Rus in Russia, who were they?

[nordicwarrior]

Faux is haplogroup R and gears much of his writing towards his own haplogroup. Many if not most of us are guilty of this same transgression, nevertheless I would need another source Oriental.

 

[zanipolo]

Faux is haplogroup R and gears much of his writing towards his own haplogroup. Many if not most of us are guilty of this same transgression, nevertheless I would need another source Oriental.

yours does not open.....did you mean this
http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

in regards to heruli.........
Heruli were the forefathers of modern Samogitians. In prehistoric times they were called "Hirri" or "Giriai", which means "Forest Dwellers"
The Herulian language is very similar to the Samogitian dialect; it also resembles the Courish dialect.

1. HERULIAN:TABES MUS,KAS TUES EKSZAN
2. Samogitian:Teivs mus, kors tu es's auksta
3. Lithuanian: Teve musu, kurs tu esi aukstai
4. English: Father our who art high

Are the ancient Heruli first a baltic people who created the runes and later became germanic via language or .....??

 

[GloomyGonzales]

Not according to this wiki page:

By 9th century we might have mixture of left over East Germanics mixed with Slavs after Slavic expansion. There are also strong culturally Viking centers like Wolin. Well, more like Viking way of life, because the deities are of Slavic kind, like Swiatowit.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin

There is also a possibility that Viking influence came later with conquest of Baltic shores between 700 to 1000 AD. With time their settlements were taken over by Pomeranian Slavs adopting sea fairing culture. Or Vikings conquering Pomeranian Slavs and ruling them as elites only.

There's not any special Viking culture there's culture of Baltic region. The problem is that some guys trying to userp it and position it as Scandinavian and on this basis build stupid theories about Vikings living in Central and Eastern Europe. For a while genetic testing shows us completely different story from what we have heard for many years it shows that Baltic region was controlled by guys from South Baltic and Scandinavian folks did not settle in Central and Eastern Europe.

 

[nordicwarrior]

Gloomy, what did you think about Yetos' videos? You seem like you're back peddling about your claims that the Vikings never went to Russia. I have no Russian heritage (that I know of), I'm just following what the archelogists have found, what the genetics say, and what the oral histories have indicated. I admitted my goof on assuming the hg I in N. Africa is from the Vandals (although there's still a very good chance it is), you should own up to your false claims that the Scandinavian Vikings never made it to Russia.

Here's some numbers from the Viking Project on FamilytreeDNA:
Of the roughly 330 I1 families on the site--23 identified as being located in either Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, or Lithuania (roughly 7%)

Interestingly, the NC1 lines had no Russian hits, but 2 from Latvia. (Much smaller sample than I1)

I didn't tally the R1a lines, but they seemed comparable to I1 in the Russian percentages. (A light smattering.)

**EDIT**
I just did a count on R1a (to be fair)... on the same Viking Project R1a had 94 family names and nine were from either the Russian Federation, Poland, or Lithuania for a 9.57% total. (None were from Belarus or the Ukraine.)

Of the sizable R1b haplogroup listed on the Viking Project, none had a tie to the Eastern countries.

 

[Theodorik]

Polish nobles came from Sarmatians? Some came from Scandinavia.
Of course, it is well documented that the Russian nobility were Swedish Vikings. In the case of Poland, the evidence is weaker. (link removed)
"Since Vikings were responsible for founding the state of the Rus, some people have wondered if a they could have also been the founders of a Polish state.
There are some arguments for that theory:1. In one early written documents, Mieszko I is called "Dagome", which could be a Norman name, derived from Dagon.2. Some Viking weapons have been found in Poland.3 There were Viking settlements in Pomerania, the most important of which was Jomsborg.4 Several Polish noblemen had runes on their coats of arms."

 

[LeBrok]

Polish nobles came from Sarmatians? Some came from Scandinavia.
Of course, it is well documented that the Russian nobility were Swedish Vikings. In the case of Poland, the evidence is weaker. (link removed)
"Since Vikings were responsible for founding the state of the Rus, some people have wondered if a they could have also been the founders of a Polish state.
There are some arguments for that theory:1. In one early written documents, Mieszko I is called "Dagome", which could be a Norman name, derived from Dagon.2. Some Viking weapons have been found in Poland.3 There were Viking settlements in Pomerania, the most important of which was Jomsborg.4 Several Polish noblemen had runes on their coats of arms."

It is said that Mieszko is from Piast dynasty of tribe Polanie, which is very Slavic. There is no historic records, that I'm aware of, indicating any connection to Vikings and Normans.
Check post # 18, you will find it interesting. Looks like there was Viking presence deep into Vistula river in Northern Poland till 12th century.

 

[arvistro]

There is a DNA project about Rurikids and Gediminids which proves both of them N1C1. In case of Rurik they claim N1C1 came from Sweden (where did it get to Sweden is a different story). In case of Gediminids origin of N1C1 is not clear, could be of local Baltic origin.

 

[Aberdeen]

It is said that Mieszko is from Piast dynasty of tribe Polanie, which is very Slavic. There is no historic records, that I'm aware of, indicating any connection to Vikings and Normans.
Check post # 18, you will find it interesting. Looks like there was Viking presence deep into Vistula river in Northern Poland till 12th century.

I just noticed this comment while reading arvisto's comment. The Normans were Vikings who settled in northwestern France. I doubt if a name given to someone in Poland was Norman, but many of the Normans did have Viking names, although they mixed with the population of northwestern France, so if a name is found in both Normandy and Poland, it would no doubt be a Viking name.

 

[FrankN]

I just noticed this comment while reading arvisto's comment. The Normans were Vikings who settled in northwestern France. I doubt if a name given to someone in Poland was Norman, but many of the Normans did have Viking names, although they mixed with the population of northwestern France, so if a name is found in both Normandy and Poland, it would no doubt be a Viking name.

In general, North Sea and Baltic Sea Normans/ Vikings/ Varangians should have different geographic origins. The former are rather Danish / Norwegian, the latter rather from Central Sweden, and especially from Gotland. There might occasionally have been people from Skane going in both directions, but overall, the chance of finding shared names in Normandy and in Poland is rather low. Note also that Pomerania and the Baltics were under Swedish rule in the 17th/ 18th century, probably providing for more genetic influx than the Varangians.

 

[Aberdeen]

In general, North Sea and Baltic Sea Normans/ Vikings/ Varangians should have different geographic origins. The former are rather Danish / Norwegian, the latter rather from Central Sweden, and especially from Gotland. There might occasionally have been people from Skane going in both directions, but overall, the chance of finding shared names in Normandy and in Poland is rather low. Note also that Pomerania and the Baltics were under Swedish rule in the 17th/ 18th century, probably providing for more genetic influx than the Varangians.

There was never any such thing as Baltic Sea Normans - the Normans were Vikings who settled in France and mixed with the local French population, to the point of adopting the French language - that's why Norman French was spoken by the upper class in England after the Norman conquest. My point was simply that it's a mistake to think there's no connection between the Normans and the Vikings. And while you are correct in stating that the Baltic Sea Vikings were mostly from Sweden and the North Sea Vikings were mostly from Norway and Denmark, so that names would generally be different in the two groups, Norse and Danish would have been more similar to Swedish back then than they are now, so I would think there would have been a greater likelihood of some of the same names being found in both groups.

 

[FrankN]

And while you are correct in stating that the Baltic Sea Vikings were mostly from Sweden and the North Sea Vikings were mostly from Norway and Denmark, so that names would generally be different in the two groups, Norse and Danish would have been more similar to Swedish back then than they are now, so I would think there would have been a greater likelihood of some of the same names being found in both groups.

Unfortunately, most would have been called something like Peter Jensen or Matt Johanson, with their sons being called Petersen or Mattson. Matt Johannson, if he arrived on the middle Vistula and married a Polish woman there, might however also have found his son being called Matusek Not really helpful if you try to establish a genealogy..

P.S: Poor example, these are all Christian names. Replace it by Knut Helgesen and Harald Svensson. This means there might be a slight chance of finding a polish-sounding last name that is not related to a Christian saint or martyr - this could be a Varangian offspring.

 

[Sile]

It is said that Mieszko is from Piast dynasty of tribe Polanie, which is very Slavic. There is no historic records, that I'm aware of, indicating any connection to Vikings and Normans.
Check post # 18, you will find it interesting. Looks like there was Viking presence deep into Vistula river in Northern Poland till 12th century.

the polanie tribe origins are east of the city of modern Kiev

 

[Sile]

In general, North Sea and Baltic Sea Normans/ Vikings/ Varangians should have different geographic origins. The former are rather Danish / Norwegian, the latter rather from Central Sweden, and especially from Gotland. There might occasionally have been people from Skane going in both directions, but overall, the chance of finding shared names in Normandy and in Poland is rather low. Note also that Pomerania and the Baltics were under Swedish rule in the 17th/ 18th century, probably providing for more genetic influx than the Varangians.

The Gutes and Jutes have proven to be genetically the same people

The Geats from sweden are different from the Gutes of gotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats

The Gutes of gotlander are different from the goths of Gdansk/vistula area

The Goths are related to the gepids of central vistula area

The goths and gepids are different from the getae of moldovia/romania

 

[mihaitzateo]

Rurik paternal line,some kind of N1C1 was identified as coming from Sweden,somewhere between Stockholm and Upsala.
Rus in the Fino-Ugric people language,that were living together with Slavs comes from Rootsi which means Swedes.
Russians are still calling their country Rossia.
Is quite hard to trace autosomal admixture and paternal lines from Swedish vikings that founded Russia,since these I think are quite common with Baltic and Fino-Ugric people.
After the look Russians rather leans towards Ugric people,than to Slavic people.

 

[mihaitzateo]

The Gutes and Jutes have proven to be genetically the same people

The Geats from sweden are different from the Gutes of gotland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geats

The Gutes of gotlander are different from the goths of Gdansk/vistula area

The Goths are related to the gepids of central vistula area

The goths and gepids are different from the getae of moldovia/romania

The goths were also on the land of Romania,but the left very few genetics here.
I think Getae are not different from Goths - they were just allied to Thraco-Dacians .
But I do not know how many of them were on the land of Romania,maybe only a small ruling elite.

 

[LeBrok]

the polanie tribe origins are east of the city of modern Kiev

I think you refer to the second tribe Polanie, not the one who was in Poland. There is no known connections between two of them. Explanation might be as simple as the name being very popular. There were also tribes: Polochans, Polabians, Polesians; root Pole seemed to be very popular, that's all. Having said that there is a possibility of common origin going way back. They both could have started from same place, but not necessarily location of East of Kiev is the original one. If one could move, so could the other.

 

[LeBrok]

There was never any such thing as Baltic Sea Normans - the Normans were Vikings who settled in France and mixed with the local French population, to the point of adopting the French language - that's why Norman French was spoken by the upper class in England after the Norman conquest. My point was simply that it's a mistake to think there's no connection between the Normans and the Vikings. And while you are correct in stating that the Baltic Sea Vikings were mostly from Sweden and the North Sea Vikings were mostly from Norway and Denmark, so that names would generally be different in the two groups, Norse and Danish would have been more similar to Swedish back then than they are now, so I would think there would have been a greater likelihood of some of the same names being found in both groups.

As FrankN mentioned, there is no obvious similarities in toponyms or last names between Normandy and Pomerania. I think the presence of Viking wasn't too strong around whole area. Probably limited to few trading posts and heavily mixed with local Slavs.

 

[FrankN]

I think you refer to the second tribe Polanie, not the one who was in Poland. There is no known connections between two of them. Explanation might be as simple as the name being very popular. There were also tribes: Polochans, Polabians, Polesians; root Pole seemed to be very popular, that's all.

My understanding was that it is geographic terminology. "Po-" means "at", so you have Po-morje (Pomerania)= "at the sea", Po-labia = "at the Labe/Elbe", Po-dolia = "in the valleys (of the Carpathians)", Po-lesia = "in the forests", etc. "Po-lane" means "at the fields/ plains", similar to Italian "Campania" and French "Champagne". Angeln / Anglia, btw, is the corresponding Germanic example. Since Romanic-speaking countries know Campania / Champagne twice, more than one "Po-lane" in the Slavic-speaking area is anything but a surprise.

 

[LeBrok]

My understanding was that it is geographic terminology. "Po-" means "at", so you have Po-morje (Pomerania)= "at the sea", Po-labia = "at the Labe/Elbe", Po-dolia = "in the valleys (of the Carpathians)", Po-lesia = "in the forests", etc. "Po-lane" means "at the fields/ plains", similar to Italian "Campania" and French "Champagne". Angeln / Anglia, btw, is the corresponding Germanic example. Since Romanic-speaking countries know Campania / Champagne twice, more than one "Po-lane" in the Slavic-speaking area is anything but a surprise.

Yes you are absolutely right, it is more about "po" than "pole", and it means "at, by, about", and very often "after". Polesie and Pomorze is easy to decipher, Pole is more difficult. Po-le, le doesn't mean anything. I have a feeling that originally the long name was Polesie (means in the forest or after the forest). Let's say early Slavs were farmers in heavy forested areas, hens they have fields in forests - Polesie. This got simplified as Pole. Small meadow inside forest is called Polana.

 

[LeBrok]

Check this link, it is an incredible find from Pomerania. Shows complicated cultural mixture of Viking, Polish and connection to Kievan Russ. Very fresh from last years dig. It's in polish so use translate button, chrome translated it very well I must say.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/8/650/Ar...zie-To-groby-Wikingow-ktorzy-zakladali-Polske



Edit.
Sorry, the discovery is not in Pomerania, it's about 200 km from the sea, but on Vistula river, which make a sense for Viking travel, but not much with Pomerania.

- Nowhere in Poland, something like that was not there before. We were looking on, anywhere in Europe, something similar was not - tells the talon Professor Andrzej Buko, director of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnology, who directed excavations in Bodzia on Kujawach.
At the cemetery there are graves of people whose funeral rites combines elements of Scandinavian, Slavic , the eastern steppe peoples, Byzantine, Great Moravia, and those that can only be found in the tombs of the sixth, seventh century of the British Isles ...
- One-third of these graves has wooden coffin boxes. It is a thing unique. During this time, the Polish lands these boxes coffin is not. This is a custom very, very late - says prof. Buko about the discovery of butts dating back to the tenth, eleventh century AD.

the cemetery are buried at least 14 men, 21 women and 14 children. The average life of women was between 22 to 35 years and men 35 to 55 years. All are strangers, do not come from these areas.Extremely rich equipment graves indicates that the butts were buried representatives of contemporary social elites.
Apart remains were found two kaptorgi, or silver puzderka, which in the early Middle Ages stored relics and amulets. They are decorated with the symbol of an eagle, maybe it was the coat of arms of these people. However, scientists from the Polish and other countries are not anywhere equivalent for this particular symbol.
was in the tombs also include gold weight, extremely rare item found in medieval graves. Gold plated beads, made ​​probably in Constantinople, scientists count in the hundreds.

Particularly intrigued researchers tomb 25 year old warrior. It has shattered skull. They found him in a fetal position, his hands holding silver, ornate sword.
Shortly into his body is a body of a young woman. We can only guess that it probably died, to be buried with a man. After the right hand of the warrior is buried a young woman. Time, in which she died is difficult to estimate.
Tomb is oriented north-south direction, which would indicate the former Viking rites. However, the man found objects suggest that he had to be very closely related to the Kievan Rus.
Perhaps it was one of the Viking warriors hired ruler of Kievan Rus Swiatopelk Cursed, perhaps it was his son? Surely he had to be closely associated with the court of Boleslaw the Brave.
- In my opinion, the role of the Vikings in the formation of the Polish state is well documented archaeologically - said prof. Buko in "Treasury of Polish Science" - aside butts, I went back a few days ago from Wolin, where colleagues from the resort instytutowego in Szczecin conduct research. There we have a sensational discovery, hundreds of finds related directly to Scandinavia Viking. Such a class finds no one had seen. usc / photos come from the archives of the Institute of Archaeology and Ethnology of the Polish Academy of Sciences

There is an interesting lecture about this discovery. To bad it is in Polish only.

Anyway here what the professor says:

- These are times of first Polish king and his father, and also time when Poland took christianity.
- the oldest graves are of Vikings born in Scandinavia. This was learned by measuring strontium deposit in teath.
So we are talking about Viking trading post on Vistula River almost in the center of Poland. This town was known as one of 4 main Polish important centers.
- the younger graves are of people who came from Kievan Rus. Deducted by measuring level of strontium, and also by rich offering goods being mostly of viking, byzantium type, and some weapons of Khazar/steppe style.
- the richest grave of a knight from Kievan Rus, had a belt with viking and Swietopelek (a king who was chased away from Rus) writing on it. They say he wasn't the king, but one of his relatives. His haplogroups was I1a.
-the type of cemetery, buried goods and burial practices are out of place in Poland, very foreign.


I guess, we have more clues of Viking elite running Kievan Rus, and Viking ethnogenesis of Rus.