Preview: Upcoming Ancient Greek Transect (Mesolithic to Medieval) from Biomuse.

[PaleoRevenge]

All the BC samples so far are fast twitch muscle. And the meat diet up to 90%. Good times back then.

 

[Stefano]

All the BC samples so far are fast twitch muscle. And the meat diet up to 90%. Good times back then.

It's not 90% meat it's up to 90% animal product which includes eggs and dairy, especially dairy i think, from goats and sheeps

 

[Ralphie Boy]

Knowing Classical Greeks were broadly Mycenaean-like before this study was like seeing the writing on the wall. I mean after seeing the Iron Age Greek samples from Spain and many Balkan_IA clusters being fairly close to Aegean BA.
I understand being skeptical in 2018 but not now.
Was there even a migration there from another population or maybe it was a just a civil war that caused the collapse in Greece?

This seems like a reasonable assumption, based on the samples available. Before the Lazaridis et al. study, some thought Mycenaeans were northern invaders and different than Minoans, but it turned out that they were very local. Some also expect the ancient Greeks got a lot of central European ancestry based on burial practices, but so far that also does not seem to be the case (no big Greek Dark Age invasions).

It’s no surprise either that Deep Mani and East Peloponnese were shown in one academic PCA to be closer to Mycenaeans and significantly different than many other Peloponnesians. The Byzantine Empire clung to life a few times, having shrunk to just the Peloponnese and a few other areas. During the Slavic settlement period, it was there only in east Peloponnese. Maybe that has something to do with what we are seeing.

 

[peloponnesian]

^Red hair, blonde hair, blue eyes in some of them, but their genotype is typical of Southern Europe, predominately Anatolian_N.

Not to be a party pooper, but these are most likely based on the HIrisPlex prediction system, so they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Likelihood of blonde hair seems to be overestimated by this system. Also, ancient DNA is pseudo-haploid, which means they read just one of the 2 positions on each SNP. With eye colour, this means that the individual could in reality have been heterozygous on the relevant SNP, which is usually expressed as brown or hazel eyes in the phenotype.

 

[Iulius]

Not to be a party pooper, but these are most likely based on the HIrisPlex prediction system, so they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Likelihood of blonde hair seems to be overestimated by this system. Also, ancient DNA is pseudo-haploid, which means they read just one of the 2 positions on each SNP. With eye colour, this means that the individual could in reality have been heterozygous on the relevant SNP, which is usually expressed as brown or hazel eyes in the phenotype.

That doesn't poop the party for me, because it's not important to me. However, just like southern Europeans today there were surely some of them with light features. Just like southern europeans today, they were predominantly dark hair and brown eyes, with light skin.

 

[Iulius]

What is fascinating to me is that they're consistent with Lazaridis et al. 2017. Not that I doubted it for a second, but that it proves the doubters wrong. The Myceneans and preceeding Greeks were southern European and closest to Southern Italians and Greek populations.

 

[Hawk]

What is fascinating to me is that they're consistent with Lazaridis et al. 2017. Not that I doubted it for a second, but that it proves the doubters wrong. The Myceneans and preceeding Greeks were southern European and closest to Southern Italians and Greek populations.

Southern-European-like people were living during Bronze Age from Southern Central Europe with Encrusted Pottery-like people down to Aegean. It's a "birds-point of view" approach taken here, being more Southern European/Neolithic without specifying further what is the specific admixture.

 

[Iulius]

Yes, it is speculation, but my speculation is also shared by Sarno et al. 2021 and Raveane et al. 2022. But ultimately as you said aDNA will show us.
Please see my last post. I admit to starting it, but we need to move on. Otherwise we will be repeating ourselves in an off topic discussion that will turn off people to the thread.

32 relevant People who share my speculation,

Stefania Sarno, Rosalba Petrilli, Paolo Abondio, Andrea De Giovanni, Alessio Boattini, Marco Sazzini, Sara De Fanti, Elisabetta Cilli, Graziella Ciani, Davide Gentilini, Davide Pettener, Giovanni Romeo, Cristina Giuliani, Donata Luiselli, Alessandro Raveane, Ludovica Molinaro, Serena Aneli, Marco Rosario Capodiferro, Linda Ongaro, Nicola Rambaldi Migliore, Sara Soffiati, Teodoro Scarano, Antonio Torroni, Alessandro Achilli, Mario Ventura, Luca Pagani, Cristian Capelli, Anna Olivieri, Francesco Bertolini, Ornella Semino, Francesco Montinaro

I myself came to the conclusion by my own analysis. Nevertheless I am not alone in my speculation, many prominent geneticists, using more sophisticated tools and methods, more sophisticated than G25, have also reach roughly the same conclusion. So I'm not just some guy on the internet, with obscure ideas.

More and more Italian geneticists are realizing the true origins of the peopling of Italy. No more stupid speculation like Etruscans coming recently from Anatolia, or Nordic Latins.

 

[bigsnake49]

Not to be a party pooper, but these are most likely based on the HIrisPlex prediction system, so they're to be taken with a grain of salt. Likelihood of blonde hair seems to be overestimated by this system. Also, ancient DNA is pseudo-haploid, which means they read just one of the 2 positions on each SNP. With eye colour, this means that the individual could in reality have been heterozygous on the relevant SNP, which is usually expressed as brown or hazel eyes in the phenotype.

According to some of those algorithms I should have blue gray eyes like my father and younger sister. Instead I inherited my mother's brown eyes.

 

[bigsnake49]

When is the paper coming out? And more importantly when are the samples available?

 

[Iulius]

According to some of those algorithms I should have blue gray eyes like my father and younger sister. Instead I inherited my mother's brown eyes.

I don't understand what you mean. I don't think these people personally ran your DNA for you to come to that conclusion.

 

[Iulius]

When is the paper coming out? And more importantly when are the samples available?

Looking forward to that myself.

 

[Iulius]

32 relevant People who share my speculation,
Stefania Sarno, Rosalba Petrilli, Paolo Abondio, Andrea De Giovanni, Alessio Boattini, Marco Sazzini, Sara De Fanti, Elisabetta Cilli, Graziella Ciani, Davide Gentilini, Davide Pettener, Giovanni Romeo, Cristina Giuliani, Donata Luiselli, Alessandro Raveane, Ludovica Molinaro, Serena Aneli, Marco Rosario Capodiferro, Linda Ongaro, Nicola Rambaldi Migliore, Sara Soffiati, Teodoro Scarano, Antonio Torroni, Alessandro Achilli, Mario Ventura, Luca Pagani, Cristian Capelli, Anna Olivieri, Francesco Bertolini, Ornella Semino, Francesco Montinaro
I myself came to the conclusion by my own analysis. Nevertheless I am not alone in my speculation, many prominent geneticists, using more sophisticated tools and methods, more sophisticated than G25, have also reach roughly the same conclusion. So I'm not just some guy on the internet, with obscure ideas.
More and more Italian geneticists are realizing the true origins of the peopling of Italy. No more stupid speculation like Etruscans coming recently from Anatolia, or Nordic Latins.

Imho, we ultimately will see that populations in the south, modeled a two-way of Steppe like plus minoan, are primarily responsible for pulling modern Italians to their current position, from Etruscans and Italics. It was a local internal migration within Italy, with a population that has been there since the Early Bronze Age. Not what what the odd bedfellows of levantists/nordicists/woke liberals believe.

 

[Carnimirie]

Or the Macedonian samples so that speculation about the Greekness of Ancient Macedonians can be cut at least by 99%. There are some Balkan individuals that have been throwing conspiracy theory accusation that the Greek government is suppressing genetic studies because the ancient greeks might turn out to be not Greeks after all .Of course the new accusation will be that they threw away all the samples that did not fit the official narrative.

Unless I'm mistaken "Tenea" is Dorian land while the two nobles "Archontiko" are Macedonian, both very low steppe

 

[bigsnake49]

View attachment 13228

Unless I'm mistaken "Tenea" is Dorian land while the two nobles "Archontiko" are Macedonian, both very low steppe

Abdera was a Ionian colony, right? Even if was mixed it would be Thracians.

 

[bigsnake49]

I don't understand what you mean. I don't think these people personally ran your DNA for you to come to that conclusion.

Not these people. There was an algorithm at GEDmatch that predicted people's eyer color. It predicted blue gray eyes which is my father's and younger sister's color instead of taking into account my mother's side of that debate.

 

[enter_tain]

Doric/Western Greeks are different than the rest of Greeks. Idk what some are talking about? I predicted this exactly. Ancient Doric Greeks cluster more with Albanians. That's where the Dorian invasion happened.

That's the chart I made a few months ago. Aegean Greeks/Minoans are more CHG-heavy and Mediterrenean.

 

[enter_tain]

Lazaridis ****** up by not mentioning Slavic ancestry that transformed the Balkans. Pretty dishonest academically.

 

[Dianatomia]

Lazaridis ****** up by not mentioning Slavic ancestry that transformed the Balkans. Pretty dishonest academically.

Don't agree with you there. What Lazaridis proved was that first Greeks were Mediterranean, rather than anything else. And that the modern Greeks and neighboring peoples were similar to them, but with some delusion of their genepool. That was the essense of the research. Like the rest of us, he didn't know exactly to what extent other people invaded Greece after the Bronze Age. But this was less relevant at that point of time. It's not that anyone expected modern Greeks to be pure Mycenaens. It's only later research which started to shed ligh into the Slavic admixture in the Balkans.

Doric/Western Greeks are different than the rest of Greeks. Idk what some are talking about? I predicted this exactly. Ancient Doric Greeks cluster more with Albanians. That's where the Dorian invasion happened.

I postulated that Doric Greeks were somewhat different as well. But we still don't have sufficient evidence for that.

 

[Dianatomia]

Abd4 probably represent the Hellenistic graves of Abdera, Greek Thrace. (Update: they have a video in Greek where they explain their research. Abd4 is 700-490 B.C. So it is the classical age. They are colonists from Asia Minor)

https://www.academia.edu/36208241/HELLENISTIC_GRAVES_IN_ABDERA.pdf

In Akanthos, Chalkidiki, Northern Greece another ancient grave site was found. Akanthos was colonized by Greeks from the island of Andros. In the first century it was named Ierissos. So given the chosen name the graves are older than that.

Akanthos was colonized by people from Andros (not far from Attica). Originally Ionians. Hence they overlap with Mycenaeans.

It looks like Classical Greeks constituted of the following types: Mycenaeans, Dorians (somewhat more Northern admixtue), and Eastern Greeks who were pulled towards Cypriots. Similarly, in North-Western Asia Minor Greeks will be pulled both towards the North as well as to Cyprus. Athenians, may have all of this types due to their empire. As their empire was pointed towards Ionia/Asia Minor, while there were migrants from the North of Greece as well as Thracian slaves. We can't discard that in isolated mountain areas of the mainland Log01 and Log02 types could still be found.