R1b-DF27* - Iberia.

[—BoNe—]

El análisis del haplogrupo R1b-DF27 muestra que una gran fracción de los linajes ibéricos del cromosoma Y se originaron recientemente in situ | Informes científicos

Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ - Scientific Reports

Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain...

www.nature.com

El enriquecimiento de la diana del cromosoma Y revela una rápida expansión del haplogrupo R1b-DF27 en Iberia durante la transición de la Edad del Bronce | Informes Científicos

Y-chromosome target enrichment reveals rapid expansion of haplogroup R1b-DF27 in Iberia during the Bronze Age transition - Scientific Reports

The Y chromosome can yield a unique perspective into the study of human demographic history. However, due to the repetitive nature of part of its sequence, only a small set of regions are suitable for variant calling and discovery from short-read sequencing data. These regions combined represent...

www.nature.com

DISERTACIÓN DE PATRICIA VILLAESCUSA
Nuevos conocimientos sobre el paisaje genético paterno del suroeste de Europa: disección del haplogrupo r1b-m269 y aplicaciones forenses.

https://addi.ehu.es/bitstream/handle/10810/42321/TESIS_VILLAESCUSA_URBANEJA_PATRICIA.pdf?sequence=1

Según la tesis doctoral, existen alrededor de 33 ramas no documentadas que se han clasificado como DF27*. Es probable que ZZ12 se encuentre entre ellas y esté parcialmente representada, representando entre el 25 % y el 35 % de DF27*. Esto indica una alta probabilidad de que la rama ZZ12 se origine en Lisboa, Andalucía o el norte de la Península Ibérica.

Z195* parece haber surgido en el noroeste, en Asturias, alrededor del 2600-2500 a. C. Posteriormente se expandió con los vasos campaniformes y llegó a dominar el Mediterráneo oriental (cultura de El Argar).

Portugal y Barcelona muestran las tasas más altas de M269* antes de P312, alrededor del 10%–15%, que probablemente estén relacionadas con P310*, L151*, P312*, U106*, L21* o U152*.

A continuación se muestra un resumen de todos los datos en imágenes:

Mapas de la tesis de Patricia.

Estudio de la naturaleza 2.

Principales haplogrupos Y de la Península Ibérica.

Principales haplogrupos mt de la Península Ibérica.

 

[MOESAN]

https://addi.ehu.es/bitstream/handle/10810/42321/TESIS_VILLAESCUSA_URBANEJA_PATRICIA.pdf?sequence=1

On page 160 you have images of the DF27* rates that accumulate in the western part, having about 33 undocumented branches, zz12 will be among them represented partly, but still reaches 25-35% of DF27* and can only be native to Lisbon, Andalusia or the North of the Iberian Peninsula.
Z195* was born in the northwestern part of Asturias around 2600-2500 BC and later dominated the eastern Mediterranean. (Argar)

Portugal and Barcelona have the highest rates of M269* before P312, around 10% of which will be related to P310*, L151*, P312* U106*, L21*,U152*

I find it surprising that the study is more than 6 years old and you continue to ignore them and that the Yamnaya hypothesis is still standing, you have created a third semantic field in which the biased mixtures of PCA weigh more than the chronological order of the subclades. Children can never be born before their parents.

could you develop please, and give us dates?

 

[—BoNe—]

What I want to point out is that, based on the study’s data, the oldest documented forms of DF27 so far appear to be concentrated in the western part of the Iberian Peninsula, near the Atlantic regions. It gives me the impression that around 3000 BC, a related elite arrived, exploring various Atlantic areas in parallel with transhumance practices. About 250 years later, they began to mix with local populations, and by 2500 BC, their descendants began to appear, already split into subclades like P312. All mythologies—Celtic, Viking, Roman, and Greek—share the same archetypes. Even though people at the time had no concept of haplogroups or surnames, I don’t believe they lost awareness of their ancestral lines. What likely varied was the antiquity they attributed to ancestors they no longer remembered directly.

Regarding horse domestication, based on two studies published in Nature, the first identified the haplogroup of the stallion that became dominant around 2200 BC, which they called DOM2:

Widespread horse-based mobility arose around 2200 bce in Eurasia - Nature

Analyses of 475 ancient horse genomes show modern horses emerged around 2200 bce, coinciding with sudden expansion across Eurasia, refuting the narrative of large horse herds accompanying earlier migrations of steppe peoples across Europe.

www.nature.com

In a follow-up study focused on refining the genealogical tree, this lineage was reclassified as DAC. Therefore, other domestic horses from the 3500–2200 BC period would belong to the DA1 haplogroup.

These lineages represent the breeds that spread alongside the early carriers of R1b-P310, L151, and P312:

Refining the evolutionary tree of the horse Y chromosome - Scientific Reports

The Y chromosome carries information about the demography of paternal lineages, and thus, can prove invaluable for retracing both the evolutionary trajectory of wild animals and the breeding history of domesticates. In horses, the Y chromosome shows a limited, but highly informative, sequence...

www.nature.com

The DA1-U haplogroup found in wild horses in the Americas corresponds to those introduced by the Spanish. Since very few Spanish horse samples were included in the studies, the researchers—like in many similar cases—overlooked an important detail: the vast majority of Lusitano horses carry the DA1-U lineage. This suggests that this haplogroup may have been present in the Iberian Peninsula even before 2200 BC, predating the spread of DAC. Most other DA1 horses tend to be small, pony-type animals, whereas the Lusitano remains a fully functional riding and working horse.

All of this brings me back to the point that the oldest Bell Beaker pottery was found in Portugal. I believe there are still many ancient samples—both archaeological and within the current population of that region—that remain unstudied. Conclusions were drawn too hastily when it was assumed that the Beaker phenomenon only began to arrive around 2500 BC. Yet across the rest of Europe, it doesn’t seem to appear clearly until around 2400 BC.

I’m from the Extremadura region, and I carry L151* without any derived mutations. From what I’ve seen, the roughly 50 samples from Extremadura—used as the basis for all R1b data in the area—are the same ones that Maciamo once used. That means we don’t have reliable data for my region, and I get the sense that the average age of this lineage could be significantly older than it appears at first glance.

In southern Portugal, some studies show high frequencies of U152, possibly dating back to before 2000 BC—suggesting it didn’t arrive from Central Europe as traditionally assumed.

 

[MOESAN]

So you are L151*, so a dead end? (humor)
The northern BB's seems beginning about 2500 BC. The first potteries found could be since 2900/2800 BC in western and southwestern Iberia. The question is we are not sure of the typical Y-haplo lineages of these first Iberian BB's and of their identity and common origin with the male lineages which dominated the northern BB culture.

 

[—BoNe—]

Yes, in a way it’s a dead end

On the other hand, it’s a relief because I don’t waste time tracing lineages—just living in Spain means my “recessive endogamy” inevitably falls back on DF27, since the average Spaniard always has at least 3 to 6 great-great-grandfathers who were DF27.

 

[—BoNe—]

Compilation of ancient samples from the Iberian Peninsula:

Iberos - Levante Norte y Sur.

*GBVPK (2.380 AC)-Narbona, Occitania HapY-R1b1a/1b1a/1a2a/1-Z195
*I3494 (1.836 AC)-Coveta del Frare, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b- DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1/b
*I1312d (1.782 AC)-Can Roqueta, Barcelona-Bronce Nordeste HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-HV0
*I3397 (1.741 AC)-Lloma de Betxí, Valencia-Bronce Valenciano HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-K1a2/b
*I3487 (1.675 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P310-Mit-H1e1/a
*I4559 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona Hap Y-R1b-P311-Mit-J1c1
*I4563 (1.600 AC)-Galls Carboners, Tarragona HapY-R1b- Df27-Z195-Mit-H1/H84
*I3486 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-H1q
*I3488 (1.600 AC)-Cabezo Redondo, Alicante-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0@195
*Pir001 (1.600 AC)-Cueva del Pirulejo, Córdoba-Cultura del Argar HapY-R1b-L23-Mit-K1a13
*I1836 (1.593 dC)-Cova del Gigante, Barcelona. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-U5a2/b3
*I8570 (1.400 dC)-Tossal Mortorum, Castellón. HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3

*I3315 (861 AC)-Naveta des Tudons-C.Talayótica- HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b1
*I12641 (665 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-HV0d
*I12640 (618 AC)-Can Revella, Barcelona-Cultura Íbera-Layetania. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1t
*I6491 (600 AC) Mas Gassol, Alcover, Tarragona HapY-R1b-PF7589-Mit-H4a1a
*I8211 (475 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Mit-HV0
*I8344 (450 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera Hap Y-R1b1a/1a-Mit-H3
*I12410 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H
*I12877 (445 AC)-Mas Den Boixos, Barcelona-Cultura Layetana HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-J1c1
*I8210-(425 AC)- Ampurias (Gerona) Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b1a/1a2-Mit-U5b3
*I8209 (425 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U1a1/a
*I8212 (425 d.C.)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H27
*I8341 (425 d.C.)- Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Íbera. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1
*I3323 (284 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-X2b
*I3324 (276 AC)-Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1
*I3496 (250 AC)-Turó de Can Oliver, Barcelona-Layetanos HapY-R1b-Df27-Mit-H1e1/a
*I3326 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-P297-Mit-J1c
*I3327 (225 AC)- Sant Andreu, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes. HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a
*I3321 (200 AC) El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U3a
*I3320 (200 AC)-El Racó de la Rata, Castellón-Ilerkavones. HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-I1
*I8206 (200 AC)-Ampurias, Gerona-Cultura Ibérica-Indiketes HapY-R1b-Df27-Z195-Mit-H7a1

Atlántico- Galicia, Portugal - Galaicos-Lusitanos

*I7691 (1.950 d.C.)-Monte da Cabida, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-J1c1
*Tv32032 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-X2b@226
*Tv3831 (1.585 AC)-Torre Velha, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-H1-
*Mg104 (1.507 AC)-Monte do Gato, Portugal-Bronce Atlántico. HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

*I7687 (950 AC)-Gruta de Medronhal-Cultura Lusitana HapY-R1b-L502-Mit-V


Cantábrico-Vizcaya- Astures Trasmontanos, Galaicos

*I3238 (2.350 AC)-Cueva de la Paloma, Asturias. HapY-R1b1a/1a2a-L49-Mit-H3

Vascos

*AU52921 (1600 d.C.)-LaGuardia - Álava, Vasco Nativo HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-H3ap

Meseta Norte-Castilla la Vieja, Álava -Astures Cismontanos, Vacceos, Vettones, Turmogos, Autrigones

*EHU002 (2.434 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a4/a1
*EHU001 (2.165 AC)-El Hundido, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-U5a1/b1
*I5665 (2.133 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-K1a24/a
*VAD001 (1.741 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-Df27-Z225-Mit-U5b1
*I6470 (1.651 AC)-Pago del Virgazal, Burgos-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-J1c1
*VAD005 (1.644 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo Meseta HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-J2b1/a2
*VAD002 (1.608 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS5082-Mit-J2b1/a2
*I1840 (1.557 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-L52-Mit-H3ap
*I2472 (1.515 AC)-El Sotillo (Álava) Bronce Antiguo HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-K1a
*Esp005 (1.500 AC)-Cueva de los Lagos, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a
*I3492 (1.500 AC)-Los Tordillos, Salamanca-Cogotas I HapY-R1b-M269-Mit U5b1
*VAD004 (1.464 AC)-Valdescusa, La Rioja-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-L151-Mit-J1c3
*I2470 (1.321 AC)-El Sotillo, Álava-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-J2a1/a1
*I12209 (1.289 AC)-La Requejada, Valladolid-Cultura de las Cogotas I HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-H1ah

Meseta Sur-Castilla la Nueva Carpetanos, Oretanos

*I6539 (2.301 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2b3
*I6588 (2.250 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-U5b2/b3
*I6472 (2.250 AC)-La Magdalena, Madrid-Cultura Campaniforme HapY-R1b-U152-PF6658-Mit-HV0b
*I3485 (2.200 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete, Ciudad Real-Campaniforme HapY-R1b-CTS2229-Mit-J1c1
*I3756 (1.897 d.C.)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-DF27-ZZ12-Mit-H1
*I12809 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-H1j
*I12855 (1.825 AC)-Castillejo del Bonete-Cultura de las Motillas HapY-R1b-M269-Mit-K1a
*I6618 (1.786 AC)-Humanejos, Madrid-Edad del Bronce HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-U5b3

Andalucía-Andalucía Occidental-Andalucía Oriental - Turdetanos, Bastetanos

*I10939 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray, Cádiz-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-DF27-Mit-K1a3/a
*I10940 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b1a/1a-CTS3876-Mit-H1e1/a
*I10941 (1.650 AC)-Cueva de Bray-Bronce Andalucía HapY-R1b-P312-Mit-T2e1
*I12561 (600 AC)-La Angorrilla, Sevilla-Ilipa, Cultura Tartésica HapY-R1b-P311-Mit-H1

 

[ArmandoR1b]

I’m from the Extremadura region, and I carry L151* without any derived mutations.

Who did you test with? YFull doesn't show any modern samples that are L151* without any derived mutations https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/ and neither does FTDNA https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L151/classic

Most ancient specimens that are L151* is because there is no coverage for all subclades.

If it's from an autosomal test like 23andme they don't test for P312, DF27, Z195 or ZZ12_1. MyHeritage results depend on the version but I am pretty sure not all subclades of L151 are tested.

 

[—BoNe—]

Who did you test with? YFull doesn't show any modern samples that are L151* without any derived mutations https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L151/ and neither does FTDNA https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L151/classic

Most ancient specimens that are L151* is because there is no coverage for all subclades.

If it's from an autosomal test like 23andme they don't test for P312, DF27, Z195 or ZZ12_1. MyHeritage results depend on the version but I am pretty sure not all subclades of L151 are tested.

The oldest specimen in Spain with Steppe ancestry that has direct radiocarbon dating is a female from El Arroyal 1. I0462 2569-2344 calBCE

The Steppe DNA in those samples is based on results from puntDNAL. I have never heard of that being a reliable calculator.

I have never read about anyone ever saying EHU002 shows to be derived for a ZZ12 SNP. Who said this and based on what? Did they provide the exact SNP and position? A screenshot of IGV with the proof? What do you mean by BAM file refinement? Do you mean analysis? How do you know how good or bad of a job Iñigo did? Do you have evidence that he did not do a good job? Isn't that defamation to say that if you don't have proof?

I’ll answer both questions here because the OP from the other thread already pointed out that we were going off-topic.

My test was done in a lab, not through a commercial DNA company. I’ve had my entire genome analyzed—equivalent to the most expensive paid tests. My case is unique because I didn’t do the test to find out where I came from. A fellow biology student was researching Iberian Bell Beakers, so he contacted colleagues from different regions to look for rare subclades of R1b. That’s how he found my case—L151*—and did a deep refinement for free.

If I had spent € 1000 at a DNA company, it would only have served to register my branch, but I wouldn’t have had any matches with known modern lineages. We do know there are more L151* branches, but they’re so rare that for now they’re not useful. And given how few there are, it will take a long time before we make any real progress.

Steppe ancestry was already present throughout the Iberian Peninsula since the Chalcolithic, as I showed in the links in the other thread.

Iñigo Olalde and many others manipulate PCAs to fit their narrative. All academics do this—none of them are actual authorities in the field. I don’t know a single biologist who respects them.

I read about the ZZ12 result of “El Hundido” (EHU002) on Twitter a while ago. After some time has passed following publication, the raw data files are usually made public, but in most cases they’re not fully refined. That’s why individuals sometimes edit the BAM files directly and publish their own findings. Since they’re not well-known figures, I don’t give them much weight—but I do take note, because it’s entirely possible that it had already derived into DF27 and ZZ12.

Almost all R1b-P312> samples are poorly refined. They’re only analyzed down to the main branches.

Science is supposed to be based on peer confirmation, but in the field of archaeogenetics, they sold the Yamnaya fairy tale first, and they’ve been running in circles for the past 15 years.

No L51* individual has ever been found on the Steppe between 4500–3000 BCE.

It has never been proven that the P312* Bell Beaker individuals from Germany are older than those from Spain. Yet for some strange reason, the narrative always goes: Steppe > Germany > Spain.

Archaeology indicates a flow from Caucasus/Steppe/Balkans > Spain > Germany.

The Bell Beaker pottery in Iberia dates to 2900 BCE, while in Central Europe it appears around 2500 BCE.

No DNA tests have yet been conducted in the western zone of the Iberian Peninsula where the earliest Bell Beaker pottery (~2900 BCE) has been found. Most of the samples we do have come from the eastern zone, which is more strongly dominated by the Z195 variant.

 

[MOESAN]

I’ll answer both questions here because the OP from the other thread already pointed out that we were going off-topic.

My test was done in a lab, not through a commercial DNA company. I’ve had my entire genome analyzed—equivalent to the most expensive paid tests. My case is unique because I didn’t do the test to find out where I came from. A fellow biology student was researching Iberian Bell Beakers, so he contacted colleagues from different regions to look for rare subclades of R1b. That’s how he found my case—L151*—and did a deep refinement for free.

If I had spent € 1000 at a DNA company, it would only have served to register my branch, but I wouldn’t have had any matches with known modern lineages. We do know there are more L151* branches, but they’re so rare that for now they’re not useful. And given how few there are, it will take a long time before we make any real progress.

Steppe ancestry was already present throughout the Iberian Peninsula since the Chalcolithic, as I showed in the links in the other thread.

Iñigo Olalde and many others manipulate PCAs to fit their narrative. All academics do this—none of them are actual authorities in the field. I don’t know a single biologist who respects them.

I read about the ZZ12 result of “El Hundido” (EHU002) on Twitter a while ago. After some time has passed following publication, the raw data files are usually made public, but in most cases they’re not fully refined. That’s why individuals sometimes edit the BAM files directly and publish their own findings. Since they’re not well-known figures, I don’t give them much weight—but I do take note, because it’s entirely possible that it had already derived into DF27 and ZZ12.

Almost all R1b-P312> samples are poorly refined. They’re only analyzed down to the main branches.

Science is supposed to be based on peer confirmation, but in the field of archaeogenetics, they sold the Yamnaya fairy tale first, and they’ve been running in circles for the past 15 years.

No L51* individual has ever been found on the Steppe between 4500–3000 BCE.

It has never been proven that the P312* Bell Beaker individuals from Germany are older than those from Spain. Yet for some strange reason, the narrative always goes: Steppe > Germany > Spain.

Archaeology indicates a flow from Caucasus/Steppe/Balkans > Spain > Germany.

The Bell Beaker pottery in Iberia dates to 2900 BCE, while in Central Europe it appears around 2500 BCE.

No DNA tests have yet been conducted in the western zone of the Iberian Peninsula where the earliest Bell Beaker pottery (~2900 BCE) has been found. Most of the samples we do have come from the eastern zone, which is more strongly dominated by the Z195 variant.

What cultures would have preceded BB's along the route? The stelae people theory?
For L51 I think todate it was around eastern Carpathian first and effectively didn't take part in number in the west to east journeys.
As you I regret the lack of anDNA for the first BB pottery core region

 

[MOESAN]

I’ll answer both questions here because the OP from the other thread already pointed out that we were going off-topic.

My test was done in a lab, not through a commercial DNA company. I’ve had my entire genome analyzed—equivalent to the most expensive paid tests. My case is unique because I didn’t do the test to find out where I came from. A fellow biology student was researching Iberian Bell Beakers, so he contacted colleagues from different regions to look for rare subclades of R1b. That’s how he found my case—L151*—and did a deep refinement for free.

If I had spent € 1000 at a DNA company, it would only have served to register my branch, but I wouldn’t have had any matches with known modern lineages. We do know there are more L151* branches, but they’re so rare that for now they’re not useful. And given how few there are, it will take a long time before we make any real progress.

Steppe ancestry was already present throughout the Iberian Peninsula since the Chalcolithic, as I showed in the links in the other thread.

Iñigo Olalde and many others manipulate PCAs to fit their narrative. All academics do this—none of them are actual authorities in the field. I don’t know a single biologist who respects them.

I read about the ZZ12 result of “El Hundido” (EHU002) on Twitter a while ago. After some time has passed following publication, the raw data files are usually made public, but in most cases they’re not fully refined. That’s why individuals sometimes edit the BAM files directly and publish their own findings. Since they’re not well-known figures, I don’t give them much weight—but I do take note, because it’s entirely possible that it had already derived into DF27 and ZZ12.

Almost all R1b-P312> samples are poorly refined. They’re only analyzed down to the main branches.

Science is supposed to be based on peer confirmation, but in the field of archaeogenetics, they sold the Yamnaya fairy tale first, and they’ve been running in circles for the past 15 years.

No L51* individual has ever been found on the Steppe between 4500–3000 BCE.

It has never been proven that the P312* Bell Beaker individuals from Germany are older than those from Spain. Yet for some strange reason, the narrative always goes: Steppe > Germany > Spain.

Archaeology indicates a flow from Caucasus/Steppe/Balkans > Spain > Germany.

The Bell Beaker pottery in Iberia dates to 2900 BCE, while in Central Europe it appears around 2500 BCE.

No DNA tests have yet been conducted in the western zone of the Iberian Peninsula where the earliest Bell Beaker pottery (~2900 BCE) has been found. Most of the samples we do have come from the eastern zone, which is more strongly dominated by the Z195 variant.

What cultures would have preceded BB's along the route? The stelae people theory?
For L51 I think todate it was around eastern Carpathian first and effectively didn't take part in number in the west to east journeys.
As you I regret the lack of anDNA for the first BB pottery core region

 

[—BoNe—]

What cultures would have preceded BB's along the route? The stelae people theory?
For L51 I think todate it was around eastern Carpathian first and effectively didn't take part in number in the west to east journeys.
As you I regret the lack of anDNA for the first BB pottery core region

Some archaeologists had already speculated, as early as 2012, that there was symbolic continuity from the Neolithic > Chalcolithic > Bell Beaker period > Bronze Age > Tartessos.

Las semillas de Tartesos, la cultura Megalítica de “los Idolos Oculados”.

Volver al Índice. Los contenidos de este artículo, incluidas sus imágenes, están recogidos del estudio realizado por Victor Hurtado ,...

megalitismoatlantico.blogspot.com

Atlantic Megalithism: The Seeds of Tartessos, the Megalithic Culture of the “Idolos Oculados” (Eyed Idols)

http://museoarqueologicobadajoz.juntaex.es/filescms/web/uploaded_files/Idolos_estilos_y_territorios_VICTOR_HURTADO.pdf

Is there anything similar to those anthropomorphic idols with crossed arms?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycladic_figures

Cycladic figurines – Wikipedia

In the Naqada culture, they also depicted a similar pose:

Amratian culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Naqada I – Wikipedia

The element connecting the origin of that style could be found in Anatolia, and it may have followed the same route as the spread of cattle.

Urfa Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Urfa Man – Wikipedia


Finally, I don’t know if you’re referring to the warrior stelae from the Iberian Peninsula dated between 2000–1000 BC, but they seem to show considerable stylistic continuity and appear to represent oppida—fortified settlements similar to those of the Chalcolithic.

https://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/39/22/10CELESTINO.pdf

Because of this whole set of “similar” styles, I find a Black Sea > Balkans > Europe migration more plausible than a Steppe > Europe one.

That’s why I support an Atlantic origin for P312 rather than a Central European one.

In the Atlantic zone of France between 3000–2500 BC, do you have anything similar?

 

[LAGASKA]

Some archaeologists had already speculated, as early as 2012, that there was symbolic continuity from the Neolithic > Chalcolithic > Bell Beaker period > Bronze Age > Tartessos.

Las semillas de Tartesos, la cultura Megalítica de “los Idolos Oculados”.

Volver al Índice. Los contenidos de este artículo, incluidas sus imágenes, están recogidos del estudio realizado por Victor Hurtado ,...

megalitismoatlantico.blogspot.com

Atlantic Megalithism: The Seeds of Tartessos, the Megalithic Culture of the “Idolos Oculados” (Eyed Idols)

http://museoarqueologicobadajoz.juntaex.es/filescms/web/uploaded_files/Idolos_estilos_y_territorios_VICTOR_HURTADO.pdf

Is there anything similar to those anthropomorphic idols with crossed arms?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycladic_figures

Cycladic figurines – Wikipedia

In the Naqada culture, they also depicted a similar pose:

Amratian culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Naqada I – Wikipedia

The element connecting the origin of that style could be found in Anatolia, and it may have followed the same route as the spread of cattle.

Urfa Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Urfa Man – Wikipedia


Finally, I don’t know if you’re referring to the warrior stelae from the Iberian Peninsula dated between 2000–1000 BC, but they seem to show considerable stylistic continuity and appear to represent oppida—fortified settlements similar to those of the Chalcolithic.

https://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/39/22/10CELESTINO.pdf

Because of this whole set of “similar” styles, I find a Black Sea > Balkans > Europe migration more plausible than a Steppe > Europe one.

That’s why I support an Atlantic origin for P312 rather than a Central European one.

In the Atlantic zone of France between 3000–2500 BC, do you have anything similar?

Y Haplogroups Assigments-2.500 genomes Reich Lab-EHU002 belongs to R1b1a1b1a1a2a7-DF27>Z2559, ergo the sample from el Hundido is not only the second oldest P312 in Europe, it is very likely to be the oldest DF27.

R1b1a1b1a:L51/M412/S167/PF6536, R1b1a1b1a1310/S129/PF6546, R1b1a/1b1a/1a:L151/PF6542

R1b1a1b1a1aF6543/S1159/YSC0000191, R1b1a1b1a1a2312/S116/PF6547/MF52579

R1b1a1b1a1a2a7:A12032/S24844,


It is true that one explanation could have been that it entered Iberia from Germany with the bell-beaker culture in a reflux movement as Sangmeister defended, the problem is that in the site of El Hundido there is only Ciempozuelos type pottery which is exclusive of Iberia and non-existent in Germany. That is to say, if it has German origin, that P312 >DF27 sample had to acculturate subtly and miraculously when crossing the Pyrenees.

BoNe, some things you say are interesting, others not so much, in any case it is always good to say hello to a Spaniard.

 

[MOESAN]

Y Haplogroups Assigments-2.500 genomes Reich Lab-EHU002 belongs to R1b1a1b1a1a2a7-DF27>Z2559, ergo the sample from el Hundido is not only the second oldest P312 in Europe, it is very likely to be the oldest DF27.

R1b1a1b1a:L51/M412/S167/PF6536, R1b1a1b1a1310/S129/PF6546, R1b1a/1b1a/1a:L151/PF6542

R1b1a1b1a1aF6543/S1159/YSC0000191, R1b1a1b1a1a2312/S116/PF6547/MF52579

R1b1a1b1a1a2a7:A12032/S24844,


It is true that one explanation could have been that it entered Iberia from Germany with the bell-beaker culture in a reflux movement as Sangmeister defended, the problem is that in the site of El Hundido there is only Ciempozuelos type pottery which is exclusive of Iberia and non-existent in Germany. That is to say, if it has German origin, that P312 >DF27 sample had to acculturate subtly and miraculously when crossing the Pyrenees.

BoNe, some things you say are interesting, others not so much, in any case it is always good to say hello to a Spaniard.

Two questions?
- the fact DF27 is or is not born in Germany is not so important: it is issued of a P312 population who was not by force in Iberia at first.
- pottery is a females question - all P312 descendants seem born by a pop' with very fast demographic growing - some southwards moves could have implied dominantly males sets which males adopted the domestic artefacts of the preceding BB's. (I think still that BB's culture knowed a go and return phenomenon, but after quick adoption by one of its components, rather the one from North)
I may be mistaken. Only Y-DNA and anDNA of first BB southwestern Iberia can give us an answer without ambiguity.

 

[LAGASKA]

Some archaeologists had already speculated, as early as 2012, that there was symbolic continuity from the Neolithic > Chalcolithic > Bell Beaker period > Bronze Age > Tartessos.

Las semillas de Tartesos, la cultura Megalítica de “los Idolos Oculados”.

Volver al Índice. Los contenidos de este artículo, incluidas sus imágenes, están recogidos del estudio realizado por Victor Hurtado ,...

megalitismoatlantico.blogspot.com

Atlantic Megalithism: The Seeds of Tartessos, the Megalithic Culture of the “Idolos Oculados” (Eyed Idols)

http://museoarqueologicobadajoz.juntaex.es/filescms/web/uploaded_files/Idolos_estilos_y_territorios_VICTOR_HURTADO.pdf

Is there anything similar to those anthropomorphic idols with crossed arms?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycladic_figures

Cycladic figurines – Wikipedia

In the Naqada culture, they also depicted a similar pose:

Amratian culture - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Naqada I – Wikipedia

The element connecting the origin of that style could be found in Anatolia, and it may have followed the same route as the spread of cattle.

Urfa Man - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Urfa Man – Wikipedia


Finally, I don’t know if you’re referring to the warrior stelae from the Iberian Peninsula dated between 2000–1000 BC, but they seem to show considerable stylistic continuity and appear to represent oppida—fortified settlements similar to those of the Chalcolithic.

https://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/39/22/10CELESTINO.pdf

Because of this whole set of “similar” styles, I find a Black Sea > Balkans > Europe migration more plausible than a Steppe > Europe one.

That’s why I support an Atlantic origin for P312 rather than a Central European one.

In the Atlantic zone of France between 3000–2500 BC, do you have anything similar?

Y Haplogroups Assigments-2.500 genomes Reich Lab-EHU002 belongs to R1b1a1b1a1a2a7-DF27>Z2559, ergo the sample from el Hundido is not only the second oldest P312 in Europe, it is very likely to be the oldest DF27.

R1b1a1b1a:L51/M412/S167/PF6536, R1b1a1b1a1310/S129/PF6546, R1b1a/1b1a/1a:L151/PF6542

R1b1a1b1a1aF6543/S1159/YSC0000191, R1b1a1b1a1a2312/S116/PF6547/MF52579

R1b1a1b1a1a2a7:A12032/S24844,


It is true that one explanation could have been that it entered Iberia from Germany with the bell-beaker culture in a reflux movement as Sangmeister defended, the problem is that in the site of El Hundido there is only Ciempozuelos type pottery which is exclusive of Iberia and non-existent in Germany. That is to say, if it has German origin, that P312 >DF27 sample had to acculturate subtly and miraculously when crossing the Pyrenees.

BoNe, some things you say are interesting, others not so much, in any case it is always good to say hello to a Spaniard.

Two questions?
- the fact DF27 is or is not born in Germany is not so important: it is issued of a P312 population who was not by force in Iberia at first.
- pottery is a females question - all P312 descendants seem born by a pop' with very fast demographic growing - some southwards moves could have implied dominantly males sets which males adopted the domestic artefacts of the preceding BB's. (I think still that BB's culture knowed a go and return phenomenon, but after quick adoption by one of its components, rather the one from North)
I may be mistaken. Only Y-DNA and anDNA of first BB southwestern Iberia can give us an answer without ambiguity.

-P312 is western and Df27 is an aquitanian-occitanian-iberian issue.

-Yeah, pottery is a women's business, hence the importance of exogamy, but there were migrations of both men and women related to the BBC.

-We have many genomes from pre-Bell Beaker and BBC sites in the Tagus estuary. All BBC samples are I2a-M438 in different clades. The BBc moved northward following the course of the Tagus and Guadiana rivers. In Castile they were found with R1b-P312 and the Ciempozuelos style, the origin of this style remains to be definitively demonstrated.

 

[MOESAN]

Y Haplogroups Assigments-2.500 genomes Reich Lab-EHU002 belongs to R1b1a1b1a1a2a7-DF27>Z2559, ergo the sample from el Hundido is not only the second oldest P312 in Europe, it is very likely to be the oldest DF27.

R1b1a1b1a:L51/M412/S167/PF6536, R1b1a1b1a1310/S129/PF6546, R1b1a/1b1a/1a:L151/PF6542

R1b1a1b1a1aF6543/S1159/YSC0000191, R1b1a1b1a1a2312/S116/PF6547/MF52579

R1b1a1b1a1a2a7:A12032/S24844,


It is true that one explanation could have been that it entered Iberia from Germany with the bell-beaker culture in a reflux movement as Sangmeister defended, the problem is that in the site of El Hundido there is only Ciempozuelos type pottery which is exclusive of Iberia and non-existent in Germany. That is to say, if it has German origin, that P312 >DF27 sample had to acculturate subtly and miraculously when crossing the Pyrenees.

BoNe, some things you say are interesting, others not so much, in any case it is always good to say hello to a Spaniard.

Two questions?
- the fact DF27 is or is not born in Germany is not so important: it is issued of a P312 population who was not by force in Iberia at first.
- pottery is a females question - all P312 descendants seem born by a pop' with very fast demographic growing - some southwards moves could have implied dominantly males sets which males adopted the domestic artefacts of the preceding BB's. (I think still that BB's culture knowed a go and return phenomenon, but after quick adoption by one of its components, rather the one from North)
I may be mistaken. Only Y-DNA and anDNA of first BB southwestern Iberia can give us an answer without ambiguity.

Y Haplogroups Assigments-2.500 genomes Reich Lab-EHU002 belongs to R1b1a1b1a1a2a7-DF27>Z2559, ergo the sample from el Hundido is not only the second oldest P312 in Europe, it is very likely to be the oldest DF27.

R1b1a1b1a:L51/M412/S167/PF6536, R1b1a1b1a1310/S129/PF6546, R1b1a/1b1a/1a:L151/PF6542

R1b1a1b1a1aF6543/S1159/YSC0000191, R1b1a1b1a1a2312/S116/PF6547/MF52579

R1b1a1b1a1a2a7:A12032/S24844,


It is true that one explanation could have been that it entered Iberia from Germany with the bell-beaker culture in a reflux movement as Sangmeister defended, the problem is that in the site of El Hundido there is only Ciempozuelos type pottery which is exclusive of Iberia and non-existent in Germany. That is to say, if it has German origin, that P312 >DF27 sample had to acculturate subtly and miraculously when crossing the Pyrenees.

BoNe, some things you say are interesting, others not so much, in any case it is always good to say hello to a Spaniard.

-P312 is western and Df27 is an aquitanian-occitanian-iberian issue.

-Yeah, pottery is a women's business, hence the importance of exogamy, but there were migrations of both men and women related to the BBC.

-We have many genomes from pre-Bell Beaker and BBC sites in the Tagus estuary. All BBC samples are I2a-M438 in different clades. The BBc moved northward following the course of the Tagus and Guadiana rivers. In Castile they were found with R1b-P312 and the Ciempozuelos style, the origin of this style remains to be definitively demonstrated.

OK, thanks. I hope you're right.
But if true, it could imply, first P312* in Iberia were not from the pop which created the domestic BB pottery and it would confirm my views that the 'steppe'rich P312 ( come from central Europe?) were adopters of SOME BB's elite artefacts. THey surely come with "their" females at first but in Iberia they were not everywhere too numerous and took a lot of local female, what could explain a partial acculturation, a lost of 'steppe' DNA and adoption of local language(s) by time (Vasconic, Iberian and others...) . How and when exactly took place the first contacts between launchers and adopters, I don't know. Southwestern France? More south-west?
It stays the question of the obsessional morphology of a lot of numerous BB's ('dinaric'-like) in diverse sites (southern Spain, Pyrenees, Provence, middle Rhine, Britain, Ireland... of the time). It seems the BB's (P312*) at first were not so CWC-like and that they could have taken a more southern route from East to West, maybe through a region near the Balkans? What doesn't imply Mediterranea by force. I think they mote CWC people in Germany/Czechia,.maybe after they had run the Rhône highway. There they turned into the typical mix of center-northwestern BB's who peopled the Netherlands and Britain and whose a part reversed again towards South.

 

[LAGASKA]

Two questions?
- the fact DF27 is or is not born in Germany is not so important: it is issued of a P312 population who was not by force in Iberia at first.
- pottery is a females question - all P312 descendants seem born by a pop' with very fast demographic growing - some southwards moves could have implied dominantly males sets which males adopted the domestic artefacts of the preceding BB's. (I think still that BB's culture knowed a go and return phenomenon, but after quick adoption by one of its components, rather the one from North)
I may be mistaken. Only Y-DNA and anDNA of first BB southwestern Iberia can give us an answer without ambiguity.

OK, thanks. I hope you're right.
But if true, it could imply, first P312* in Iberia were not from the pop which created the domestic BB pottery and it would confirm my views that the 'steppe'rich P312 ( come from central Europe?) were adopters of SOME BB's elite artefacts. THey surely come with "their" females at first but in Iberia they were not everywhere too numerous and took a lot of local female, what could explain a partial acculturation, a lost of 'steppe' DNA and adoption of local language(s) by time (Vasconic, Iberian and others...) . How and when exactly took place the first contacts between launchers and adopters, I don't know. Southwestern France? More south-west?
It stays the question of the obsessional morphology of a lot of numerous BB's ('dinaric'-like) in diverse sites (southern Spain, Pyrenees, Provence, middle Rhine, Britain, Ireland... of the time). It seems the BB's (P312*) at first were not so CWC-like and that they could have taken a more southern route from East to West, maybe through a region near the Balkans? What doesn't imply Mediterranea by force. I think they mote CWC people in Germany/Czechia,.maybe after they had run the Rhône highway. There they turned into the typical mix of center-northwestern BB's who peopled the Netherlands and Britain and whose a part reversed again towards South.

That is the only rational explanation for what we are seeing in Iberia, southern France and Italy. That is, if P312* is German (or central-european), then only small groups of explorers (miners, hunters, traders) reached Aquitaine, Occitania, Iberia or Italy, mixed with local women and acculturated quickly adopting the local campaniform culture and losing their language. Later population movements carried variants of this culture to the rest of Europe. This would explain why the Iberians, Tartessians, Aquitans, Rhaetians, Etruscans and part of the Occitanians spoke NON-IE languages.