Research about R1b-U152: probably Roman (and italic) origin, not Gallic

All migrations comming from Unetice spread S28. Unetice culture is not really Celtic, the Terramare and Villanovian culture that spread Italic language also have their roots in Unetice culture.

The Unetrician was at Rhone and northern italy, it was called the Polada culture and was based around lake Garda, a lake that divides Lombardy from Veneto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

http://nuke.costumilombardi.it/Portals/0/kà cartina Polada 297.jpg

It was no celtic origin.

BTW, some scholars refer to celtic only as a language and some as a ethnic group, we have the same issue here. I wish we can decide between each other, which one it is.
 
The highest STR varience in L21 is generally in North East France/Western Germany. The guys doing language phylogenetics put the spilt between Irish and Welsh at around 900BC, spilt with Gaulish is probably earlier.

The "Lackan spearhead" which is one of oldest Iron spearheads recovered in Ireland has been dated to between 811 and 673 BC by radio-carbon dating some of the ash fragments in the spear socket.

Sorry, I didn't see this until now, but I am not sure if this is even possible, especially the latter. Brythonic (including Welsh) is closer with Gaulish than it is with Goidelic (Irish). The problem is that none of the modern Celtic languages are particularly representative here. Even Goidelic in Antiquity was much closer to Gaulish.

Having said that, the arrival of iron-working on the British Isles could have brought about the arrival of P-Celtic languages in Britain. Ireland in contrast was only peripherially influenced, and adopted iron-working and religious elements from Hallstatt/La-Tene, but not the language.
 
Sorry, I didn't see this until now, but I am not sure if this is even possible, especially the latter. Brythonic (including Welsh) is closer with Gaulish than it is with Goidelic (Irish). The problem is that none of the modern Celtic languages are particularly representative here. Even Goidelic in Antiquity was much closer to Gaulish.

Having said that, the arrival of iron-working on the British Isles could have brought about the arrival of P-Celtic languages in Britain. Ireland in contrast was only peripherially influenced, and adopted iron-working and religious elements from Hallstatt/La-Tene, but not the language.

Well Irish and Welsh are closer to each other then either are to Gaulish. Gaulish includes sound changes that aren't present in either. There is also the fact that Welsh and Irish contain features not found in Gaulish specifically on word order, initial mutations etc

At an ancient level all three languages would have been remarkably close. I would think it's fairly equivalent to the differences in Germany in modern era between "dialects" based off different sound changes in German. There's also the fact that Irish and Welsh probably formed a Sprachbund during the early Christian period (400-900AD) due to influence of Christian missionaries from the "British" (Brythonic church)

Old Irish -> Modern Irish is fairly equivalent in some ways to gap between "late Vulgar Latin" and say Italian. Of course if you look at the surviving corpus of "Archaic Irish" (Goidelic) on Ogham stones etc it's shows the most similiarity to Gaulish other then obvious sound changes that occur in Gaulish.

The comparision was between Old Irish and Old Welsh.

My own theory is that you had a wide dispersial of "Proto-Celtic" (Common-Celtic) over a wide area at an early stage. The rise of the Q->P sound shift probably goes hand in hand with the increasing importance of Hallstat/La Tène material culture. It probably arose in the core area and then radiated out. This can be compared with for example the High German consonant shift, where for example þ/ð→d also occurs in Dutch which otherwise doesn't take part in the other sound shifts. Old English of course didn't take part in the shift at all.

Interesting enough some of the surviving Gaulish corpus particulary from "South Gaul" doesn't show the Q -> P sound shift.

I should point out that though I'm not a 1st language speaker of Irish (Gaeilgeoir), I'm fairly fluent having done most of my primary school education through the medium of Irish (I'm listening to Radió na Gaeltachta atm)

At a basic level a sound shift doesn't necessarily pose a major issue with communiciation. As I'm from the west of Ireland I myself take part in a modern sound shift that differentiates my Irish from that of someone from say Munster (very south).

/n/ is realized as [r] (or is replaced by /r/) after consonants other than

This occurs in Connacht and Ulster Irish (2 of three dialects) as well as in Scottish Gáidhlig and Manx, now the words are still spelt with an n eg. Cnoc (hill) -- now this doesn't pose a communicative issue at all. If I'm talking to a speaker of munster Irish (or "school Irish" for that fact) they'd pronunce it as K-nuk whereas I'd say Kr-uk --

The shift is probably at least 800-1000 years old, of course having a unified orthography that didn't take notice of change probably helped as well (θ -> h shifted across all around same time but is still spelt as "th")
 
I would like to say that however that Brythonic and Gaulish are (or more properly, were) closer. "Old Brythonic" (the language spoken in Britain in Antiquity, which was the ancestor language of Breton, Cornish and Welsh) did have innovations in common with Gaulish which are not found in the Goidelic languages:

- The *Kw to *P shift is one feature, but since this also occured in Osco-Umbrian and Greek, you might argue that this occured in Brythonic after Gaulish and Brythonic split. However, there are other features, which is why I cannot get tired to say that the Q-Celtic/P-Celtic division is a simplification, and Gaulish and Brythonic have more in common than being P-Celtic. I agree though that this shift most probably goes hand-in-hand with the Hallstatt/La-Tene period.

- The shift from *nm- to *nw-. This is found in the word for 'name': it's "Anwana" in Gaulish, "Enw" in Welsh and "Anw" in Breton. In contrast, it's "Ainm" in Irish and Scots Gaelic, which is closer to what would have been the proto-Celtic form ("Anmana" - compare English/German "Name", Latin "Nomen").

- Brythonic and Gaulish have a shift from *ml and *mr to *bl and *br, respectively. It is true that the Goidelic languages also made such an innovation, but at a later point: Old Irish still had the original (Proto-Celtic) condition in respect for this sound law, whereas the shift only occured in Middle Irish (the actual ancestor language of modern Irish, Manx Gaelic and Scots Gaelic). Examples for this sound law would be:

Gaulish/Galatian "Brogos", Welsh/Breton "Bro", but Old Irish "Mruig".

Another example would be Welsh "Brad", Breton "Breud", Gaulish "Bratu", but Old Irish "Mrath". A non-Celtic cognate for comparison would be Greek "Martys" (witness, or 'martyr', which is where the English word derives from).

A third example would be Gaulish "Blaton", Breton "Bleud", Welsh "Blawd" but Old Irish "Mleith". For a non-Celtic cognate (to show that Old Irish was closer to the original) compare with German "Mehl" (flour).

So as you can see, there's a number of sound laws in Gaulish and Brythonic that are/were absent in Goidelic. An interesting aspect here is that ancient Goidelic (even Archaic Irish, as found in the Ogham inscriptions 4th through 6th century AD) was fairly close to Proto-Celtic, even closer than Gaulish.

You brought up a very good point about the sprachbund in the early Christian period. In my opinion, this is where most of the so-called "Insular Celtic" features (found in Goidelic and Brythonic, but absent in other branches of Celtic) come from, in particular, making away with the elaborate declension system that the 'Continental' Celtic languages have in common with other old Indo-European languages such as Latin, Greek and Sanskrit.
 
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The Unetrician was at Rhone and northern italy, it was called the Polada culture and was based around lake Garda, a lake that divides Lombardy from Veneto

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polada_culture

http://nuke.costumilombardi.it/Portals/0/kà cartina Polada 297.jpg

It was no celtic origin.

BTW, some scholars refer to celtic only as a language and some as a ethnic group, we have the same issue here. I wish we can decide between each other, which one it is.


The Polada culture of Northern Italy and the Rhone civilisation have all their origin in the Unetice culture.
The Polada culture is the origin of the Terramare culture.
Both Terramare and Rhone civilisation could be the Ligurian according to Bernard Sergent.

The Ligurian are something between the Italic and Celtic people but according to Sergent they share more affinities with the celtic one.
Both Celtic and Ligurian (via Polada and Rhone civilisation) languages have their origin in the Unetice culture.
file.php


k%C3%A0%20cartina%20Polada%20297.jpg
 
When Terramare people invaded the Peninsula from the North, they pushed the Apeninne people southward. That could explain the amount of haplogroup G2a in the Apeninne mountains.

apennine_culture.jpg


file.php


according to this map, the Terramares people came directly from the Tumulus culture like the Celts.
 
When Terramare people invaded the Peninsula from the North, they pushed the Apeninne people southward. That could explain the amount of haplogroup G2a in the Apeninne mountains.

apennine_culture.jpg


file.php


according to this map, the Terramares people came directly from the Tumulus culture like the Celts.


This does not make sense.

The scenario is that the majority of the PO valley was underwater no one lived there and so G2a people just migrated in the Alps and then south following the Apennine mountain range which runs the majority down the length of the italian peninsula.
 
This does not make sense.

The scenario is that the majority of the PO valley was underwater no one lived there and so G2a people just migrated in the Alps and then south following the Apennine mountain range which runs the majority down the length of the italian peninsula.

The Polada and Terramares people built constructions on pile-dwellings
Nowadays, G2a is very low in the PO Valley but strong in the Alpes and Apennines mountains. R1b U152 may have been brought by Terramares people from Central Europe (Unetice). This could explain theG2a hole in Northern Italy
 
The Polada and Terramares people built constructions on pile-dwellings
Nowadays, G2a is very low in the PO Valley but strong in the Alpes and Apennines mountains. R1b U152 may have been brought by Terramares people from Central Europe (Unetice). This could explain theG2a hole in Northern Italy

Unsure, but thinking logically, my theory would explain the G2a hole due to the water and later when it resided the ligurian people would have slowly occupied the po valley before etryuscans or veneti arrived.

It was said that the raeti stayed in the alps and only touched the adriatic sea where the alps meets it
 
Unsure, but thinking logically, my theory would explain the G2a hole due to the water and later when it resided the ligurian people would have slowly occupied the po valley before etryuscans or veneti arrived.

It was said that the raeti stayed in the alps and only touched the adriatic sea where the alps meets it

I think you are plain and simply misinterpretating that map...
 
I think you are plain and simply misinterpretating that map...

You mean that it was not water and swampy area in the civilta di Polada map?

It was noted that from turin to venice was underwater in ancient times.

Edit:It was piacenza to venice which was under water

At the end of the Messinian the ocean broke through the sill and the Mediterranean refilled. The Adriatic transgressed into all of northern Italy. In the subsequent Pliocene sedimentary outwash primarily from the Apennines filled the valley and the central Adriatic generally to a depth of 1,000 m (3,300 ft) to 2,000 m (6,600 ft) but from 2,000 m (6,600 ft) to 3,000 m (9,800 ft) off the current mouth of the Po, with pockets as deep as 6,000 m (20,000 ft). At the start of the Pleistocene the valley was full. Cycles of transgression and regression are detectable in the valley and the Adriatic as far as its centre and in the southern Adriatic.
From the Pleistocene alternation of maritime and alluvial sediments occur as far west as Piacenza. The exact sequences at various locations have been studied extensively. Apparently the sea advanced and receded over the valley in conformance to an equilibrium between sedimentation and glacial advance or recession at 100,000-year intervals and 100 m (330 ft) to 120 m (390 ft) fluctuation of sea level. An advance began after the Last Glacial Maximum around 20,000 years ago, which brought the Adriatic to a high point at about 5500 years ago.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Po_(river)
 
Hello All
I have been involved in genealogical research and DNA since FtDNA and others started up about ten years ago. I am very much just an interested observer, mainly trying to find my DNA origins.
I am an Englishman by birth, which brings up the first post by Etrusco Romano...re a Roman origin for u152. My family comes from Chelmsford in Essex, which was Caesaromagus in Roman times....obviously an important place to the Romans.
I have been very interested in the story put forward by Dr Linda Malcor, that King Arthurs Knights were Sarmatian.
I have recently gotten results from Geno 2.0, and my strongest result by MY measurement, is Romania... which is basically the same thing for a Sarmatian link.

But here is the real point. In the samples from Sardinia in the NatGeno project, one person, an I2a I believe, is PF4363.
I am also PF4363, but u152+.
I am wondering what the more educated people here ( than I ) might make of this.

Thanks for any ideas or imaginings. Thats half the fun.
Richard C
 
I have been very interested in the story put forward by Dr Linda Malcor, that King Arthurs Knights were Sarmatian.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that they were more likely Britons. If they existed. Who were some of King Arthur's knights, anyway? I explored that here.

But here is the real point. In the samples from Sardinia in the NatGeno project, one person, an I2a I believe, is PF4363.
I am also PF4363, but u152+.
I am wondering what the more educated people here ( than I ) might make of this.

It is meaningless. It is probably a mutation that occurs in multiple haplogroups, or Geno 2.0's testing of it is faulty (which has happened in a few cases in it).
 
Hello Sparkey
Thanks for your response. I have my own strong opinions as to what person may have led to the mythology of Arthur . It is accepted that SOMEONE was there, and these stories originated somewhere. I lived in Somerset , near the very hill where the events in the Mabinogion took place ( making saddles and shoes), and speak a little Welsh ( British), so I don't take on the Sarmatian idea lightly... it is very convincing. In fact, the Sarmatian Dragon Banner may be the origin of the Welsh flag.
That being said, I was not really looking to debate the Arthurian origination ideas, but whether or not anyone saw a link to a Romanian, Thracian origin for myself, at least in what I am suggesting.

The admins of the u152 project see PF 4363 as a stable SNP.
I was also supporting the original posters idea of a Roman origin for u152, although of course, it is much older than that.. perhaps Ligurian... but apparently it is not singularly a Celtic marker.
I also think that where u152 is found, it fairly well shows the limits of Roman expansion.

The Sardinian U152, pretty well shows it is not a Celtic marker, unless those people samples migrated to Sardinia after the La Ten e period.

Anyway, I think my questions cant be answered at the present time anyway.
Rich
 
Hello Sparkey
Thanks for your response. I have my own strong opinions as to what person may have led to the mythology of Arthur . It is accepted that SOMEONE was there, and these stories originated somewhere.

It is? You mean that they originated based on a real person? I'm in the "mythological Arthur" camp, although admittedly not strongly so.

That being said, I was not really looking to debate the Arthurian origination ideas, but whether or not anyone saw a link to a Romanian, Thracian origin for myself, at least in what I am suggesting.

Let's take the discussion elsewhere, it's interesting. We actually have an old thread called The Sarmatians in Britain!.

The admins of the u152 project see PF 4363 as a stable SNP.
I was also supporting the original posters idea of a Roman origin for u152, although of course, it is much older than that.. perhaps Ligurian... but apparently it is not singularly a Celtic marker.
I also think that where u152 is found, it fairly well shows the limits of Roman expansion.

The Sardinian U152, pretty well shows it is not a Celtic marker, unless those people samples migrated to Sardinia after the La Ten e period.

Anyway, I think my questions cant be answered at the present time anyway.
Rich

What is the geographic distribution of R1b>U152>PF4363? Most U152 is Western/Central European, and it tends to have high diversity around France IIRC. Sure, it's not a Celtic marker singularly, but in the context of the British Isles, it appears that it often is Celtic. Of course, the Romans, and to a significantly lesser degree, Germanic peoples, likely carried it as well. But regardless, you have an uphill battle if you're seeking to demonstrate any U152 as Thracian or Sarmatian. I have yet to see evidence of apparently Thracian R1b>L11 subclades, and I doubt Sarmatians had any, either. If you were something more curious like R1b L11-, then you'd have a case right out of the gates. But as is, you'll need a convincing geographic diversity analysis...
 
Re Uphill Battle
I agree. The main DNA for both peoples is different than u152... but as the DNA originated some thousands of years before the historical events mentioned, there must have been banishments, rapes, NPE's, migrations etc. I just don't see any DNA haplogroup being either this or that, particularly in historical times. Getting a DNA for the Legions would be like taking a small sampling of UN Emergency Force troops, and deciding on a particular DNA as being representative .

Haplogroups are one part of the picture, with STR and Autosomal being another.
I still think that an Englishman eating Fish and Chips, a German eating sauerkraut, and an Italian eating pasta for two thousand years, should result in some sort of DNA difference. But apparently, it doesn't.

I mentioned my Geno SNP showed Romania as strongest, my autosomal showing Tuscany as strongest, and now I have something different ( PF 4363) in a Sardinian... I think if we mix it up in a blender..... I wonder where the Sardinian originated, you see. Most I2A in Sardinia ... hmmm, well I2a is prevalent in Bosnia I think. You see where I am going.

Romania> Bosnia> Sardinia> Tuscany > Rome sort of thing. Perhaps one day we shall find out.
Later mate
Rich
 
Hi Britanicus,

I agree with you in your general view.
But you are wrong in believing, that you and this Sardinian guy share common heritage.
His haplogroup is I and yours is R, so it is a parallel mutation.
Hope you will find a second member of your clade.
I`m interested in testing PF4363, because I`m U152*
Do you know, if there is an other (cheaper) way than Geno 2.0.
 
Hi Britanicus,

I agree with you in your general view.
But you are wrong in believing, that you and this Sardinian guy share common heritage.
His haplogroup is I and yours is R, so it is a parallel mutation.
Hope you will find a second member of your clade.
I`m interested in testing PF4363, because I`m U152*
Do you know, if there is an other (cheaper) way than Geno 2.0.

Family Tree DNA offers a test for PF4363 at $29 but I suggest you discuss your particular STR values with the admin of the U152 subclades project before making a decision. Good luck!
http://www.familytreedna.com/public...p=R1b-U152&vgroup=R1b-U152&section=ycolorized
 
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Hi

I couldn't find PF4363 in the SNP advance orders, do you know if it is labelled something else on FTDNA?

Thanks

I was under the impression that the PF series of SNP's were only for the Geno 2.0 test.
 

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