R1b-S28/u152 in Sicily? A product of Romans, Lombards or Normans?

@Wesgard,
Wiki is usually a good place to start, not just for the articles but for the links to the papers, because you might find that your interpretation of the papers and that of the Wiki author might be different.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards_of_Sicily

It was discussed on this site on this thread:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/27388-Normans-Gallo-Italics-and-Lombards-DNA-in-Sicily

No, the Lombards weren't mostly soldiers.

However, if your ancestry is mostly from around Palermo this would have less application to you. The Lombards were settled mostly in Central and Eastern Sicily where the Saracens held on the longest. It was both an attempt to pacify those areas and when the expulsions took place to sort of fill in the gaps.

You have the map upthread showing you the number of Roman colonies. There were more in southern Spain than in Sicily.

As to the Normans, as was pointed out to you, they were French speaking adventurers from Normandy. How "Scandinavian" they were by the time they arrived is anyone's guess. It doesn't really matter in my opinion because there were so few of them. To be the best of my recollection there were 80 soldiers or knights in the original group. Now, I'm sure more came, but this wasn't a big folk migration.

As to U-152, there isn't a ton of it in Sicily or in southern Italy in general. We just don't know yet how to assign percentages to different migrations. That's what the poster upthread was talking about when he mentioned the Bell Beakers. They're another possibility.

If you're interested in the y line, we're discussing Italian y dna, including Sicilian y dna on this thread.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/35355-More-Y-Dna-results-from-Italy

For autosomal comparisons, go to gedmatch.com, upload your raw data, and try the different calculators.

There is a spread sheet for the dodecad.com Dienekes calculators so once you have your results on the various Dienekes calculators you can compare yourself to other Sicilians and Italians.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Me2vweYJN2mNtnDaypabv31sy2-kSWVhNJvanIsWtJU/edit#gid=0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...0SRE5L6ED2osPs9M/edit?hl=en_US&hl=en_US#gid=0
 
Wesgarde, Nat Geo 2.0 isn't detailed enough to give deep clades of U152. If fact, none of the cheap tests (23andMe, Living DNA, etc.) dig much deeper than U152. You would have to order one of those:

1) a full Y chromosome test like FGC's Y Elite Ancestry Test ($645), which is the most detailed test you will find for Y-DNA haplogroups. It will find most of the mutations, even new ones that haven't been identified and are unique to you and your family. This test is the best if you have money and want to discover new SNPs covering all your recent ancestors (as new mutations/SNPs happen every generation and accumulate in subsequent generations).

2) FTDNA's Y-111 (359$), which does not test any SNPs (only STR), but can be used to predict your deep clade (although it's not 100% accurate as it's a prediction, and does not identify new clades). IMO, it's overpriced.

3) You could also order a panel of SNPs specific for U152 subclades. The cheapest I know if Y-Seq R1b-U152 superpanel (99$), which tests over 300 deep clades under U152 (most of the known ones). That's probably you best bet as it's reasonably cheap and will give you your exact branch (unless you belong to a rare yet undiscovered one).
 
wesgarde said:
Come again? What are you insinuating if you don't mind me asking?
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What ?? Insinuating ??
I've just said that R1b U152 in Western Sicily could be (in part) of Bell Beaker heritage

Do you know what Bell Beaker is? The dispersal of R1b-M269 in Europe seems strickly related to them
 
Cato said:
What ?? Insinuating ??
I've just said that R1b U152 in Western Sicily could be (in part) of Bell Beaker heritage

Do you know what Bell Beaker is? The dispersal of R1b-M269 in Europe seems strickly related to them
Click to expand...

The fact that the only ancient U152 found so far comes from Germany and belonged to the German Bell Beaker does not mean that it necessarily arrived in Italy with the Bell Beaker.
 
No, but it's a possibility, "fino a prova contraria" :)
 
Cato said:
No, but it's a possibility, "fino a prova contraria" :)
Click to expand...

Indeed, but U152 is too spread in Italy and has many subclades. Very likely those German U152 entered in the Urnfield cultures. Both Bell Beaker and Urnfield cultures could have played a role in spreading these lineages in Italy, and it obviously depends on the subclade. Some Z36 could have arrived later in Italy, from La Tene or Hallstatt to Canegrate/Golasecca.

We have a Bell Beaker from Parma and he was R1b1a1a2a1a2 (P312) and K1a2a.

Capture.JPG
 
Sure, obviously it's not just Bell Beaker, i would add Polada culture in the list of the "spreading" cultures.
 
Cato said:
Sure, obviously it's not just Bell Beaker, i would add Polada culture in the list of the "spreading" cultures.
Click to expand...

Yes, likely. Polada which may have anticipated subsequent movements.
 
Pax Augusta said:
The fact that the only ancient U152 found so far comes from Germany and belonged to the German Bell Beaker does not mean that it necessarily arrived in Italy with the Bell Beaker.
Click to expand...

What is your personal opinion on the presence of R1b S28 near the Palermo area?
 
Marciamo, thanks so much for the great response. I was wondering if there is an option whereby I don't necessarily have to pay ticket price again? Like is there a program where I can just enter my direct dys markers/genetic identification stuff from 2.0 and they look deeper into my ancestry? I thought ftdna does this?


Also for everyone, people are mentioning that the Elymians and Sicanians may be R1b s28 but a website here http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm#haplogroups

States this:
Speaking very broadly, the most frequent Y haplogroups of the world's most conquered island may be correlated most probably (albeit imprecisely) to the following peoples:
Estimated percentage of haplogroup presence
in Sicily circa 1400.• J1 - Arabs, Berbers, Carthaginians, Jews,
• J2 - Greeks, Romans, Jews, Spaniards,
• R1b - Germans, Normans, Longobards, Aragonese, Spaniards, Romans,
• I1 & I2b - Vikings and Normans,
• I & I2a - Elymians,
• E1b1b - Arabs and Berbers,
• G - Arabs and Elymians,
• N - Vikings and Normans,
• K - Arabs, Greeks, Berbers, Carthaginians,
• H - Arabs,
• T - Phoenicians, Carthaginians.

I know we're not supposed to generalize, but Given that, and the fact that Romans didn't normally colonize Roman Sicily, generally speaking can we assess that R1b s28 in Sicily tends to be medieval in origin?

If so, near the Palermo area and in general, North West Sicily, how common is it to see R1b s28 among Sicilians of Norman descent.
 
wesgarde said:
Also for everyone, people are mentioning that the Elymians and Sicanians may be R1b s28 but a website here http://www.bestofsicily.com/genetics.htm#haplogroups

States this:
Speaking very broadly, the most frequent Y haplogroups of the world's most conquered island may be correlated most probably (albeit imprecisely) to the following peoples:
Estimated percentage of haplogroup presence
in Sicily circa 1400.• J1 - Arabs, Berbers, Carthaginians, Jews,
• J2 - Greeks, Romans, Jews, Spaniards,
• R1b - Germans, Normans, Longobards, Aragonese, Spaniards, Romans,
• I1 & I2b - Vikings and Normans,
• I & I2a - Elymians,
• E1b1b - Arabs and Berbers,
• G - Arabs and Elymians,
• N - Vikings and Normans,
• K - Arabs, Greeks, Berbers, Carthaginians,
• H - Arabs,
• T - Phoenicians, Carthaginians.
Click to expand...


As you said, that's a website, and bestofsicily.com is not even one of the most credible and reliable websites.


wesgarde said:
What is your personal opinion on the presence of R1b S28 near the Palermo area?
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It depends on the subclade, but it can be due to many reasons. Italics, Romans, Lombards/Gallo-Italic of Sicily, other migrations from mainland Italy...
 
Well what subclades in Sicily are direct markers of Gallo-Roman Norman? And does the Palermo region play a part in any of it?

And being that I have an illegitimate surname, are there any programs or spreadsheets where I can enter my haplogroup in and see which other families I'm related to so I can better discover what my ancestry is (i.e. Track down the origin and original last name of my ancestor)?
 
Also can anyone comment on how accurate haplogroup predictors are with just 25 markers?
 
Maciamo said:
It will ultimately depend on the subclade. Most Z56 and Z192 is probably of Roman (or more broadly Italic) origin. But it's also possible that some people from Lombardy and Normandy who were of Roman descent may have hitched a ride with the Germanic invaders until Sicily.

Very few Scandinavians and North Germans belong to U152, but some do, so some U152 in Italy might be or Germanic origin too (a tiny minority though, probably less than 1% of all U152). The vast majority (>95%) of Scandinavian U152 fall under the L2 clade. The most common L2 subclades in Scandinavia appear to be Z41150 (especially S8183 and Z142), followed by Z258 (Z34 and L20). But these are found all over Northeast Europe, so they aren't specifically Scandinavian.

The reason for the elevated percentage of U152 in northern Sicily might be the number of native French people who came during the Norman occupation. The majority of Normans would have been of French/Gaulo-Roman descent rather than of Scandinavian descent.
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I agree with you. I am sicilian. My family name is Blandini. This family name is more common in France than in Sicily. And it was an ancient roman family name as well.
 
Blandini is definitely 100 percent an Italian name. I can't imagine it being French.
 
Blandin is common in France, i don't know if there is a relation

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To be honest i don't care much, but i know that many times surnames had been modified or italianized (ex. Van Wittel = Vanvitelli), no idea if this is the case, you should ask to donriccardo....

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