Question to people from the Balkans

FrankN

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When I worked in Bulgaria in 1992, a Bulgarian friend exposed me to an essay titled "The Eternal Province" in a local English-language magazine. The essay started with considerations on the word "province" (pro vincia -> to the victorious), and postulated that Bulgaria had always oriented culturally on the "victorious": Rome/ Byzantium/ Istanbul until 1850, Vienna and Berlin between 1850 and 1945, Moscow from 1945 to 1990, and the USA (NYC & Hollywood) thereafter. The article contrasted this to a "normal" pattern, which would rather search for cultural inspiration from and exchange with nearby centres, i.e. - in the case of Sofia - with Plovdiv, Belgrade, Bucuresti, Thessaloniki and Tirana. The author concluded that Bulgaria needed to emancipate culturally, gain self-confidence and start interacting with her neighbours, though he was sceptical whether his country would ever move beyond being "the eternal province".

Since it has been quite a long time that I have worked on the Balkans, I would be interested to learn from Balkanite forum members whether:
  1. You feel that "eternal province" can also to some extent be applied to your country / region?
  2. There is change going on towards more regional exchange and less orientation on the "victorious"?
 
Здравейте Frank. Аз не знам английски, и да рискуват на пост-карикатура, но мисля, че вашите наблюдения са правилни. Иронията е, че повечето хора не харесват, че "ходене зад победителя", но се оказаха неспособни на обща организация. Възможно е да бъде свързан с усещането, че в крайна сметка на "големия шеф", "голям център" ще наложи своето мнение. Или просто копиране на успешен модел. Не знам. България е най-осакатени в националната борба в началото на миналия век, "винаги от губещата страна", и че по-нататъшното повишаване на недоверието в "велики сили".
 
Technology and ideas always come from places with strong economy, a lot of capital and population. Nobody in the Balkans has a lot of these 3, so naturally they seek to copy for many things. But nevertheless the Balkans does not lose its flavor and character. A Bulgarian can act German, but he is not really trying to be one, he thinks he is better...
 
Здравейте Frank. Аз не знам английски, и да рискуват на пост-карикатура, но мисля, че вашите наблюдения са правилни. Иронията е, че повечето хора не харесват, че "ходене зад победителя", но се оказаха неспособни на обща организация. Възможно е да бъде свързан с усещането, че в крайна сметка на "големия шеф", "голям център" ще наложи своето мнение. Или просто копиране на успешен модел. Не знам. България е най-осакатени в националната борба в началото на миналия век, "винаги от губещата страна", и че по-нататъшното повишаване на недоверието в "велики сили".
Thanks for the reply, kokki. Since I never managed to really learn Bulgarian (altogether I only spent some six months there), I put the comment into a translation programme. Here the outcome:
Hello Frank. I do not know English, and risk of post-cartoon, but I think your observations are correct. The irony is that most people do not like that 'walking behind winner', but were unable to common organization. It may be associated with the feeling that eventually the 'big boss', 'large center' will have their opinions. Or just copy the successful model. I do not know. Bulgaria is the maimed in the national struggle in the beginning of the last century, 'always on the losing side', and that a further increase distrust in 'great Powers'.
The translation is not perfect, but I think I understand what you want to say, and you definitely did not post a caricature.
 
Balkans are actually more diverse then you think, mentality differs greatly.
 
It's not a case of following the most powerful, if this were the case then history would have proven this to be so. The Balkans is a region where cultures and religions have created a unique situation, within the fragmented society there are very clear fault lines. To understand these fault lines better I refer you to the old American Western 'the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly'. History in the Balkans has traditionally been viewed in terms of 'the Good' = People like us; 'the Bad' = People who are different; and 'the Ugly' = People who have a similar culture but do not belong to our group. For example, Serbs and Croats view each other as 'the Ugly' because of the Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox divide and traditional loyalties shown towards the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople. Similarly the Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and other Christian communities view Turks as 'the Bad' following many centuries of religious persecution towards the Christian communities residing in the Balkans. Interestingly, most foreigners don't understand the emotional conflict stemming from this 'frame of reference'. Then there are tensions between Eastern Orthodox neighbours such as Greece and Bulgaria stemming from centuries of conflict between Constantinople (Eastern Roman Empire) and Bulgarian Empire. Traditionally, Bulgaria has always coveted the coastline on the Aegean Sea. Russia has coveted the prestigious title of Patriarch of Constantinople. Similarly, the Serbs have always coveted the coastline on the Adriatic Sea placing them at odds with Albania and Croatia (Dalmatia).

There is however a common link to Germany in Greece and Bulgaria, the Royal family. Greece was the first Balkan nation to declare War on Germany in WWII, proving that Greeks were more focused on the integrity of Greece's borders with Bulgaria and Turkey, even if that monarch spoke Greek and adopted the Greek Orthodox faith as his own, it would not matter if Greece ceased to exist. This said, there has always been a strong class divide within the Balkans, most obvious in Greece due to it's capitalist undertones stemming from Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire. Wealthy Greeks are not homogenous in their worldview and never have been. The most striking example of this is to be found in the early days of the Modern Greek State and the founding of Modern Greece. There were three political parties in Government, the English, the Russian and the German. The Greek nobility was in the diaspora, a wealthy merchant class had emerged to rule Greece. Within this three-party system the poor Greek farmer/fisherman followed his archon, needless to say ... elections were never free or fare.

Today things have changed surprisingly little. The language divide prohibits the interchange of knowledge between cultures and old 'the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly' views of the world abound in this land of myth and fairytale. Oh, and another thing ... the 'Iron Curtain'. Politically, the majority of the Balkan population are Russian at heart. Religiously, they are Eastern Orthodox. Culturally, they are Byzantine. The minority groups are Roman Catholic and Muslim, and look towards Italy and Turkey ... and are culturally Italo-Celtic and Turkish.
 
Bulgarians are completely Slavic. Just look at their shapely conical legs
 
It's not a case of following the most powerful, if this were the case then history would have proven this to be so. The Balkans is a region where cultures and religions have created a unique situation, within the fragmented society there are very clear fault lines. To understand these fault lines better I refer you to the old American Western 'the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly'. History in the Balkans has traditionally been viewed in terms of 'the Good' = People like us; 'the Bad' = People who are different; and 'the Ugly' = People who have a similar culture but do not belong to our group. For example, Serbs and Croats view each other as 'the Ugly' because of the Roman Catholic vs Eastern Orthodox divide and traditional loyalties shown towards the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople. Similarly the Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians and other Christian communities view Turks as 'the Bad' following many centuries of religious persecution towards the Christian communities residing in the Balkans. Interestingly, most foreigners don't understand the emotional conflict stemming from this 'frame of reference'. Then there are tensions between Eastern Orthodox neighbours such as Greece and Bulgaria stemming from centuries of conflict between Constantinople (Eastern Roman Empire) and Bulgarian Empire. Traditionally, Bulgaria has always coveted the coastline on the Aegean Sea. Russia has coveted the prestigious title of Patriarch of Constantinople. Similarly, the Serbs have always coveted the coastline on the Adriatic Sea placing them at odds with Albania and Croatia (Dalmatia).

There is however a common link to Germany in Greece and Bulgaria, the Royal family. Greece was the first Balkan nation to declare War on Germany in WWII, proving that Greeks were more focused on the integrity of Greece's borders with Bulgaria and Turkey, even if that monarch spoke Greek and adopted the Greek Orthodox faith as his own, it would not matter if Greece ceased to exist. This said, there has always been a strong class divide within the Balkans, most obvious in Greece due to it's capitalist undertones stemming from Byzantium and the Ottoman Empire. Wealthy Greeks are not homogenous in their worldview and never have been. The most striking example of this is to be found in the early days of the Modern Greek State and the founding of Modern Greece. There were three political parties in Government, the English, the Russian and the German. The Greek nobility was in the diaspora, a wealthy merchant class had emerged to rule Greece. Within this three-party system the poor Greek farmer/fisherman followed his archon, needless to say ... elections were never free or fare.

Today things have changed surprisingly little. The language divide prohibits the interchange of knowledge between cultures and old 'the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly' views of the world abound in this land of myth and fairytale. Oh, and another thing ... the 'Iron Curtain'. Politically, the majority of the Balkan population are Russian at heart. Religiously, they are Eastern Orthodox. Culturally, they are Byzantine. The minority groups are Roman Catholic and Muslim, and look towards Italy and Turkey ... and are culturally Italo-Celtic and Turkish.

you couldnt be more wrong.

Serbs and Croats dont have similar culture, language is similar, or even could be said same, but culturally there is very little similarity, and you mention Roman Catholics looking towards Italy, well, since we are only Catholics worth mentioning, I assure you we dont look towards Italy.
Actually there was lot of friction between us and Italy in past, like they were our number 1 enemy at some point, but today we are friendly.

That text you wrote just shows how little you know
 
you couldnt be more wrong.

Serbs and Croats dont have similar culture, language is similar, or even could be said same, but culturally there is very little similarity, and you mention Roman Catholics looking towards Italy, well, since we are only Catholics worth mentioning, I assure you we dont look towards Italy.
Actually there was lot of friction between us and Italy in past, like they were our number 1 enemy at some point, but today we are friendly.

That text you wrote just shows how little you know

Hello Dalmat, I don't know where you saw me state that Serbs and Croats have a similar culture. In fact I stated that they view each other as 'the Ugly' not due to their similar culture but due to them both being Christian communities. I was referring to religion, not culture. There are similarities and differences though, the major difference between these two communities is their different Christian denominations and their historical epicenters. Serbs have an affinity with Byzantium (Constantinople/Moscow) due to their Eastern Orthodox tradition. Croats have a long history within the Venetian sphere of influence. The Roman Catholic epicenter is located in Rome, Italy. Other Balkan Catholics do exist and are also worth mentioning here. Slovenia, Albania and Greece have significant Roman Catholic communities with a historical link to Italy, whether it be Venice, Genoa or the Vatican ... it's immaterial. You know better than I where you look towards as a member of the Roman Catholic faith.
 
Hello Dalmat, I don't know where you saw me state that Serbs and Croats have a similar culture. In fact I stated that they view each other as 'the Ugly' not due to their similar culture but due to them both being Christian communities. I was referring to religion, not culture. There are similarities and differences though, the major difference between these two communities is their different Christian denominations and their historical epicenters. Serbs have an affinity with Byzantium (Constantinople/Moscow) due to their Eastern Orthodox tradition. Croats have a long history within the Venetian sphere of influence. The Roman Catholic epicenter is located in Rome, Italy. Other Balkan Catholics do exist and are also worth mentioning here. Slovenia, Albania and Greece have significant Roman Catholic communities with a historical link to Italy, whether it be Venice, Genoa or the Vatican ... it's immaterial. You know better than I where you look towards as a member of the Roman Catholic faith.

i dont veiw vatican as italian, sorry, its a international institution, a country of its own

thing with us and serbs is they are on border betwen west and east balkan, and actually share more with east balkan nations than us, and not only in religion, but folk customs, music, mentality, etc. even tho we got closer during Yugoslavia


I know Serbs get angry of this, but its how it is, while some Croats like to say we are the same, they do this because it makes serbs happy, not because its the truth.
...and its not just me saying , on my genetic similarity, Serbs come at 9th place, after almost every country around and beyond, 8th if we dont include Croats who are on my 1st place



As for few catholics, well they are few and between, and are mostly catholics on personal level. Slovenians are not part of Balkan.
 

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