Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae : close cousins ?

[how yes no 2]

Although I would agree that often the lines were blurred when we are trying to figure out Celto-Germanic, Germano-Celtic, etc., I tend to go with the Suebi (Marcommanic, Quadi, later Bavarians) as being Germans.
They may have been culturally influenced by Celts as they did have Kings on more or less a regular basis, but they appear fall on the German side as far as being overall more cultural, ethnically, and much more linguistically German.

Suebi is good candidate as in Slavic languages word "Svabe" is used as not formal word for Germans, while formal one is Nemci (derived from "not speaking")
However, I think word Germans is also initially related to haplogroup I carriers, as province in Persia in Iran carries name Kerman/Germania/Zermanya and looks to me as possible origin of haplogroup I...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=361413&postcount=25

Some hold that the Chatti, Cherusci, and the later amalgamated mega-tribe of the Franks may have had a signifigant admixture of Celts.

Franks origin from Sicambri, which is term probably related to earlier Cimbri
both terms Sicambri and Cimbri bare resemblance to what seems to be pattern for tribal name of haplogroup I people (Swedes, Suebi, Srbi (Serbs), Sarbans, Sardinians...)

other tribes whose tribal names might be derived from common haplogroup I tribal name pattern might be Sherdana (sea people), Scordisci, Siraces, Sarmatians, Cimbri, Cimmerians...

The word Germani appears to have been something that certain groups of Celts used to describe themselves, possible intending to convey that they were the real thing. It is interesting that the words Germani and Teuton, both now used exclusively to describe those whom we today recognize as German, both seem to originally have referred to Celts. Germani and Germania seem to have been used a by the Romans more as a geographic term to denote those who live in that area regardless of ethnicity and the Tueton name goes back to one of the tribes later defeated by Marius.

can you explain why do you think that words Teuton and Germani are originally related to Celts?

I think Teuton just meant "people" ... as similar word for it existed in proto-IE, and as e.g. in Illyrian word 'teuta' had that meaning ( http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm )...

word Germania was used by Romans indeed as geographic term, but also as cultural term... difference used to classify between Sarmatian and Germanic tribes for Roman historians was that Germanic people are those that live in households, while Sarmatian people are those who live as nomads... thus, for Roman historians any Celtic (or whatever origin) non-nomadic tribe on territory north of Roman empire would also be called Germanic...

However, as explained above, I do believe that word Germani origins from haplogroups I1 and I2b1, perhaps from all I haplogroups initially....

 

[Regulus]

Firstly, I am happy that there is discussion instead of the firestorm that I feared.

Attributing a Slavic origin to the Suevi is interesting, and I would like to hear more of it. At this point I think it is a big push to go with anything other than German. At the time that history becomes aware of the Suevi, we don’t have the Slavs anywhere near the Rhine/Danube angle yet. The Romans, in my opinion, would have been able to recognize that there was something appreciably different in these people from those they knew as Germans had the Suevi actually been Slavic. We must call to mind that they did have considerable contact with the Marcomanni and Quadi, which were Suevic tribes. (someone help – was the Marcomannic King spelled Maroduus?) Also, the Bavarians are believed by many to be a remnant of the Suevi left behind after many left to raid and later settle in Hispana. These were days before the Slavs began their big expansion.

I was aware of most accounts of Frankish origins. I meant to add that there was a good chance that they had a decent amount of Celts who may have settled among them and also became Franks.

My position on the words Germanni and Teuton is based on how the words are treated in classical sources. As far as differentiating them from Iranians, Germans and Celts were both described as “unmounted Scythians” by the Greeks early on.

Germanni was a term kind of thrown about by many peoples such as the Belgae. To them, they appeared to be saying that they were the real thing.(Like our Germane) The Romans knew of the area they called Germania, but did not seem to think that it was peopled only by those we know to be Germans until the time of Tacitus. There was a group of Celts that some historians refer to as the "Germanni group of Northern Celts."

Teutons, I agree, has a root word that is common among the IE peoples. My position is that, in this case, it is more likely that the Teutones of the great invasions defeated by Marius, were believed by many to have originated in that area and therefore were most likely the main cause of other groups from there being called "Teutonic". Recall that they are often referred to, along with the Cimbri, as “Germanni”. (I think it would be a good idea for someone to start a thread on that specific topic. It would probably get a lot of input)
The Romans mostly used terms such as Germanni in earlier days, along with Teutons to the point that it was established for that region by the time that those we know as Germans began their long and drawn out expansions. I am not knowledgeable on the German language, but it was my understanding that the Modern Germans use “Teutonic” to apply to speakers of the Low German languages (any help on that point?)


As far as Haplogroups go, I know very little and I want to learn about those. That is my main reason for being here. Please do not assume that I am anti-Slav or anything like that. I am probably more interested in the Slavic peoples than any other IE group. I personally believe that Slavs may very well represent the one subgroup that in the main has the least amount of non-IE ancestry.

 

[how yes no 2]

Firstly, I am happy that there is discussion instead of the firestorm that I feared.

Attributing a Slavic origin to the Suevi is interesting, and I would like to hear more of it. At this point I think it is a big push to go with anything other than German. At the time that history becomes aware of the Suevi, we don’t have the Slavs anywhere near the Rhine/Danube angle yet. The Romans, in my opinion, would have been able to recognize that there was something appreciably different in these people from those they knew as Germans had the Suevi actually been Slavic. We must call to mind that they did have considerable contact with the Marcomanni and Quadi, which were Suevic tribes. (someone help – was the Marcomannic King spelled Maroduus?) Also, the Bavarians are believed by many to be a remnant of the Suevi left behind after many left to raid and later settle in Hispana. These were days before the Slavs began their big expansion.

I did not attribute Slavic origin to Suebi... on contrary, I claimed that Suebi are key Germanic component among Germans....

What I tried to say is that Slavic people tend to use tribal name derived from name of Suebi for all Germans... which means not that Suebi were Slavic, but
that people from whom Slavic people originate did see it as German = Suebi

My position on the words Germanni and Teuton is based on how the words are treated in classical sources. As far as differentiating them from Iranians, Germans and Celts were both described as “unmounted Scythians” by the Greeks early on.

Perhaps they were both Scythian people (though at the moment it seems that Scythians at least in Asia were dominantly R1a carriers)...

But I fail to see how would that in any way imply that tribal names Germani and Teutons do in any way correspond to Celtic people rather than to Germanic tribes...

Germanni was a term kind of thrown about by many peoples such as the Belgae. To them, they appeared to be saying that they were the real thing.(Like our Germane) The Romans knew of the area they called Germania, but did not seem to think that it was peopled only by those we know to be Germans until the time of Tacitus. There was a group of Celts that some historians refer to as the "Germanni group of Northern Celts."

that group were obviously just Celts who lived in Germania and thus Germanni group of northern Celts... that is where all R1b in Germany comes from... But the name Germania comes from real Germans and those are I think tribes like Suebi, Cimbri, Swedes..

Teutons, I agree, has a root word that is common among the IE peoples. My position is that, in this case, it is more likely that the Teutones of the great invasions defeated by Marius, were believed by many to have originated in that area and therefore were most likely the main cause of other groups from there being called "Teutonic". Recall that they are often referred to, along with the Cimbri, as “Germanni”. (I think it would be a good idea for someone to start a thread on that specific topic. It would probably get a lot of input)

Teutons, Cimbri, Goths, Suebi, Swedes... are tribal groups... Germanic is name on higher level that is about their common origin... what is so hard to understand there?

As far as Haplogroups go, I know very little and I want to learn about those. That is my main reason for being here. Please do not assume that I am anti-Slav or anything like that. I am probably more interested in the Slavic peoples than any other IE group. I personally believe that Slavs may very well represent the one subgroup that in the main has the least amount of non-IE ancestry.

I do not think that you are anti-Slavic...
I never claimed Suebi has anything to do with Slavic people....
What I claim is that there is common origin of haplogroups I1, I2b1, I2a1 and I2a2 that goes tens thousands years in past, and that nations who dominantly origin from that people did keep tribal names that are derived from same word...

that split between haplogroups probably happened much before Germanic/Slavic/Celtic cultures evolved from proto-IE people... so when I speak of common origin of tribal names Serbs (I2a2), Suebi (I1), Swedes (I1), Sardinians (I2a1), I do not talk of Germanic or Slavic cultures, as that probably did not exist in times when haplogroups did split...

however, tribal name Germani might have existed, as province in Persia in Iran that shows traces that (at least on a map) look as possible origin of haplogroup I, has name Kerman/Germania/Zermanya...

 

[Regulus]

Ok, I apologize for misunderstanding your point about Slavs using the word for Suevi to apply to Germans in general. My fault, then.

I am perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me on the origins and early meanings of the words Germanni and Teuton. There has been considerable disagreement on this topic by eminent published historians, so we can’t be surprised that you and I have taken up different sides in this case. I would have to hold, though, that the name Germania predates any appreciable knowledge of classical people about those we know to distinctly have been Germans. The Belgae, who described themselves as Germans,(Cesear -Gallic War) are known to us to have been Celts. I will allow that they could have meant either that they were originally from Germania or that they were the "real thing". Maybe more discussion and input from you and others will tilt me over to your side.

My original reply was mainly to clarify my opinion that Suevi would fall within the German group as opposed to Celts. It looks like you and I were both in agreement on that point.


I can’t comment at all on the Haplogroups. I came across this forum while looking for answers on R1b, R1a, and the I groups.

 

[how yes no 2]

I would have to hold, though, that the name Germania predates any appreciable knowledge of classical people about those we know to distinctly have been Germans. The Belgae, who described themselves as Germans,(Cesear -Gallic War) are known to us to have been Celts. I will allow that they could have meant either that they were originally from Germania or that they were the "real thing". Maybe more discussion and input from you and others will tilt me over to your side.

Belgae were Germans in sense of living in area of Germania. By origins they probably were Celts. However, area of Germania has likely originally got its name from people who were Germanic. I think that most of Celtic people in Germania probably moved to north only after being pushed by spread of Roman Empire...
I do believe that this large influence of Celtic tribes is represented in gene pool of Germany with R1b haplogroup, while original Germans are represented with I1 and I2b1 haplogroups...

Btw. in case you wondered, I am not Dutch... I just currently live in Netherlands...

I can’t comment at all on the Haplogroups. I came across this forum while looking for answers on R1b, R1a, and the I groups.

A very small part of genes is transfered directly from father to son. It is possible to isolate and analyse that part. That is how it is established that all so far tested humans have shared ancestry. Mutations (random deviation from original value) on that part of genes happens as anywhere else in genetic code. However, when there is a mutation on this particular part of gene, than altered DNA sequence is transfered from father to son as well.

Thus, if we know that part of gene of every man who ever lived, we could easily sort them in a father-son hierarchy. Even with limited number of samples it is possible to reconstruct to some extent this tree. Branches in this tree are given names according to letters in alphabet (A, B, C, D,E,..I, ...R......), their subbranches got extra digit, subbranches of subbranches got letters again... This stream of letters and digits that represent particular branch in this tree we call Y-DNA haplogroup.


Now, people in western Europe are predominantly R1b, people in east Europe are predominantly R1a. People in Scandinavia in addition to R1a and R1b whose zones of influence are overlapping there have dominant I1 haplogroup, Germans have very strong R1b, I1 and I2b, while Slavic people of Balkans have dominant I2a2, and people in Sardina have dominant I2a1. Haplogroup G is for instance very strong in Caucasus and spread in few percentages accross Europe. Haplogroup E-V13 is strong in south Balkan and spread accross most of Europe.

Assumption of many people, and I belong there, is that R1b is very related to spread of Celtic people, while I1 and I2b1 are very related to spread of Germanic people...

e.g. according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

Dutch 70.4% R1b 3.7% R1a 26.7% I 8% E-V13
Germans 47.9% R1b 8.1% R1a 37.5% I 6.2% E-V13
French 52.2%R1b 0% R1a 17.4% I 8% E-V13
Spanish 68% R1b 2% R1a 10% E-V13
...

alternatively, you can look at data per countries at Eupedia site as well
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

I give preference to wikipedia table as it lists the scientific paper that is source of data, which is not the case on Eupedia site...


keep in mind that the data from different sources vary as scientific researches are typically done on relatively small number of samples (e.g. 100 to 150)

 

[Regulus]

Thanks for the lesson on Haplogroups. I have only been on the forum for a short while but I can say with certainty that I have gleaned more in that time than I knew prior to joining.

I had been looking around after running into a whole lot of sites that were championing the cause of any and all R1b coming from the original inhabitants of Europe. I am of Italian and Irish ancestry and it just did not make sense to me that, if this were true, that so much of the Celtic languages became spoken is Ireland, etc. without a significant IE component. Invaders who constitute a small minority rarely succeed in getting another population to take on their tongue lock, stock, and barrel. It is usually the opposite in that case. In the example of Gaelic, it appears that only some grammatical rules survived from those who lived there prior to IE people showing up. After coming across this forum, particularly an article from Maciamo where the older branches of R1b and the branches that came from it were described and mapped out, I felt that this was the place to be.
It all started to make sense from that point.

 

[Reinaert]

Hmm.. AFAIK the name German is in etymology derived from Ger-Man, what means a man with a spear.
In the same way the name Gerhard or Gerard means "strong with a spear".

In Dutch "geer" is an old word for a pike formed piece in a cloth.

 

[how yes no 2]

Hmm.. AFAIK the name German is in etymology derived from Ger-Man, what means a man with a spear.
In the same way the name Gerhard or Gerard means "strong with a spear".
In Dutch "geer" is an old word for a pike formed piece in a cloth.

this makes lot of sense in fact...

I think that it is very possible that tens of thousands years ago proto-tribe made of haplogroup I carriers was initially distinguished from other tribes by the skilled usage of spears...

in Latin, spear is word "Sibyna"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyna

the word "Sibyna" meaning spear is also one of only few preserved illyrian words... already, some time ago while reading preserved illyrian words I was wondering could word "Sibyna" be related to origin of Serb tribal name...

this is direct link between linguistic origin of words Germanic and of words that I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern - Swedes (I1), Suebi (I1), Srbi (Serbs - I2a2), Sarbans (I?), Sardinians(I2a1) implying with the pattern grouping that all those tribal names are derived from the same source...

similarly, word "Sarissa"/ "Sarisa" is about using long spears in battles e.g. by Macedonian phalanx (earlier dory spear was somewhat shorther)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa

in fact, Dory meaning spear, is perhaps origin of tribal name for Greek Dorians (e.g. later Spartans and ancient Macedonians)...
about origin of Dorian name:

A second popular derivation was given by the French linguist, Émile Boisacq, from the same root, but from Greek δόρυ (doru) 'spear-shaft' (which was made of wood); i.e., "the people of the spear" or "spearmen", emphasizing the warrior ferocity of the Dorians.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

in fact, let's check whether areas settled by Dorians are hotspots of haplogroup I in Greece...

looking at data collected by Dienekes from 3 scientific papers
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

haplogroup I hotspots are:
Agrinion 23.8% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinion)
Serrai 36% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrai)
Thessaloniki 20% ancient Macedonia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki)
Rethymnon 22.7% (Crete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rethymnon)
Mitylene 18,5% (island near Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitylene)
Lerna/Franchthi 21,2% (east Peloponese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myloi,_Argolis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchthi)

and Dorians lived in: Crete, southeast Peloponese, area around Agrinion...

http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/thucydides_lecture/sixty_f.htm

Herodotus also clearly put ancient Macedonians among Dorians...

Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.

www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt

only Mitylene on Lesbos island looks as outlier.. all other hotspots of haplogroup I seems to clearly match Dorian settlements.. Lesbos settlement might be I haplogroup not related to Dorians...

I would also add that Sarmatians (whom I consider to be likely dominantly of I2a2 haplogroup) are well known for their spears (while Scythians are well known for their arrows)

e.g. see page 119 verse 150 in book of Seneca
http://books.google.com/books?id=tp...d=0CDoQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=sarmatian&f=false

that mentions Sarmatians by spear, Scythians by arrows...

 

[Reinaert]

Well.. A spear can be used in different ways.
And as a consequence different tactics that go with it.

But the main difference with a sword and shield is, the spear is easier to make.

Different methods..

The use of spears pointing towards cavalry is well known.
The back end of the spear is also pointed so it can easily be stuck in the soil.

The use of a spear as a close combat weapon. Hands in the middle of the spear. Use like a rifle with bajonet.

Use as a swinging weapon. The warrior swings the spear round in circles.

Of course spears are also accompanied by swordsmen and archers.

The throwing of a heavy spear is rather stupid.
The enemy can throw the thing back at you.

The Romans used the pilum only to penetrate and immobilize the shields of their enemies.
The iron point would bend when thrown, so becoming rather useless for the enemy to throw back.

 

[Regulus]

Good mention of the Pilum - It should be noted, though, that the bending or breaking of the shaft was a design that is attributed to Marius's modification. Prior to that, Pilum were used to immobilize or kill. Remember that, at the time when they were changing tactics from spearmen in longer formations to manipular tactics with heavy and light javelins, they were creating a force better able to deal with onrushing Celts, a number of whom would not have shields. On many occasions the Romans inflicted tremendous casualties on naked Gaesatae, who would have at most a shield and sword. In the days before Javelin use, the Roman army resembled something closer to that of Hoplites. In its really early days, it was probably indistinguishable from a Hoplite army.
The bending or breaking design (basically a shear pin) was brought about during the days of the middle of the second century BCE (Cimbri and Teutones).

 

[how yes no 2]

this makes lot of sense in fact...

I think that it is very possible that tens of thousands years ago proto-tribe made of haplogroup I carriers was initially distinguished from other tribes by the skilled usage of spears...

in Latin, spear is word "Sibyna"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyna

the word "Sibyna" meaning spear is also one of only few preserved illyrian words... already, some time ago while reading preserved illyrian words I was wondering could word "Sibyna" be related to origin of Serb tribal name...

this is direct link between linguistic origin of words Germanic and of words that I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern - Swedes (I1), Suebi (I1), Srbi (Serbs - I2a2), Sarbans (I?), Sardinians(I2a1) implying with the pattern grouping that all those tribal names are derived from the same source...

similarly, word "Sarissa"/ "Sarisa" is about using long spears in battles e.g. by Macedonian phalanx (earlier dory spear was somewhat shorther)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa...

actually, the name from which tribal names of haplogroup I derive might have had religious connotation....

a possible match among Slavic deities would be this goddess:

Živa, also Šiva, Siva, Siwa, Żiwia, Sieba or Razivia, was the Slavic goddess of love and fertility. She was worshipped throughout what is now Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Germany (and especially the Elbe (Labe) river valley), before Christianity expanded into the area. Her name means "living, being, existing." Sieba's consort was Siebog, her male equivalent.

both tribal name of Suebi and Serbs might be derived from name of Sieba goddess of love, marriage, fertility...

phenomena of deriving tribal/nation name from name of goddess we have in the case of Ireland, so it was not unusual to do so...

In Irish mythology, Ériu (Irish pronunciation: [ˈeːrʲu]; modern Irish Éire), daughter of Ernmas of the Tuatha Dé Danann, was the eponymous matron goddess of Ireland. Her husband was Mac Gréine (‘Son of the Sun’).[1]
The English name for Ireland comes from the name Ériu and the Germanic (Old Norse or Old English) word land.
The fact that Ériu is represented as goddess of Ireland, she is often interpreted as a modern day personification of Ireland, although since the name "Ériu" is the older Irish form of the word Ireland, her modern name is often modified to "Éire" or "Erin" to suit a modern form.
The University of Wales' reconstructed Proto-Celtic lexicon gives *Φīwerjon- (nominative singular Φīwerjō) as the Proto-Celtic etymology of this name.[4] This Celtic form implies Proto-Indo-European *piHwerjon-, likely related to the adjectival stem *piHwer- "fat" (cf. Sanskrit pīvan, f. pīvarī and by-form pīvara, "fat, full, abounding") hence meaning "fat land" or "land of abundance", applied at an early date to the island of Ireland. The Proto-Celtic form became *īweriū [5] in Q-Celtic (Proto-Goidelic). ...

lol, fat, full, abounding...
obviously, it is about fertility as well...
so, it was likely also godess of love, marriage and fertility...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ériu

 

[how yes no 2]

The word Germani appears to have been something that certain groups of Celts used to describe themselves, possible intending to convey that they were the real thing. It is interesting that the words Germani and Teuton, both now used exclusively to describe those whom we today recognize as German, both seem to originally have referred to Celts. Germani and Germania seem to have been used a by the Romans more as a geographic term to denote those who live in that area regardless of ethnicity and the Tueton name goes back to one of the tribes later defeated by Marius.

I would like to hear from anyone who may be aware of a common word or name that Germanic types may have used to describe themselves. I have to think that a relatively cohesive group like they were would have had something that they used.


I hope that this post does not ignite a firestorm.

Now the parts beyond the Rhenus, immediately after the country of the Celti, slope towards the east and are occupied by the Germans, who, though they vary slightly from the Celtic stock in that they are wilder, taller, and have yellower hair, are in all other respects similar, for in build, habits, and modes of life they are such as I have said9 the Celti are. And I also think that it was for this reason that the Romans assigned to them the name “Germani,” as though they wished to indicate thereby that they were “genuine” Galatae, for in the language of the Romans “germani” means “genuine.”10 [3]

Strabo
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=7:chapter=1

Ok, so Strabo thinks that Germans is not self-identity tribal name, but name used by Romans to pinpoint real, genuine, Celts and not assimilated ones...well, we see it today as well...Germans do not call themselves Germans...they call themselves Deutch

 

[Regulus]

I first came across this topic a number of years ago while reading The Conquest of Gaul where the Belgae are described as referring to themselves as Germans. I can't remember if Caesar was able to figure out why. I'll have to read it again.
Thank you for that post, I need to get a copy of Strabo myself.

 

[Reinaert]

Be aware that names can be tricky to depend on.

As I said before "german" is a man with a spear. Part of the original Celtic tribes could have used that tactics in areas where there was a lot of wood, and less iron. I don't have to explain how effective a short spear can be. The use is comparable with a rifle with fixed bayonet.

So there are the " germans" with a spear, which could also be Celts.
And there are "saxons" who have a short sword. They might have the same tactics as a standard Roman soldier.
Then we would also have other groups that use a bow.

In my area, the name Taxandria can both mean "Right side of the river", but also the land where the Taxus grows. A tree that has very good wood to produce a strong bow.

A modern example of incorrect name giving is the name for my region.
I am from Brabant, the southern part of The Netherlands.
The country is often referred to as "Holland".
The Dutch as a people live in "The Netherlands", and Holland is just a part of it. It would be the same as if we would call people from the USA " New Yorkers" or "Yankees".

I know that a lot of citizens of the USA hate to be called a Yankee. :innocent:

BTW Deutschland means "land of the people you can understand" and Dutch is the English version of that meaning. The Netherlands and Germany, and also France once were part of the same empire.

 

[Pater]

the Romans conquest of Gaul was more like the final part of the unification process of the Italo-Celtic tribes.

Seriously you are kidding me right? It meant the slaughter of thousands of Kelts. The Lions in amphitheater feasted on Celtic meats.

Ancient Romans were ofcourse Greco-Roman, similar culture, religion, very close languages. And probably appearance. Which would mean the Indo-European Balkan/Greek type.

Sure after the collapse of the original Roman empire the country was invaded by the Celts we all know that. But don't put them so close as you like. Don't let Italian historians read these strange theories of yours.

 

[Pater]

The Celts' last stand; Remains of 'warriors killed by Romans' are found in a mass grave.(News)

Publication Daily Mail (London)
Byline: Luke Salkeld
THEY died, gruesomely, at the hands of the Roman army, launched into eternity by the swift removal of their heads from their bodies.
For 2,000 years, the bones of the young men lay undisturbed and forgotten beneath the soil of a Dorset hillside.
But now the land has given up its secrets after work began on building an [pounds sterling]87million relief road.
So far, 45 skulls have been found in a mass grave measuring 20ft in diameter. Another part of the pit contains torsos and leg bones.
The decapitated skeletons, found on Ridgeway Hill near Weymouth, are believed by archaeologists to date from the Iron Age. …

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-201662410.html

 

[Pater]

http://www.clannada.org/time_390bce.php

The Senonian Tribe of Celts was by now firmly established in the Po Valley. The Clusians (Etruscans) were fearful of the Celtic expansion, and asked Rome for help. Rome had no real ties to Clusium, but had been hearing about the Celts, and was also concerned about their expansion. Therefore, the Romans sent three envoys from the Fabii family to mediate between the Clusians and the Celts.
According to one source (Gerhard Herm), the Celts met with the Roman envoys and agreed to not wage war in exchange for land. The Clusians refused, and the Celts began fighting. The Clusians then got assistance from one of the Roman envoys, Quintis Fabius, who killed a Celtic chief. Another source (Peter Beresford Ellis) states that the Romans were not there to mediate at all, but actually to help the Clusians fight the Celts, and that it was Ambustus Fabius who killed the Celtic chief.

 

[Pater]

Diodorus notes that: Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are clean-shaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours.

[The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rhythmically against their shields.
Ordinary Celtic soldiers, often naked except for golden neck torcs, worked themselves into a fury before entering into battle and then fought wildly like beasts. After battle a victorious Celt would ride off with the heads of slain enemies dangling from the neck of his horse. Later, the heads would be nailed to the doors of their homes or embalmed with cedar oil in order to be publicly displayed. Typically, this preservation treatment of heads was reserved for distinguished, high-ranking enemies. Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:
In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil, keeping them carefully in wooden boxes. - Diodorus Siculus, History.

 

[Reinaert]

Haha.. Typical Roman propaganda. By telling the Celts were enormous enemies, they pumped up their own self esteem.
The Romans were interested only in one thing: Loot.
Especially the gold the Celts had.

 

[Chronicle]

I just have one question
The Romans are probably the second biggest ethnic group in France after the Gauls. The Celts are described as tall, pale, fair haired, and bigger than the Romans, who are smaller, dark skinned haired and eyed. If the Romans were so closely related to the Celts, then why is there such a substantial amount of Mediterranean blood in France? That blood being widely regarded as Roman. Shouldn't France be twice as Celtic genetically instead of Gallo-Roman?