Slavic members R-M458 and fictional Eupedia members R-M458 (Germano-Slavic)

Pan349

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If we look at the representation and distribution of haplogroup R-M458 in Germany, we will see the highest representation in the territories of eastern Germany, the further west, the percentage of haplogroup R-M458 decreases. History has recorded the presence of the Slavic peoples in Germany.

I cannot understand the mind of the man who characterized the haplogroup R-M458 as: (Germanо-Slavic).

These are the main and most important branches of the R-M458 haplogroup among Slavs. Unique members of R-M458* and generally those who are * at the top of the tree aged 4000-5000 years with 1-3 members were not taken into account

Phylogenetic tree of haplogroup R-M458 in Slavs:

R-M458>A11460* 2500 ybp
R-M458>A11460>Y85725 1700 ybp
R-M458>A11460>BY202471 1350 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>L260* 2700 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>L260>YP1337 1850 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>L260>YP256 2200 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>FGC2608>BY32066 1350 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>FGC2608>CTS11962*. 3100 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>FGC2608>CTS11962>YP515* 3000 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>FGC2608>CTS11962>YP515>YP509 1950 ybp
R-M458>PF7521>Y2604>FGC2608>CTS11962>L1029 2100 ybp

The branch R-L1029 is represented and spread in all Slavic peoples, from Russia to Germany and further south to Greece

The branch R-L260 and its two sub-branches R-YP1337 and R-YP256 are widely distributed, where the Slavs are and where they once were, there are also members of R-L260, from Russia all the way to Germany. Among southern Slavs, it is very little represented.

The branch R-YP509 is most represented among the Western Slavs, but it is also represented among other Slavic peoples.

The branch R-A11460 has three discovered sub-branches, one of those three sub-branches is R-BY202471, the young and most numerous sub-branch of haplogroup R-A11460. Branch R-BY202471 is represented in northern and southern Slavs.

The branch R-BY32066 is a very small and young branch with about ten tested members: We have 5-6 tested Russians from Russia, two Poles and two tested from the same family from some West Asian country.

The gentleman who characterized M458 under the term (Germano-Slavic) is living in a delusion and a lie. This really insults the intelligence of the average person.

This is hypocrisy, partiality and shame for a man who uses lies.
According to the same logic, it can be characterized as members of haplogroup R-U106 (Slavic-Germans)
Because among the Slavic peoples there are members of R-U106 who were Slavized and assimilated.

You see the hypocrisy of the man who characterized the Germanized and assimilated Slavs R-M458 as: (Germano-Slavic). He actually characterized not only Germanized Slavs from Germany and Austria, but also all Western, Eastern and Southern Slavs as a mixture of Germans and Slavs.
 
You should work on your people's skills. It's generally not a good idea to insult the site owner on your first post.

R1a-M458 and even R-M458 > PF7521 > Y2604 have a TMRCA of 5000 years. R1a-M458 was found in the Corded Ware culture, which is ancestral to Slavic, Baltic and Germanic people. There was no Germanic ethnicity until R1b moved up from Central Europe to Scandinavia circa 1700 BCE and mixed with the predominantly R1a folks there.

In any case, in the R1a page I listed M458 under the Slavic branch, along with Z280, as I agree that it is more Slavic than Germanic.

I suppose that your jibe was directed at the fact that I wrote 'Germano-Slavic' branch under the famous members section. That is because ethnicities evolve with time. Eastern Germanic tribes did settled in most of present-day Poland then moved to western Ukraine, where they became the Goths. Although they were culturally and linguistically Germanic, there is little doubt that the Goths absorbed Proto-Slavic tribes during their centuries of living in Poland and Ukraine before they moved into the Roman Empire. Likewise, it would be very hard to imagine that the Germanic Goths didn't also leave genetic traces in Poland after leaving the region, before the real Slavs moved there during the Late Antiquity. So Poles were from the start a blend of Slavs (high percentage) and Germanics (low percentage), just like the Goths were (with inverted proportions).

So before you call people names, try to think a bit more thoroughly and not see everything in black and white. Ethnic groups aren't pure. They are always mixtures of other peoples. And linguistic groups don't match genetic groups, for the simple reason that languages can impose themselves quickly on various groups of different people.
 
You should work on your people's skills. It's generally not a good idea to insult the site owner on your first post.

R1a-M458 and even R-M458 > PF7521 > Y2604 have a TMRCA of 5000 years. R1a-M458 was found in the Corded Ware culture, which is ancestral to Slavic, Baltic and Germanic people. There was no Germanic ethnicity until R1b moved up from Central Europe to Scandinavia circa 1700 BCE and mixed with the predominantly R1a folks there.

In any case, in the R1a page I listed M458 under the Slavic branch, along with Z280, as I agree that it is more Slavic than Germanic.

I suppose that your jibe was directed at the fact that I wrote 'Germano-Slavic' branch under the famous members section. That is because ethnicities evolve with time. Eastern Germanic tribes did settled in most of present-day Poland then moved to western Ukraine, where they became the Goths. Although they were culturally and linguistically Germanic, there is little doubt that the Goths absorbed Proto-Slavic tribes during their centuries of living in Poland and Ukraine before they moved into the Roman Empire. Likewise, it would be very hard to imagine that the Germanic Goths didn't also leave genetic traces in Poland after leaving the region, before the real Slavs moved there during the Late Antiquity. So Poles were from the start a blend of Slavs (high percentage) and Germanics (low percentage), just like the Goths were (with inverted proportions).

So before you call people names, try to think a bit more thoroughly and not see everything in black and white. Ethnic groups aren't pure. They are always mixtures of other peoples. And linguistic groups don't match genetic groups, for the simple reason that languages can impose themselves quickly on various groups of different people.
Hi Maciamo,

Do you plan to update the article/page of R1a, with all the new M458 branches, and aDNA samples??

We have a 5 Roman era samples (3 L1029, 1 L260, and 1 CTS11962) in Wielbark, 1 in Hallstatt (M458), 2 in La Tene (L1029 and M458), 1 in Trzciniec (M458) and a large amount in Medieval Poland.

Theres also alot of new branches that are not on the trees/spread.

If you like, I can gather the studies and the sample ids for you to include??
 
M458 is Germano-Slavic now, but two thousand years ago was a different story and indeed, it may have been neither. All diversity of M458 is on the west. There are only two scenarios that make sense to me; in the first one, the M458 rich people either belong to an extinct language or a para-Baltic dialect and live in the eastern half of Poland. There is some expansion into Ukraine and Belarus of M458 lines like YP1337, YP263, and YP417 which then work to differentiate the southeast Baltic population in the middle Dnieper valley into the Slavic peoples. Centuries later, the Slavic expansion either drives out some lines (which now become Germanic, eventually, as they flee west) or assimilate them into the West Slavic peoples, with some of them later becoming German due to the Ostseidlung. The second scenario, which makes the most sense but apparently greatly offends Russian chauvinists on various anthrofora, who like to think all the Slavs came from the East Slavs and they are the source of all Slavic civilization, places the Slavic urheimat right where the shaded Carpet Kurgan area is on this map and recently championed by Jürgen Udolph. This has the advantage of placing the urheimat at an area where all three Slavic groups could easily and equally bifurcate (or trifurcate, as it were), and allow M458 to be present in the urheimat without relying on large migrations with no intervening evidence to fill gaps in the Muscovite Just-so story.
 

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