steppe theory and western europe

Status
Not open for further replies.
Rochman acknowledges the suffering of the Palestinians, but at the same time he also defends the right of the Israel to exist and to defend herself. This man is about solutions. However, he says that there on both sides, on the Israeli and Palestinian side, politicians that don't want peace, but that want to keep the conflicts between the two population alive for political gain and power.

I agree, there is a majority on both sides who don't want peace.
Therefore I'm labeled pro-Palestinian and ant-Semitic in here.

And they are so liberal.

blablabla
 
The steppe theory is the one defended by Harvard, Reich and colleagues (Haak, Olalde, Mathieson, Lazaridis) since the works published in 2.015, that is, that a massive migration from the Yamnaya culture starring R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 brought IE to mainland Europe- As long as these very smart researchers are not able to prove the patrilineal genetic continuity between the steppes and Western Europe, it is just a fairy tale. And of course to say that the Yamnaya were a horde of blond-haired, blue-eyed horsemen is one of the biggest stupidities ever said in the field of genetics. Maybe some newcomers may think so, but there is enough evidence to prove that this is a big lie. Certain languages are linked to certain genes and while we can demonstrate in Iberia a clear male genetic continuity linked to R1b-P312 between the Iberian BB culture, the Iron Age Iberians and the present day Basques/Spaniards, the fact is that our friends at Harvard cannot do the same between Yamnaya or any other steppe culture you care to choose and the Iberian peninsula. Ergo, until proven otherwise, it is evident that neither P312 nor the BB culture spoke an IE language in the Iberian peninsula and the south of France.

Regarding leftist politics and Cheddar man, I am surprised that people are shocked by the attitude of certain politicians and journalists. When La Braña sample was published, with his dark skin and blue eyes nobody was surprised, here in Spain the case went totally unnoticed and nobody gave it any importance. There have also appeared swarthy EHGs (Minino, Russia) and nobody mentions them, I suppose that some Russian friends will have a heart attack when they find out.
 
The steppe theory is the one defended by Harvard, Reich and colleagues (Haak, Olalde, Mathieson, Lazaridis) since the works published in 2.015, that is, that a massive migration from the Yamnaya culture starring R1b-L51 and R1a-M417 brought IE to mainland Europe- As long as these very smart researchers are not able to prove the patrilineal genetic continuity between the steppes and Western Europe, it is just a fairy tale. And of course to say that the Yamnaya were a horde of blond-haired, blue-eyed horsemen is one of the biggest stupidities ever said in the field of genetics. Maybe some newcomers may think so, but there is enough evidence to prove that this is a big lie. Certain languages are linked to certain genes and while we can demonstrate in Iberia a clear male genetic continuity linked to R1b-P312 between the Iberian BB culture, the Iron Age Iberians and the present day Basques/Spaniards, the fact is that our friends at Harvard cannot do the same between Yamnaya or any other steppe culture you care to choose and the Iberian peninsula. Ergo, until proven otherwise, it is evident that neither P312 nor the BB culture spoke an IE language in the Iberian peninsula and the south of France.

Regarding leftist politics and Cheddar man, I am surprised that people are shocked by the attitude of certain politicians and journalists. When La Braña sample was published, with his dark skin and blue eyes nobody was surprised, here in Spain the case went totally unnoticed and nobody gave it any importance. There have also appeared swarthy EHGs (Minino, Russia) and nobody mentions them, I suppose that some Russian friends will have a heart attack when they find out.

Nobody is shocked, so I don't understand your attitude. You were the one that used these journalists as an example in the first place. BTW Falsely claiming that FOX news has a slant on genetics, when I corrected you by showing it was outlets like CNN.

But yes, it was clear from La Braña that the WHG had dark skin.
 
I have an overbite (maxillary prognathism). Perhaps my dentist and orthodontist are oppressing me with "ugly racist terminology" according to Max Dashu. Seriously it is concerning when standard anthropological and medical terminology can't even be used. In fact I think they don't even want the subjects addressed at all, which would be disastrous if they actually tried to do anything about it.


Oh, by the way, the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" which means below the Sahara is racist, certain birds are racist, and dog breeds, such as the German shepherd, Doberman, dachshund are racist, too. So, don't forget geographical terms, certain birds and dog breeds are racist. The scary part of all of this is that it's not a satire attempt, but people are dead serious about it.
 
Nobody is shocked, so I don't understand your attitude. You were the one that used these journalists as an example in the first place. BTW Falsely claiming that FOX news has a slant on genetics, when I corrected you by showing it was outlets like CNN.

But yes, it was clear from La Braña that the WHG had dark skin.

Not only Whgs, what about EHgs? And remember that not all WHgs were dark-skinned and that the Scandinavian Hgs, although primarily Western, were also light-skinned, as were the vast majority of EEFs.
 
Same guy. The first Cro-Magnon from the Daily Mail looks like a modern European, just especially rugged.
Screen Shot 2021-06-16 at 1.52.47 PM.jpg

The second, from I don't even know which God-forsaken website, well…I'm not even offended they gave him dark skin, but they really had to make him look like a gender non-conforming drag queen.
6a00d83451af9f69e201b7c95d5076970b-500wi.jpg

Point is, the facial reconstruction artists work with skeletal material, on which they are experts. I don't think they know anything about the genes for skin color. Therefore, when the mainstream media picks up on it, they confuse the public.
 
@ Gaska,


Sorry Gaska, but Felipe VI is a wimp and beta male for marrying such an arrogant feminist with a strong narcissistic vibe. This woman has the warmth of a freezer, and she got some plastic surgeries in order to look nicer than she actually is. I would give a woman like that a hard pass. But back to the topic, someone on Eurogenes honestly and openly admitted that his world was shattered after he found out that he wasn't 100% Steppe/ Yamanya, but also part Anatolian Farmer. He also wrote that he's now fine with his farmer ancestry. Despite the fact that Anatolian Farmers had light skin, they are still not particularly liked among some folks. In contrast to that, the WHG lineage in spite of their dark skin which came as a shock to many, is still considered as more desirable than the "gay" Anatolian Farmer lineage. To me, it's a bit amusing when people talk like that since it's very silly and childish.
 
Wow I didn't know that the Spanish royal family was so well known outside our borders, but again I have to agree with you.

Really? Who are you talking about?
After two years commenting on eurogenes I am not surprised by what you are saying but you have aroused my curiosity.
Gay Anatolian Farmer lineage? What do you mean? That they were crushed by the Yamnaya? that they did not know how to defend their women?
Who in their right mind could think that?
 
Wow I didn't know that the Spanish royal family was so well known outside our borders, but again I have to agree with you.

Really? Who are you talking about?
After two years commenting on eurogenes I am not surprised by what you are saying but you have aroused my curiosity.
Gay Anatolian Farmer lineage? What do you mean? That they were crushed by the Yamnaya? that they did not know how to defend their women?
Who in their right mind could think that?


The Farmer being "gay" part I've read on several forums including the TA. But even on anthrogenica some made between the lines and with clouded language negative remarks about the ANF because they can't talk freely on AG with its heavy censoring politics . Well, I suppose when people talk about "gay" Anatolian Farmers, they mean that they were weak or effeminate. And the fact that the farmers were rather short, and definitely shorter than the rather tall and powerfully built Yamanya, made them less sexy to certain people, too. The European hunter gatherers were also pretty tall, especially the Gravettians who had the average height of whooping 184 cm. Besides, I don‘t exactly recall which commenter on Eurogenes wrote that. However, I think it was a polish or probably a Russian individual who wrote that he was shocked that he wasn't of fully Indo-European horseman origin. He though, changed his attitude after he learnt that the Farmers are part of his ancestry.
 
Oh, by the way, the term "Sub-Saharan Africa" which means below the Sahara is racist, certain birds are racist, and dog breeds, such as the German shepherd, Doberman, dachshund are racist, too. So, don't forget geographical terms, certain birds and dog breeds are racist. The scary part of all of this is that it's not a satire attempt, but people are dead serious about it.

Oh you are correct, I had someone question me about the term "Sub-Saharan Africa". I was told by someone with 100% certainty that the Sahara Desert only became Dry circa 3,500 to 3,000 BC! Of course I had to educate the person on the matter that the Sahara is in fact > 7 million years old and oscillates between long periods of dry Sahara (20-25K years) to wet Sahara (5 to 7K years, etc). I noted the term Asian Sub-Continent is used in geography and other Science related fields and also asked, in a somewhat smart... way, is the term Sub-Marine racist to Surface ships?

Yes their are terms that are racist or ethnic slurs, those that dehumanize another person or group of people. 100% totally agree. However, terms that describe geographical reality racist? No, so I refuse to be controlled by the woke secular liberal thought police.
 
The Farmer being "gay" part I've read on several forums including the TA. But even on anthrogenica some made between the lines and with clouded language negative remarks about the ANF because they can't talk freely on AG with its heavy censoring politics . Well, I suppose when people talk about "gay" Anatolian Farmers, they mean that they were weak or effeminate. And the fact that the farmers were rather short, and definitely shorter than the rather tall and powerfully built Yamanya, made them less sexy to certain people, too. The European hunter gatherers were also pretty tall, especially the Gravettians who had the average height of whooping 184 cm. Besides, I don‘t exactly recall which commenter on Eurogenes wrote that. However, I think it was a polish or probably a Russian individual who wrote that he was shocked that he wasn't of fully Indo-European horseman origin. He though, changed his attitude after he learnt that the Farmers are part of his ancestry.

The irony of that ignorant sentiment is that the greatest conquerors in history owe most of their ancestry Anatolian_N. The Romans, the Greeks, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, even the English owe slightly more of their ancestry to Anatolian_N than to Yamnaya. If you think about it too, they were much more aggressive and domineering towards the Scots and Irish who are more Steppe than they are.
QVAHGbC.png
 
Last edited:
The irony of that ignorant sentiment is that the greatest conquerors in history owe most of their ancestry Anatolian_N. The Romans, the Greeks, the Spanish, the Portuguese, the French, even the English owe slightly more of their ancestry to Anatolian_N than to Yamnaya. If you think about it too, they were much more aggressive and domineering towards the Scots and Irish who are more Steppe than they are.
QVAHGbC.png


That graphic has to be non accurate right?

Tuscans 0 WHG?
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm4RQtISppY

Look at these images, the Moroccans are now the best allies of the United States in the Mediterranean. It's ok, nothing to object, they have their interests and we have ours.

Hate to tell you this but you might want to give up your occupied territories of Morroco, at the same time that the British yield Gibraltar.
 
^^This is from the seminal study, Haak et al. 2015

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature14317

discussed here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe

Regardless if the modeling for Tuscans is correct, your point does not poke a hole in my argument. If you want to talk about WHG in Tuscans, I suggest you go to the thread I linked.

Rdx1whi.png


https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-07483-5

TC Lamnidis et al 2018 shows more of the same for English.

lol. Wasn't even trying to poke a hole at anything. Just found that little detail interesting. I have seen the graphic many many times in the forum, just first time I noticed Tuscans with no WHG. (y)
 
Hate to tell you this but you might want to give up your occupied territories of Morroco, at the same time that the British yield Gibraltar.

If you hate to say it, don't say it because you're not right. Ceuta and Melilla are Spanish cities hundreds of years before the Kingdom of Morocco existed. In fact Ceuta was a Portuguese city but remained loyal to Spain when Portugal became independent from the Spanish Empire. Ergo Spain will never give up sovereignty in those cities because they are more Spanish than the peninsulars. We already ceded a lot of territory when the Spanish and French Protectorate in Morocco ended, we withdrew from Western Sahara in compliance with the UN resolutions on decolonization. The Moors have no right to claim anything and they know that those cities will never be Moroccan, they are only trying to provoke Spain and the European Union not to put obstacles to their illegal occupation of the Sahara. I hope this is clear to you. Regarding Gibraltar has nothing to do with Ceuta or Melilla, is a piece of rock with strategic value that the Dutch and English occupied in the War of Spanish Succession, we do not care that the British insist on keeping it, we give it away, the only bad thing is that it has become a nest of smugglers, gangsters who encourage illegal immigration through the strait and refuge of offshore companies engaged in tax evasion.
 
Please let me know which country wasn't founded on some form of injustice. The woke ****s say this about my country all the time, and I hate it just as much. It is an awful thing to say, and anyone in their right mind from that nation would be offended. Is Saudi Arabia's founding a similar crime, since the Saud family pretty much subjugated the whole land by the sword?

with that kind of argumentation you could justifiy pretty much everything. there are also obvious differences between the conquests of the Saud family and the foundation of Israel.

if you argue like this why not just remove palestine completely push the people out and give all of the land to israel?
 
with that kind of argumentation you could justifiy pretty much everything. there are also obvious differences between the conquests of the Saud family and the foundation of Israel.

if you argue like this why not just remove palestine completely push the people out and give all of the land to israel?


what is the soulution to the israeli- palestinian conflict in your opinion ?
two state solution ?
we are not going to return back to europe and other places were are ancestors lived for the last 2000 years....:rolleyes:
 
Well, here we have come to talk about the steppe theory and that is what I am going to do.

It is important to understand what the famous steppe ancestry consists of, according to the Kurganist scientists and propagandists it appeared in continental Europe at the beginning of the 3rd millennium BC with the CWC (75%-Yamnaya)-The autosomal composition of this steppe culture (3.300-2. 600 BC) is reduced to three components (EHG +CHG+ EEF) assumed to have been introduced into continental Europe exclusively by the male lineages R1a-M417 and R1b-M269/L51/P312, linked to both CWC and BBC-Discarded Yamnaya culture as the origin of these mass migrations because of the non-existence of R1a-M417 and R1b-L51, the Kurganists have had to resort either to the phantasmagoric group called Eneolithic of the Steppes (Progress2 and Vonyuschka) or to the Sredni Stog culture as the supposed origin of both these male lineages and of the new autosomal composition detected in Europe. But the important points are;

1-To date, the R1b-L51 marker has not been found in the Yamnaya culture or in any other of the steppe cultures studied, which prevents the establishment of a direct male genetic connection between the steppes and Western Europe. Neither R1a-M417 nor R1b-Z2103, nor R1b-V1636, nor I2a-L699 have been found in any French, English or Iberian Neolithic or Chalcolithic site therefore these male lineages cannot be linked to the spread of IE.

2-The calculated autosomal compositions can not only be manipulated by choosing certain samples and excluding others that do not fit the theories that are intended to demonstrate, but also by studying individuals that may or may not be representative of their respective communities or cultures, since each one of them has its own personal and family history- It is therefore useless to generalize and draw indisputable conclusions using a small number of samples (which are not usually contemporary with each other), since the autosomal composition of a few individuals is clearly insufficient to understand the entire genetic history of a region, a culture, or a prehistoric period.

3- The typical steppe signal (50%-EHG and 50%-CHG) was present in steppe cultures at least since the Neolithic (Khvalynsk culture), which invalidates the hypothesis that migrations from the Yamnaya culture are the only possible source of the entry of this marker into Continental Europe.

4-Steppe ancestry (EHG-CHG) has been detected in some individuals of the Sredni Stog (Vovnigi, Volniensky.5 .400 BC), Gumelnita-Karanovo (Smyadovo, Varna-4,500 BC) and Cucuteni-Tripillya (Gordinești, Pocrovca-3,300 BC) which demonstrates the spread of this autosomal signal throughout Eastern Europe long before the Yamnaya culture existed (3,300-2. 600 BC) and opens the door to the possibility that it was spread by western Europe thanks to the Neolithic migrations and to the exogamy practiced by those societies, without having to resort to the explanation of the massive steppe migrations nor to the CWC-The existence of the autosomal CHG component in the Neolithic of Turkey, Greece and Italy has been demonstrated beyond any doubt, which means that the Anatolian Neolithic farmers that spread throughout Europe were able to carry this Caucasian marker to the rest of Europe creating autosomal signals very similar to the typical one of the steppe cultures.

5- No autosomal component detected in the Yamnaya culture is foreign to the autosomal composition of the neolithic farmers of central and western Europe (which in the case of Iberia and the GAC had 25% WHGs). Ehg is a mixture of ANE and WHG, WHGs have small percentages of ANE in their autosomes, the percentage of EEF in Yamnaya is western (i.e. it comes from the Balkans, not from Anatolia or Caucasus), because it has a good percentage of WHgs. Regarding CHG, we have already seen that it reached the Balkans and the Italian Peninsula very early. This means that the percentages of Yamnaya ancestry in the European Chalcolithic are quite difficult to calculate and may cause gross errors in many researchers.

Considering this situation we have to ask ourselves when and how did the steppe ancestry arrive? This paper is fundamental to understanding what happened-Ancient genomes reveal social and genetic structure of Late Neolithic Switzerland-Anja Furtwängler (2.020)-

-*Suplementary Data-4-qpAdm admixture models for each individual-P-values greater than 0,05 (model is no rejected) marked in green-WHG-Anatolian Farmer-Yamnaya-Samara-Using the right population-Ethiopia, MA1-HG, Villabruna, Papuan, Onge, Han, Karitiana-

*Neolithic Samples-

*I0405-Mina3 (3.750 AC)-HapY-I2a1a/1-Mit-K1a1/b1-WHG (0.192) AF (0.662) Yamnaya (0.147)
*I0406-Mina4 (3.750 AC)-HapY-I2a2a/1b2-Mit-H1-WHG (0.221) AF (0.665) Yamnaya (0.114)
*I4308 (3.500 AC)-Collet Redon-WHG (0.221) AF (0,673) Yamnaya (0.106)
*I0519 (3.230 AC)-Banbury Lane-HapY-I-Mit-X2b@226-WHG (0.253) AF (0.584) Yamnaya (0.163)
*I0520 (3.230 AC)-Banbury Lane-HapY-I-Mit-U5a2/c-WHG (0.2379) AF (0.516) Yamnaya (0.247)
*I0800 (3.221 AC)-Salzmuende- WHG (0.298) AF (0542) Yamnaya (0.161)
*RA45 (3.011 BC)-Oberpipp-Mit-H1-WHG (0,304) Anatolina Farmer (0,568) Yamnaya- (0.129)
*Aesch16 (3.004 BC)-Mit-K1a2-WHG (0,201)-Anatolian Farmer (0,563)-Yamnaya-S (0,237)
*I2629 (2.980 AC)-Isbister, Orkney-HapY-I2-Hap Mit-J1c1/b-WHG (0.177) AF (0.355) Yamnaya (0.468)
*Aesch9 (2.899 BC)-Hap MIt-U5b2/b5-WHG (0,231)-AF (0,622)-Yamnaya-S (0,148)
*Aesch20 (2.895 BC)-HapY-G2a-Z6488-Mit-K2b1/a-WHG (0,264)-AF (0.543)-Yam-S (0.193)
*Aesch6 (2.832 BC)-HapY-G2a2a-PF3147-Mit-H5-WHG (0.235)-AF (0.641)-Yamnaya-S (0.123)
*Aesch21 (No collagen)-HapY-G2a-PF3239-Mit-U8b1/b1-WHG (0,201)-AF (0,545)-Yam-S (0.254)
*Aesch7 (No collagen)-HapY-G2a-Z6488-Mit-U5b2/b2-WHG (0.204)-AF (0.662)-Yamnaya-S (0.134)
*MX304 (2.734 AC)-Dolmen de AuvernierHapY-R1b-CTS5330-WHG (0.043) AF (0.743)-Yamnaya-S (0.215)
*MX310 (2.721 AC)-Burgäschisee-HapY-R1b1a/2-M269-WHG (0.00)-AF (0.700)-Yamnaya-S (0.300)
*Aesch25 (2.682 BC)-HapY-R1b-L51-Mit-X2b@226-WHG (0,113)-AF (0.089)-Yamnaya-S (0.798)



It seems clear that steppe ancestry was present in small percentages-10-25% in western Europe because we have 24 samples of western Neolithic farmers with clear Yamnaya-Samara ancestry-Switzerland-10 (1-Oberpipp, 7-Aesch, 1-Auvernier, 1-Burgaschisee)- Britain-10 (2-Banbury Lane, 8-Scotland-Isbister-Orkney-2,980 BC-46.8 %), Iberia-2-(2-La Mina-3,750 BC)- Germany-1 (1-Salzmuende-3,211 BC)-France-(1-Collet Redon-3,500 BC)-It is also interesting to note that the male lineages that have these Yamnaya percentages are I2a1a, I2a2a, G2a, G2a2a........The first conclusions we can draw are that the steppe ancestry arrived in Western Europe with the Neolithic farmers, that R1b-L51, R1a-M417, R1b Z2103 etc had nothing to do at first with the issue, that women participated in the process in a very important way and that linking this situation with the spread of IE is a very very very very risky theory.

To complicate the situation even more, the first BBs--R1b-P312 both in Great Britain and Iberia are curiously the ones with the lowest percentages of Yamnaya ancestry of all the samples analyzed by Iñigo Olalde (8-20%). How is this possible? if they came directly from the steppes, shouldn't it have been the other way around, i.e. they would have been progressively losing that signal when mixing with farm women due to exogamy?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

This thread has been viewed 13341 times.

Back
Top