Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age

Another sample from Viminacium. Interesting subclade, on top sitting an Armenian and the rest all from Western Europe. But, i refrain to make conclusions from yfull solely.

Another potential native Geto-Dacian likely, but could be equally Celtic La Tene in origin as well.

R3931; 130-231 AD; Viminacium, Serbia; E-V13>Z1057>CTS1273>BY3880>Z5018>Z16242>pre-Y178966

Same on FTDNA, even upstream only Westerners (English, Portuguese) and an Armenian. The English branch is independent and old, but the sampled branch age is very shallow, about 800 years of age. The Portuguese on the other hand have some diversity, two independent branches of very high age. Seems to be a branch which split in Pannonia, one going Iranian and East, the other Celtic and West. The new one is a member of those staying behind close to the Carpathian basin.
 
Same on FTDNA, even upstream only Westerners (English, Portuguese) and an Armenian. The English branch is independent and old, but the sampled branch age is very shallow, about 800 years of age. The Portuguese on the other hand have some diversity, two independent branches of very high age. Seems to be a branch which split in Pannonia, one going Iranian and East, the other Celtic and West. The new one is a member of those staying behind close to the Carpathian basin.

I see, i posted one potential Albanian, but i was on my phone, and couldn't check it clearly, though he is E-V13 BY3880, his downstream could be any other subclade.
 
Very interesting maps from Ph2ter on Anthrogenica. Essentially showing the Croatian Illyrians as having autosomal similarities to Albanians, but not the Montenegrin.

p6N3Rrf.png


2FqZhjZ.png


R1jkrRf.png


Obviously a diverse region like Italy would come up too, because IBD studies have shown any 2 random Italians today have as many common ancestors with each other as they do with an Albanian.
 
That I1 in Croatia seems like a Goth to me. I wonder if we could use that a sample to figure out the % of Gothic ancestry near the Balkans. I assume it could be as high as 15% in some regions.

b7nrv8p.png
 
Your (and Bruzmi etc.) main point is E-V13 = Pelasgian. It is NOT "Pelasgian" it is IE..

Where did I write this? I literally posted this a few days back

I hear that J2b got confirmed? This means that J2B2-L283 was a minor-IE lineage then. If someone can elaborate what specific clade it was that'd be great.

Even in 23andme they talk about this being a "farmer lineage" lol. They think only R is IE. I think pretty much all Y-DNA in Europe today is Indo-European. J2B2 down, now EV13 to prove. G/T died out.

Even Maciamo posted J2B2 was probably a minor steppe lineage from CHG admixture. Idk what the ultimate origin of EV-13 is, but its Bronze Age expansion shows it was clearly linked to IE-speaking people.
 
Haven't you seen the time-frame for the Montenegrin sample? It is far too late for it to resemble an Illyrian at all.
 
Haven't you seen the time-frame for the Montenegrin sample? It is far too late for it to resemble an Illyrian at all.


The J2B2 implies some genetic continuity in the region. I'm surprised that Croatian samples from a thousand years before share more in common with modern Albanians.

Or maybe it's a J2B2 from Serbia. That could be the case. The Serbian sample also showed little relation to Albanians.


 
IqulgSz.png


Yeah I think that's it. The Serbian/Montenegrin ones (even though Montenegro is closer) show no relation to modern Albanians, but the Late Antiquity Croatian ones do. Again implying the Illyrian ties to Albania, while showing the lack of continuity with Central Balkans.
 
Where did I write this? I literally posted this a few days back



Even Maciamo posted J2B2 was probably a minor steppe lineage from CHG admixture. Idk what the ultimate origin of EV-13 is, but its Bronze Age expansion shows it was clearly linked to IE-speaking people.

I took your constant mentioning of Albanian Greek relations as a sign that your think many Albanian V13's are of Greek origin, and that admixture of Greeks, heavy with V13, caused autosomal shift in Albanians away from the Illyrians.. And usually in the past people connecting Greeks and V13 had Pelasgians in mind for V13.

I'll take that back. But Bruzmi was quite clear on various occasions, including quoting Bosniak DNA project admin (who changed his opinion on that) on V13 Pelasgians. Whenever any V13 North of Danube pops out, Bruzmi is trying to make him a recent immigrant from the Balkans.

Those who popularize V13 Pleasgians are in essence trying to say that V13 has nothing to do with any Balkan IE people. I used to see that alot on poreklo. "Doesn't matter if you are V13 and fake Slav, you are also a fake Illyrian as V13 were Pelasgians who got assimilated etc".

BA expansion was always a strong argument for IE connections, and I used this as an argument against these interpretations.
 
IqulgSz.png


Yeah I think that's it. The Serbian/Montenegrin ones (even though Montenegro is closer) show no relation to modern Albanians, but the Late Antiquity Croatian ones do. Again implying the Illyrian ties to Albania, while showing the lack of continuity with Central Balkans.

This one was a wrong call for L283. Trojet said its a R1b. To me it looks like a White Croat given the similarity map.
 
This one was a wrong call for L283. Trojet said its a R1b. To me it looks like a White Croat given the similarity map.
I heard of that too and he obviously looks like an early Croat. The official coordinates of R3481 Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro 211 - 321 CE J2b-L283>Z1043 and R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia J2b-L283>Z1043 hopefully once out will be very interesting. Are they perhaps low coverage in terms of auDNA or is it really just that the official coordinates are not out?
 
I heard of that too and he obviously looks like an early Croat. The official coordinates of R3481 Doclea Bjelovine, Montenegro 211 - 321 CE J2b-L283>Z1043 and R3544 Gardun (Tilurium), Croatia J2b-L283>Z1043 hopefully once out will be very interesting. Are they perhaps low coverage in terms of auDNA or is it really just that the official coordinates are not out?

Unless these are some migrants from the SE in Roman times, this is an indication that Z631 is deeply involved with the Glasinac-Mati culture as I predicted long time ago. Despite the fact that Z638 is generally more Southern, and most of the clades might have been born in modern day Albania.
 
Unless these are some migrants from the SE in Roman times, this is an indication that Z631 is deeply involved with the Glasinac-Mati culture as I predicted long time ago. Despite the fact that Z638 is generally more Southern, and most of the clades might have been born in modern day Albania.

Looking at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/
I think its quite clear it was born fairly up in the North, but reached Albania in the transitional period, probably because some of the inhumation tumuli burying groups being pushed from the North West. You see that most of the South Eastern European and especially Albanians subclades start about 1.200-1.000 BC, right in the transitional period. Before that, there are more samples closer to the potential root area, closer to Slovenia, Italy and many being spread by Celts it seems. I doubt it reached Albania before 1.200 BC.
 
Looking at https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/
I think its quite clear it was born fairly up in the North, but reached Albania in the transitional period, probably because some of the inhumation tumuli burying groups being pushed from the North West. You see that most of the South Eastern European and especially Albanians subclades start about 1.200-1.000 BC, right in the transitional period. Before that, there are more samples closer to the potential root area, closer to Slovenia, Italy and many being spread by Celts it seems. I doubt it reached Albania before 1.200 BC.

Yes, of course, just as people like you claimed in the past J-Z631>Z1043 was clearly spread by the Celts by looking at the YFull tree. Wonder how that's looking after the latest aDNA result from Montenegro, combined with its complete absense in Celtic related regions/cultures.

Not saying you're definitely wrong in this case, but we should be very careful before jumping into any premature conclusions, especially when we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample from the very south of Croatia dated to ~1461 BCE, Middle Bronze Age (https://goo.gl/maps/LcLGKkErdhe9EzA57)
 
Yes, of course, just as people like you claimed in the past J-Z631>Z1043 was clearly spread by the Celts by looking at the YFull tree. Wonder how that's looking after the latest aDNA result from Montenegro, combined with its complete absense in Celtic regions/cultures.
Not saying you're definitely wrong in this case, but we should be very careful before jumping into any premature conclusions, especially when we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample from the very south of Croatia dated to ~1461 BCE, Middle Bronze Age (https://goo.gl/maps/LcLGKkErdhe9EzA57)

NEO806

Date (mean)
1063 BCE


Phylogeny

J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Z638>Z1297>Z1295>Y21878


Archaeological Context
Italy_BronzeAge

This is an early East Adriatic migration pattern and can only be possible if Z638+ was already on the other side of the Adriatic which it obviously was as you said in MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture.
 
TBH at least people like Riverman and Ghurier try to use historical/statistical models to back their claims, even when certain claims made turn out wrong. But for Ghuriers case, he would get way too defensive when we would point out that just knowing how to use a statistical method, does not mean it was deployed in its correct use case, or the right interpretations were taken from such. Rather for him us critiquing his models meant that we had some agenda... That really rubbed me off the wrong way.
One thing I will give him, Balkan discussions do look like a madhouse from the outside looking in. So can't fault him for that conclusion.
 
It was spread by Celts through backflow for the most part, when La Tene Celts came into the East Alpine-Pannonian-Balkan sphere. By assimilating local Illyrian related and Scythianised people.

Yes, some things need to turn out, but a larger scale settlement of areas like Albania before the LBA is just rather unlikely.

The difference to E-V13 is apparent though, because the diversification of Illyrian J-L283 branches seem to have started within the Albanian sphere LATEST about 1.200-900 BC.
We know E-V13 was likely present about the same time as well, but we have little to no evidence for such an early diversification in the Pre-Albanian sphere.
Many, even most, modern branches of the region could have come there as late as the Early Medieval time.
This says nothing about which side carried the language, but it means there was an old and stable presence of J-L283 since the LBA, whereas the same just can't be confirmed for E-V13 by modern or ancient data.
It's at this point a post-date, 1.200-900. J-L283 could have been there earlier too, but that's conjecture.
Based on other evidence and the general pattern, I'd say no for the main lineages, but we'll see.
 
Yeah, Riverman is definitely not bad and is someone who I feel I can have an honest debate. He contributes a lot in these topics, especially for "Balkan" haplogroups like V13.

My main criticism for him is that he seems to rely too much on modern distribution. Often times, this has led to the wrong conclusions in the past (Ex: "E-V13 was spread by ancient Greeks, J-L283 obviously spread from Sardinia", etc).

In this case, maybe he forgot we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample dated to ~1461 BCE just North of Albania, and suggested they were in Slovenia/North Italy during that period which obviously there is no evidence from ancient samples either..
 
In this case, maybe he forgot we already have a J-Z638+ aDNA sample dated to ~1461 BCE just North of Albania, and suggested they were in Slovenia/North Italy during that period which obviously there is no evidence from ancient samples either..

The J2b-L283>638+ sample is from the same archeological context as the other J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240 which lies within MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture which furthermore attests that the they spread from the same cultural context. If there already was a variety of clades in a MBA Dalmatian context it will also show in the IA Illyrian context who are clearly a parental and autosomal continuity from these samples for which in the East and West Adriatic we already have ancient Z638+ BA samples. Postulating or assuming that Z638+ will be found in more northern or inland ancient samples too is not "jumping to conclusions" in my opinion. That of course does not change the fact that 631>Z1043 was obviously not spread by Celts lol
 
The J2b-L283>638+ sample is from the same archeological context as the other J-L283>>Z615>Z597>Y15058>Z38240 which lies within MBA Dalmatian Posusje culture which furthermore attests that the they spread from the same cultural context. If there already was a variety of clades in a MBA Dalmatian context it will also show in the IA Illyrian context who are clearly a parental and autosomal continuity from these samples for which in the East and West Adriatic we already have ancient Z638+ BA samples. Postulating or assuming that Z638+ will be found in more northern or inland ancient samples too is not "jumping to conclusions" in my opinion. That of course does not change the fact that 631>Z1043 was obviously not spread by Celts lol

There are three major movements which are likely to cause a push factor for J-L283:
- Tumulus culture/Koszider horizon (1.600 BC, caused major dents for both J-L283, E-V13 and many other Carpatho-Balkan lineages, some being almost completely annihilated)
- Middle Danubian Urnfield expansion -> Largely from the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, but they pushed those conservative groups which stuck to inhumation in collective tumuli (classical Illyrians and related people) to the South East
- La Tene Celts

J-L283 went down with TC, but up with the Middle Danubian UF, so they either participated in it or got "motivated" to expand successfully to the South and East by their pressure. I think both did happen, participation in Pannonia, "motivated push" in classical Illyria, so J-L283 might have gotten split into more North Western integrated people which adopted cremation and mixed with R-L2 in particular and those staying independent and conservative, keeping collective clan burials etc., which was the main/proper Illyrian group which formed Glasinac-Mati.

Somewhere between 1.600-900 BC I expect them to arrive in and around Albania with lineages that matter. The 1.200-900 BC time frame is just a safer starting point going by the modern data, but of course, ancient DNA always trumps modern.
 

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