Red hair existed in pre-historic Europe

Fire Haired14

Banned
Messages
2,185
Reaction score
582
Points
0
Y-DNA haplogroup
R1b DF27*
mtDNA haplogroup
U5b2a2b1
169fab2bb42f250e49344f3886ef5aa7.jpg

Geneticker posted the genotypes of some of the ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's an informative 23andme article about red hair variants.

http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/

I don't mean to be biased and ethnocentric about my own hair color, just it's nice to confirm some people in pre-historic times had red hair. Two of the Haak genomes appear to have been redheads and 6 were carriers for red hair.

This is especially true for the Mesolithic people of Motala Sweden. 3/7(I0013, I0012, I0016) had a red hair variant(rs1110400, rs1805007, rs1805008). One of them(I0016) had two red hair variants which according to Hirisplex means he was most defiantly a redhead. The Moatal_HGs appear to have been Albino-like compared to swathy WHGs from west Europe. They didn't just have a lot of red hair, one was a carrier for blonde hair, 7/7 had blue eyes, and most had light skin alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982.

Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.
 
Last edited:
169fab2bb42f250e49344f3886ef5aa7.jpg

Geneticker posted the genotypes of the 69 ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/03/07/phenotype-snps-from-prehistoric-europe/

Here's an informative 23andme article about red hair variants.

http://blog.23andme.com/health-traits/no-im-not-irish/

I don't mean to be biased and ethnocentric about my own hair color, just it's nice to confirm some people in pre-historic times had red hair. Two of the Haak genomes appear to have been redheads and 6 were carriers for red hair.

This is especially true for the Mesolithic people of Motala Sweden. 3/7(I0013, I0012, I0016) had a red hair variant(rs1110400, rs1805007, rs1805008). One of them(I0016) had two red hair variants which according to Hirisplex means he was most defiantly a redhead. The Moatal_HGs appear to have been Albino-like compared to swathy WHGs from west Europe. They didn't just have a lot of red hair, one was a carrier for blonde hair, 7/7 had blue eyes, and most had light skin alleles in rs1426654 and rs16891982.

Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.

He posted less than half of the 69
 
Ergo, R1B did not bring red hair into Europe from the East during the Bronze Age.
 
169fab2bb42f250e49344f3886ef5aa7.jpg

Geneticker posted the genotypes of some of the ancient Europeans genomes from Haak 2015 in several key phenotype SNPs.
Genetiker also claims that the R1b in Iberian neolithic is descend of paleolithic Gravettians. Since than I find his conclusions dubious. Even if he might be right on this one.
 
Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.
 
Neanderthals 50 kya years ago sported read hair in Europe.

But I doubt they have much connection to red hair in humans today. The Motala_HGs are directly connected because they have the same markers. MCR1 mutations associated with red hair today are most popular in the north and Baltic seas, which was the region SHG-types lived. Modern ones in Europe could be getting it from Mesolithic SHG-types.

If you picture the primitive, cold, and harsh world the Motala_HGs lived in it makes you wonder if they were so Albino-like because of their environment.
 
Here are the other ancient individuals who were carriers of red hair.

LBK I0025(rs11547464), Bell beaker I0113(rs1805007), Halberstadt_LBA I0099(rs1805007, rs1805009).

According to Hirisplex because Halberstadt_LBA I0099 has two red hair variants he was most likely a redhead.

Interesting - Halberstadt I0099 was part of the Lusatian culture.

His Y-DNA haplogroup was R1a Z280 and his mtDNA haplogroup was H23.

He died around 1113 - 1021 years BCE. From Haak et. al. 2015:

ID number - I0099
Pop Label for Analysis - Halberstadt_LBA
Culture - Late Bronze Age [Urnfield cultures, precisely - Lusatian culture)
Group - LBA
Location and sample details (e.g. sample, grave and museum ID) - Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, Germany; HAL36C, grave 40, feature 1114
Date (lab no.) - 1113-1021 cal BCE (MAMS 21484)
Country - Germany
Sex - M
mt-hg - H23
Y-hg - R1a1a1b1a2 [Z280]

http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

image.png


http://s1.postimg.org/z962wr6hb/Halberstadt.png

Halberstadt.png


https://translate.google.com/#auto/..., восточно-альпийский, чехословацкий и другие

Today Z280 is most common among Slavic and Baltic populations:

R1a1a1b1a2 (S204 / Z91, S466 / Z280) - an Eastern European marker (probably Balto-Slavic), is found throughout Central and Eastern Europe, the western limit of distribution stretches from East to South-western Germany and further to the north-eastern Italy, is spread in Russians, Ukrainians, Volga Tatars and others. Inside branches divided into several clusters studied so far only in general terms: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, Eastern Alps, Czechoslovakia and others.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

R1a-Z280 is also a Balto-Slavic marker, found all over central and Eastern Europe, with a western limit running from East to south-west Germany and to Northeast Italy. It can be divided in many clusters: East Slavic, Baltic, Pomeranian, Polish, Carpathian, East-Alpine, Czechoslovak, and so on.

According to Underhill 2014, the highest frequency of Z280 is among Russians from Belgorod (48,3%) and from Oryol (47,7%):

The distance from Oryol to Belgorod is 300 km by road:

Oryol_Belgorod.png


Some groups of Belarusians and Ukrainians also have over 40% of Z280:

Underhill_2014.png


But where is the highest diversity of Z280 ???
 
But I doubt they have much connection to red hair in humans today. The Motala_HGs are directly connected because they have the same markers. MCR1 mutations associated with red hair today are most popular in the north and Baltic seas, which was the region SHG-types lived. Modern ones in Europe could be getting it from Mesolithic SHG-types.

If you picture the primitive, cold, and harsh world the Motala_HGs lived in it makes you wonder if they were so Albino-like because of their environment.
Surely there is a new allele involved now in red hair than Neanderthal had. However it is not very conclusive after so many thousands of years and many mutations where it came from. Let's see what genomes of gravettians will tell in the future.
 
Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
LBK I0025: - / T2b
Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).

This can't be true....Maciamo said Indo-Europeans brought it.

Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.
 
Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.

I believe you are correct.

However, Maciamo's point is that because R1B "correlates" with red hair in Europe today, therefore they must be the "cause" of red hair, in essence bringing over the trait from the East.

The new data suggests otherwise.

It appears red hair has been in Europe since before the Mesolithic and is an indigenous trait. Red hair actually correlates to areas that were hunter-gatherer refuges from Neolithic farmers. It's frequent in fringe locations like Scotland, Scandinavia, the Alps, and even in the Eastern fringes of Europe with Udmurts (who are y-dna "N" btw). Unless R1B L-51 was hiding somewhere in the North West with HGs (highly unlikely but nothing surprises me anymore with genetics :)) then the invading males married the red-haired natives, as you say.
 
Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
LBK I0025: - / T2b
Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).



Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.
Red hair could have been replaced by more blond mutations. Could it be the transitional step into more blondism of north Europe?
 
However, Maciamo's point is that because R1B "correlates" with red hair in Europe today, therefore they must be the "cause" of red hair, in essence bringing over the trait from the East.

It does not necessarily suggest otherwise. After all, red hair could be present both in the East and in the West.

Indo-Europeans could spread the trait from the East even if the same trait (or a very similar one) existed also in the West.

If LeBrok is right that this trait comes from Neanderthals, then admixture could happen anywhere between the Altai and Iberia.

Neanderthals were not restricted to Western Europe but lived in much of Eurasia, as recent findings of new bones suggest.

Red hair could exist in several distant groups of Neanderthals, and could be inherited on a few occasions, not just once.
 
It appears red hair has been in Europe since before the Mesolithic and is an indigenous trait.

Europe is not Australia. It is not a real continent - there is no natural boundary between Europe and Asia, at least not in the steppe zone.

This kind of thinking about Europe as a "fortress" led people to believe that Neanderthals lived only in Europe.

But now we have Neanderthal burials as far as the Altai Mountains - actually they had been there before (!) migrating into Western Europe.

And it is possible that they lived also in China (even though no bones were found so far).
 
If LeBrok is right that this trait comes from Neanderthals, then admixture could happen anywhere between the Altai and Iberia.

I am under the impression that the gene giving Neanderthals red hair is not the same gene responsible for red hair in modern people.
 
Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups of people mentioned in the OP by Fire Haired14:

Motala I0012: I2c2 / U2e1
Motala I0013: I2a1b / U5a1
Motala I0016: I2a1 / U5a2
LBK I0025: - / T2b
Bell Beaker I0113: - / J1c5
LBA I099: R1a1a1b1a2 / H23

So in case of Y-DNA only I2a, I2c and R1a Z280.

While today the highest frequency of red hair is mostly in regions where majority of people have R1b.

It seems that red hair spread independently of Y-DNA.

Or maybe it was more common in the past (remember, that red hair is most recessive of all hair colors).



Well - both this can be true, and Maciamo can still be right.

Because how to otherwise explain high frequency of red hair nowadays in areas with R1b ???

No of these ancient samples was R1b - all of them were I2a, I2c and R1a.

One explanation could be that R1b came to areas inhabited by I2, replaced Y-DNA, but inherited red hair from females.

It is well-known that in history conquerors often killed men, but rarely women.

I answer yu and others here, so, you haven' t to take it for your account:
more than a biallelic locus exists, I think concerning red hair - I don't see the link with Neanderthal -
Y-haplo's CAN have links with other autosomes as long as a population doesn't mix with an other? not more, not less -
red hairs, today, aren't the Baltic richness, not at all (only Estonians seem having about the European mean or just above, about the 2% - Latvians and Lithuanians are under 0,6% of red + reddish hairs -
IT'S NOT RARITY OF A GENE VARIANT THAT PUSH IT TO DISAPPEAR, IN NO WAY IT'S RECESSIVE QUALITY/ HOW COULD PORTUGUESES HAVE BLOND HAIR (1,5%) OR SARDINIANS (1%)??? blond would have disappeared after all these centuries of scarcity - THE RECESSIVE QUALITY PERMITS THE REAPPARITION OF A VARIANT WE BELIEVE IT WAS DISAPPEARED, AT THE CONTRARY!!!
 
According Genetiker, Mesolithic Samara EHG (ancestor of Yamna) was blond haired, blue eyes with fair skins, I guess that make him the first individual with these features; he was probably R1b (or maybe R1a;).

There are also another link in Genetiker blog, about Kostenki:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2014/11/14/analyses-of-the-kostenki-14-genome/

"The results also show Kostenki 14 as having derived alleles associated with red hair, milk digestion, Mongoloid light skin, and blond hair and blue eyes. Some caution must be exercised in interpreting these results, because the Kostenki 14 genome is not nearly as high-coverage as some of the other prehistoric genomes. But the results also can’t simply be dismissed, because it’s not impossible that Kostenki 14 did have the derived alleles shown below."

That could explain why we find these features to the different group of peoples in Europe; and Kostenti has already the same three ancestors that the modern European (it was already a very big surprise).
 
Genetiker did not use the Hisiplex system, so those results are doubtful.

Allot of Genetikers hypothesis are doubtfull and sound more like fantasy. Genetiker even claims the R1b1 in Iberian Neolithic is descend of Gravitterian (Paleolithic Europeans! while we haven't even found mesolithic European R1b1). This is why I will stay cautious as long as not one of the Reich lab confirms this. I would have expected them to mention it if these H&G were really light haired.


"light skin" here seems to be relativicaly. Relative to Indian color range they might have been "light". I doubt that they were as light as the farmers let alone modern Europeans. And it must have been some H&G anyways.
 

This thread has been viewed 30846 times.

Back
Top