Pre-Germanic R1a in Western Europe?

[Asturrulumbo]

Recently, I was observing the R1a patterns in Western Europe and something struck me: the R1a frequencies don't always correlate with the Germanic migrations historically attested, nor with the other haplogroups assumed to be Germanic (namely I1 and R1b-U106). A prime example is Cantabria, in northern Iberia: It seems to have experienced the least Germanic migration, and yet it has the greatest amount of R1a:

What do you think?

 

[sparkey]

We don't need anything earlier than Corded Ware culture to get R1a in Central Europe prior to the formation of proto-Germanic. I think it's mostly consensus that R1a's spread into Central Europe is linked closely to Corded Ware, and that proto-Germanic formed after.

So with Central Europe figured out, we continue to Western Europe: Corded Ware reached the Netherlands, but not some of these other interesting places like Cantabria and Central France.

There are a few possibilities, but my favorite hypothesis goes like this: The genetics of the Corded Ware people, due to close contact, had some spillover into Beaker Culture.

Is anybody familiar with R1a subclades, so we can see if the younger, Germanic R1a is present in the unexpected spots? Or if it forms its own cluster that dates to Beaker Culture, as my hypothesis predicts?

 

[Taranis]

First off, I'd like to agree with Sparkey that with high likelihood, if Cantabrian R1a is not of Germanic origin, a Corded Ware origin would be likely. After having seen his sharp anaylsis of I1, I must say that I'm more sceptical in regard for non-Germanic R1a in Western Europe than I was a while back. Specifically, much of the presence of R1b in Western Europe definitely can be explained by the movements of the Franks, Burgundians, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. However, it is also true that R1a could have arrived these areas earlier. The origin of the Germanic peoples is usually tied with the Nordic Bronze Age and the Iron Age Jastorf Culture, which obviously occurs on the former area of Corded Ware, but not at it's westernmost periphery.

 

[spongetaro]

I have some knowledges concerning R1b subclades but I'm totally unaware of the R1a subclades found in Europe. The study of Indo european genetic is a bit "R1bcentric" I think. Does someone know the subclade of R1a found in Northern Spain and Central France?

 

[Asturrulumbo]

First off, I'd like to agree with Sparkey that with high likelihood, if Cantabrian R1a is not of Germanic origin, a Corded Ware origin would be likely. After having seen his sharp anaylsis of I1, I must say that I'm more sceptical in regard for non-Germanic R1a in Western Europe than I was a while back. Specifically, much of the presence of R1b in Western Europe definitely can be explained by the movements of the Franks, Burgundians, Anglo-Saxons and Vikings. However, it is also true that R1a could have arrived these areas earlier. The origin of the Germanic peoples is usually tied with the Nordic Bronze Age and the Iron Age Jastorf Culture, which obviously occurs on the former area of Corded Ware, but not at it's westernmost periphery.

That westernmost (and southernmost) periphery was largely absorbed by the Beaker folk, was it not? So perhaps that is where some of the W. European R1a comes from, though there is still a lot to be explained about this.

 

[Taranis]

That westernmost (and southernmost) periphery was largely absorbed by the Beaker folk, was it not? So perhaps that is where some of the W. European R1a comes from, though there is still a lot to be explained about this.

Yes, this is what I posted a while back in the Beaker-Bell thread. There is a considerable overlap of Corded Ware and Beaker Bell:

 

[MOESAN]

Yes, this is what I posted a while back in the Beaker-Bell thread. There is a considerable overlap of Corded Ware and Beaker Bell:

View attachment 5301

I should agree with these last posts
Y-R1a (Steppes) is very linked to Corded culture and they was in contact with the Beakers people +
metric studies of COON (I know, it's dated, but was is seen is seen) showed a 'Corded anthropological type' in the mixture of the Bell Beakers of Britain in spite of a heavier influence of 'dinaric types' - the Urnfield people of the Harz region or Germany was derived for a big part of Beakers culture ADN they showed (but on a tiny sample) a majority of Y-I2a2= prévious I2b + 1 Y-R1A + 1 Y-R1B-U106 (the R1b very common among Germanic people - it would be very insteresting to have ancient DNA of Britain Bell Beakers... HUBERT thank that Bell beakers of Britain was come form the Netherland-Westfalen, the area just West to the center Harz (minerals highlands colonized by first German Beakers: Y-I2a1b/I2a2?) in contact with Thuringen (I suppose Thuringed as Y-R1a as that time) -
so some rare Y-R1a moving with Y-I2 in some parts of Iberia isn' t crazy at all for the Beakers areas (the proto-Celts proto-Germanics or more exactly their I-E "teachers"?) -

 

[MOESAN]

I should agree with these last posts
Y-R1a (Steppes) is very linked to Corded culture and they was in contact with the Beakers people +
metric studies of COON (I know, it's dated, but was is seen is seen) showed a 'Corded anthropological type' in the mixture of the Bell Beakers of Britain in spite of a heavier influence of 'dinaric types' - the Urnfield people of the Harz region or Germany was derived for a big part of Beakers culture ADN they showed (but on a tiny sample) a majority of Y-I2a2= prévious I2b + 1
Y-R1A + 1 Y-R1B-U106 (the R1b very common among Germanic people - it would be very insteresting to have ancient DNA of Britain Bell Beakers... HUBERT thank that Bell beakers of Britain was come form the Netherland-Westfalen, the area just West to the center Harz (minerals highlands colonized by first German Beakers: Y-I2a1b/I2a2?) in contact with Thuringen (I suppose Thuringed as Y-R1a as that time) -
so some rare Y-R1a moving with Y-I2 in some parts of Iberia isn' t crazy at all for the Beakers areas (the proto-Celts proto-Germanics or more exactly their I-E "teachers"?) -

I add:
Some Y-R1a in Spain could be arrived there with a few Germanic tribes -see History) but as a whole Germanic impact in Iberia seams very scarce: very few Y-I1, very few Y-R1b-U106... I'have not precise enough knowledge of the Asturian History but I believe there were some Germanic tribes there so... ?. I prefer the Beaker theory for some regions: we can find some Y-I2a2/I2b in Galicia or Portugal and with low levels of Y-I1 and Y-R1b-U106 : not at all the respective percentages found in every Germanic or germanized countries

 

[Segia2]

I add:
Some Y-R1a in Spain could be arrived there with a few Germanic tribes -see History) but as a whole Germanic impact in Iberia seams very scarce: very few Y-I1, very few Y-R1b-U106... I'have not precise enough knowledge of the Asturian History but I believe there were some Germanic tribes there so... ?. I prefer the Beaker theory for some regions: we can find some Y-I2a2/I2b in Galicia or Portugal and with low levels of Y-I1 and Y-R1b-U106 : not at all the respective percentages found in every Germanic or germanized countries

In Asturias Suevi -absorbed by the visigothi- and Vandali Hasdingi -kicked out by the same visigothi-. The total amount of germanics in Spain -including non germanic alani (iranian)- it is estimated around 200000-300000 individuals (with their non-germanic clients) out of a population of 5000000-6000000.

 

[MOESAN]

thank Segia2!

 

[sparkey]

I add:
Some Y-R1a in Spain could be arrived there with a few Germanic tribes -see History) but as a whole Germanic impact in Iberia seams very scarce: very few Y-I1, very few Y-R1b-U106... I'have not precise enough knowledge of the Asturian History but I believe there were some Germanic tribes there so... ?. I prefer the Beaker theory for some regions: we can find some Y-I2a2/I2b in Galicia or Portugal and with low levels of Y-I1 and Y-R1b-U106 : not at all the respective percentages found in every Germanic or germanized countries

Wilhelm and I tried to estimate the Germanic impact on Iberia along patrilines, and ended up with something between 3.5% and 15.25% here (not very precise but gives a reasonable range... I suspect single-digits, as the higher end assumes that some haplogroup subclades that are not exclusive to Germanic peoples, all came from them).

It's important to know the subclade of I2a2, by the way, to better determine where it came from. One (I2a2a) maps much better to Germanic peoples than the other (I2a2b), although both are probably older than proto-Germanic, especially I2a2a. I2a2b is the one found in Urnfield Culture, but keep in mind that it almost certainly wasn't a proto-Germanic speaking culture. Also, we don't have a large enough sample size yet to deduce that Urnfield was I2a2b dominant. I bet that it was present moreso in Urnfield than it is in that area today, but I still suspect that Urfield Culture originated mostly with R1b peoples, and I2a2b was simply absorbed. We'll see.

 

[MOESAN]

Wilhelm and I tried to estimate the Germanic impact on Iberia along patrilines, and ended up with something between 3.5% and 15.25% here (not very precise but gives a reasonable range... I suspect single-digits, as the higher end assumes that some haplogroup subclades that are not exclusive to Germanic peoples, all came from them).

It's important to know the subclade of I2a2, by the way, to better determine where it came from. One (I2a2a) maps much better to Germanic peoples than the other (I2a2b), although both are probably older than proto-Germanic, especially I2a2a. I2a2b is the one found in Urnfield Culture, but keep in mind that it almost certainly wasn't a proto-Germanic speaking culture. Also, we don't have a large enough sample size yet to deduce that Urnfield was I2a2b dominant. I bet that it was present moreso in Urnfield than it is in that area today, but I still suspect that Urfield Culture originated mostly with R1b peoples, and I2a2b was simply absorbed. We'll see.

I agree for the most even if I see something under 6% for true germanic peoples impact on Iberia (depending on the regions: I believe they was a lot in Asturias (coasts) -
before knowing more, I see I2a2a/I2a1 as very ancient (10000 BC) in N-Central N-East Iberia and without any link with Germanic people - concerning Urnfield Culture, I hold there has been some tribes movements at this period and almost surely they beared somme I2a2 (I see as being first Beakers along with I2b old naming) but by by these times (Urnfields) they has been (I believe) absorbed in a mixture where celtic and P-italic people R1b-U152 could have had the leadership (concerning number, with some R1a and R1b-U106, these ones come from the northern margins, of proto-germanic and corded cultures)
on other thread I said my thoughts about dinaric, I2a2 and bell beaker culture - but I was thinking about the earlier stages NOT THE ALL BEAKERS OF ENTIRE CAMPANIFORME PERIOD - after that doping impact the new arrived mixed and lost weight in different crossings and mixtures of cultures arosen from a first stage - and R1a Corded learned a lot with the first Beakers where I2a2 - I2b (Campaniform) had no more the top place (see surveys on Unetice) - in Bell Beakers of Brittain: R1a was yet envolved I think, and some R1b (L21+U106?) - in Tumuli Culture of Western Armoric (associated with Wessex and previous Bell Beakers, they found a skeleton of 'corded' type surely R1a and a huge quantities of cultural wares linked to the Rhine mouth) -so the weight of R1a on the count of I2a2 has been growing up after the first periods of Bell beaker culture (I speak here of the Northern variant of the culture, there is debate on the geographic source of the very first beakers/ S. portugal?, or why not S-E Balkans before all?) -

 

[how yes no 3]

First off, I'd like to agree with Sparkey that with high likelihood, if Cantabrian R1a is not of Germanic origin, a Corded Ware origin would be likely.

As you know I am proponent of idea that tribal names, as primary identity carriers of tribal people, do sometimes over-live language shifts and cultural changes..

if we look at R1a map in Iberia there are actually 2 hotspots of R1a...its wider area of Cantabria with one hotspot in the east inner land area and one on the west coastal area...and some lower level spread between the two that could as well be about long times of genetic spread from the two hotspots... so its not necesserily Cantabria where R1a people settled at some time in the past but its east and northwest corners...

northwest corner hotspot is on sea coast and thus may even be due to Vikings...
east corner is more interesting as it is not so near sea coast...

in ancient Iberia we find there tribes of following names:
Seurri, Lougei and Lemavi

to me this looks like a little colony of tribes later considered as east Germanic
Scirri, Lugii and Lemovii

which all lived in neighboring areas south of Baltic where R1a is significant

if we assume an ancient times colonization of Iberia (and I have elsewhere pointed out similar possible collonies of tribes such as Seurbi, Helleni and Caladuni close to this areas, and also myth of origin of Scotish people describing movement from Scythia to Iberia and than to UK which can be traced in tribal names Chelidoni north of ancient Greece, Caladuni in Iberia and Caledones in Scotland)

its impossible to tell when such a collonization took place and thus whether those tribes were Germanic or pre-Germanic, but i think it is very possible that there is a genetic-tribal name link that can be established by further investigation of actual subclades present...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

its not impossible that east germanic tribes had a colony there in ancient history prior to Roman empire expanding and cutting their link from the colonies...

a memory of that would explain why many east germanic tribes (Suebi, Vandali, Goths) have, when faced with difficult survival battles in east Europe, massively migrated to south and in particular to Iberia.. nations do not just move to random directions passing very long distances...they move where they expect better, more easy life... and they are likely to do that based on some pre-knowledge or even prehistory of living there...

edit: checking at http://r1a.org/3.htm for types of R1a samples found in the Cantabria

not many r1a samples there but from what I can see:
1 northern-eurasian
1 eastern carpathian
1 Baltic-Carpathian
1 Old Scandinavian
1 old European

i would say it is all pinpointing to Baltic area as place of origin...

 

[zanipolo]

interesting article by one who is part of the polish genetic society

Q - Hypothetically speaking, then, a lack of M458 in 3rd-century remains west of the Vistula does not in itself imply that the Slavs expanded out of Belarus or Ukraine.

A - You are of course right, so let me explain why I specifically mentioned the territory west of Vistula as being much more important when evaluating a possible place of origin of M458. With just two exceptions (namely the Trzciniec cultural horizon, covering a huge territory reaching far east behind the Dnieper river, and the West Baltic Barrow culture that is commonly attributed to some West Baltic tribes), all remaining major Bronze Age and Iron Age cultures in Poland were located either on both sides of Vistula (like Lusatian, Pomeranian, Przeworsk and Wielbark cultures) or nearly exclusively on the west side (like the Oksywie culture). Additionaly, nearly all those cultures originated west of Vistula (Wielbark being possibly the only exception in this respect). Therefore, finding some ancient M458 remains east of Vistula while not finding them west of the river would still leave some doubts regarding the origin of those M458 cases. In other words, this would not exclude the possibility that those ancient M458 individuals did not originate in Poland but were either some "occasional" immigrants from east or just remnants of some broader Eastern European cultural horizons (like Trzciniec). Of course, I would make some exceptions from the above rule, accepting for example some M458 cases found in Wielbark just east of the lower Vistula river.

Basically, the term that the slavs originated between the modern cities of Lublin and Lviv still hold true.

 

[MOESAN]

As you know I am proponent of idea that tribal names, as primary identity carriers of tribal people, do sometimes over-live language shifts and cultural changes..

if we look at R1a map in Iberia there are actually 2 hotspots of R1a...its wider area of Cantabria with one hotspot in the east inner land area and one on the west coastal area...and some lower level spread between the two that could as well be about long times of genetic spread from the two hotspots... so its not necesserily Cantabria where R1a people settled at some time in the past but its east and northwest corners...

northwest corner hotspot is on sea coast and thus may even be due to Vikings...
east corner is more interesting as it is not so near sea coast...

in ancient Iberia we find there tribes of following names:
Seurri, Lougei and Lemavi

to me this looks like a little colony of tribes later considered as east Germanic
Scirri, Lugii and Lemovii

which all lived in neighboring areas south of Baltic where R1a is significant

if we assume an ancient times colonization of Iberia (and I have elsewhere pointed out similar possible collonies of tribes such as Seurbi, Helleni and Caladuni close to this areas, and also myth of origin of Scotish people describing movement from Scythia to Iberia and than to UK which can be traced in tribal names Chelidoni north of ancient Greece, Caladuni in Iberia and Caledones in Scotland)

its impossible to tell when such a collonization took place and thus whether those tribes were Germanic or pre-Germanic, but i think it is very possible that there is a genetic-tribal name link that can be established by further investigation of actual subclades present...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

its not impossible that east germanic tribes had a colony there in ancient history prior to Roman empire expanding and cutting their link from the colonies...

a memory of that would explain why many east germanic tribes (Suebi, Vandali, Goths) have, when faced with difficult survival battles in east Europe, massively migrated to south and in particular to Iberia.. nations do not just move to random directions passing very long distances...they move where they expect better, more easy life... and they are likely to do that based on some pre-knowledge or even prehistory of living there...

edit: checking at http://r1a.org/3.htm for types of R1a samples found in the Cantabria

not many r1a samples there but from what I can see:
1 northern-eurasian
1 eastern carpathian
1 Baltic-Carpathian
1 Old Scandinavian
1 old European

i would say it is all pinpointing to Baltic area as place of origin...

YOU WORKS VERY HARD BUT IF YOUR BASIC HYPOTHESIS ABOUT CONSERVATION OF TRIBAL NAMES MERITS SOME RESPECT (AS HYPOTHESIS) I TELL YOU: DON'T JUMP TOO QUICKLY TO CONCLUSIONS WHEN YOU COMPARE SOME NAMES BEARING SOME SIMILITUDE OF SOUNDS OR LETTERS (WHAT IS NOT 100% THE SAME, BY THE WAY) AND BE CAREFUL IN YOUR ASSIGNATIONS: LEMOVII IS RATHER A CELTIC TRIBE AS I THINK
I KNOW MY PRESENT POST DOESN'T PUT THE QUESTION AHEAD, SORRY 6 i SHALL COME AGAIN ON THE QUESTION WHEN I HAVE SEEN MORE DATA
NOS VAD DEOC'H MEMES-TRA

 

[sonici]

They're the Celts of Germany, I think. Perhaps I'm wrong, they might be from "lost" Thrace or Sarmat descended.. but "Celt" thesis is stronger.

 

[Tomenable]

Have you considered the possibility that R1a could spread to some places in South-Western Europe via Frankish Empire's slave trade? Frankish Empire sold to Muslim or Sephardic merchants from Iberia those Pagan West Slavs (Wends, Sorbs, etc.) who were captured in wars along the eastern border. There is also evidence in written records for presence of Slavs in Muslim Iberia. They even served as soldiers in Muslim armies in Iberia (I'm not sure if they served as free mercenaries or as unfree or half-free soldiers recruited from among foreigners, something similar to Janissaries):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries

The Janissaries began as an elite corps of slaves recruited from young Christian boys, and became famed for internal cohesion cemented by strict discipline and order.

One Slavic guy (he was a convert to Islam) even founded his own Kingdom in Iberia - Taifa of Dénia - which existed for over 200 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa_of_Dénia

Article "Slavs of Muslim Spain":

http://michalw.narod.ru/SlavicSpain.html

Among Pagan slaves sold to Iberia could also be Saxons, many of whom were enslaved as the result of Charlemagne's wars against them. But how much R1a was there among Saxons? I think there was more R1a among West Slavs who lived in what is now Eastern Germany.

As Sonici mentioned, some R1a could also get to Iberia with Celts (but Celts were mostly R1b, so I'm not sure).

We need to be more specific and check which subclades of R1a are there in Iberia.

Basically, the term that the slavs originated between the modern cities of Lublin and Lviv still hold true.

lack of M458 in 3rd-century remains west of the Vistula does not in itself imply that the Slavs expanded out of Belarus or Ukraine.

It seems that Z280 - not M458 - was originally "the most Slavic (or Balto-Slavic)" subclade of R1a - see this discussion:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30256-Serb-with-I1?p=438366&viewfull=1#post438366

When it comes to the original homeland of speakers of Proto-Slavic language, here is one of several theories:

https://www.academia.edu/7074384/Fu..._trees_elms_poplars_and_the_aspen_and_maples_

https://www.academia.edu/7074358/THE_HOMELAND_OF_SLAVS_IN_THE_LIGHT_OF_NAMES_OF_SOME_TREES_AND_FISH