephalic phenotypes. I expect J2 and R1b-ht35 to have spread later than the Chalcolithic, probably more during the Bronze and Iron Ages (perhaps along with E1b1b during the Greco-Roman expansions).

I would be extremely surprised if Ötzi was I1, I2b, L, N, Q, R1a or R1b1b2a1. I also don't expect him to be I2a1.

The more likely haplogroups remaining are (in order of likelihood) : G2a, I2a2, R1b1c, J1, and T.

The less likely, but still possible haplogroups : E1b1b, R1b-ht35, J2.
 
The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.

From a comment on Dienekes' blog:

marcantonio said:
According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4!

Link?

The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011. See also the following link for more info on this documentary:
http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/dokumentationen/155967/index.html
But unless you speak German this link will be of no interest!

I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.

Those who voted G2a before this are:

That would be a lot of people to give +rep to! Oh well. Let's wait and see if the rumor is right before handing out the reputation.
 
Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.

I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out.

According to an interview with an austrian scientist Ötzi is G2a4! The source of this information is an interview with Dr. Eduard Egarter-Vigl, Head of Conservation and Assistant to research projects of the Archaeological Museum in Bozen, given in a documentary on Ötzi broadcast by 3sat on 10th august 2011.
If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.

Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?
 
Very interesting. I know the region and the new Ötzi reconstruction reminds me of some Vinschger (Val Venosta = upper Etsch valley) people. Today local history: The Vinschgau Valley was inhabited mainly by Rhaeto-Romanic speaking people until some centuries ago. After the Aleman (from North and Switzerland) church and nobility dominance was to long, the prevalent language changed to german. The people (especially of the upper valley near lake Reschen) compared to nearby populations is still featured with more dark hair (see pics 1, 2, 3, 4, 5). But remind that by isotopic composition of his tooth enamel Ötzi probably could have lived his early live mainly in the Isarcus valley (Eisack, Isarco) near Brixen. Eisack-Valley was flooded with germanic people (Bavaria, much more light hair nowadays). The Raetics in their pre-roman-time could have been connected with the Etruscan culture.

I think the Y-DNA of Ötzi will maybe be overweighted after the finding out.

If you understand german you can view this documentary today on BR-alpha (a southern german tv receivable on Astra-SAT). See here for more info on the docu beginning at 9 PM: Ötzi, ein Archäologie-Krimi von Christiane Sprachmann.

Dr. Egarter-Vigl was the local forensic crime investigation leader of South Tyrol and involved for years with the Ötzi case. I think he is more into traditional forensic then DNA, but as head of the investigation, has many insights. Is there a link to the research team or project of Ötzi-DNA?

There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.
 
There where no etruscans in Italy at the time of Otzi.
I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.
 
The rumor mill is saying G2a4. G2a would be unsurprising as everybody has said, although G2a3 would be more expected than G2a4.

From a comment on Dienekes' blog:



I have no idea whether or not this commenter is a reliable source. But there you go.

Those who voted G2a before this are:

That would be a lot of people to give +rep to! Oh well. Let's wait and see if the rumor is right before handing out the reputation.

You can ad me to this list. :LOL: I chose this too on Dienekes board.

Here is the Interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXiwWpmSbs
 
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I have closed the poll now that we have the confirmation that Ötzi was G2a. Congrats to the 50% of you who guessed correctly like me. Only 18% of the visitors on Dienekes' blog chose haplogroup G (out of 502 people !). Not many people guessed right on DNA-forums.org either.
 
I know, I said "pre-roman-time" to describe that nowadays people in the Vinschgau Valley (and the whole Tyrol region) could be a mix of Raetics (maybe in parts descendants from Ötzi's culture), Celts, Etruscans, Venetians, Romans and Germanic tribes (Bavarians, Alemans, Langobards). I hope the scientists make some comparison to past studies like "Genetic Structure in Contemporary South Tyrolean Isolated Populations Revealed by Analysis of Y-Chromosome, mtDNA, and Alu Polymorphisms". Because people in some Alps Valleys could have very small influence by the last millennias migration waves, there can be a link to Ötzi or other ancient DNA.


This is what I wrote on the 22 July 2011

otzi is mtdna of K10 and his dna is as you said G2a. This is because he was found in the middle of the Raeti/Rhaeti tribes of Venostes and Vennonete who resided in the modern region of Veneto in the alps.
The raeti are , when I read infomation once, 64% G2a

hmmm word association - Venotes & Vennonetes = Veneti ( Venetic) , in the Veneto.

Are the veneti really raeti :startled::grin: or :shocked:


To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.

I really detest these modern theories using modern national borders for propaganda purposes which distort history.
 
G2a was a very likely option, although I voted for another one. It's time to see if comes out more detailed information about him.
 
To finalise, Otzi would not have been a celt or etruscan or venetic or roman or german or bavarian or anything else........he was purely a Raeti person speaking a raetic language and living in raeti lands. We do not have any better than this simplified version.

Sorry, no. We have been there before. The "Raeti" probably were not a homogenous group (the term "Raeti" is very likely to be an exonym!), and the "Raeti" language found in the so-called "Raetic" inscriptions was a language related with Etruscan. The Etruscans were not native to Europe. Whatever language Ötzi spoke, it was unrelated to any of the languages spoken there later.
 

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