Genetic study The arrival of the Near Eastern ancestry in Central Italy predates the onset of the Roman Empire

I get the following figures @0.0108%:

46.9 pc Italy_Picene_Novilara_IA

31.2 pc Italy_Pesaro_LateAntiquity

21.9 pc Italy_Picene_Sirolo/Numana_IA
 
HereToLearn said:
I could be ignorant about this, I don't know how Southern Italians, born in Southern Italy, feel about Greece. If I may though, although I agree with Vitruvius here, I think I feel (with apparently less emotional attachment) what torzio feels about that matter.

After this I'm not elaborating further as I'm already off topic and I've pointed it out before. I don't think torzio has any disdain for Greece, but objectively to Northern Italians it may feel puzzling and sometimes even tiring to see their country ("their", as Italy is as much Northern Italian as Southern Italian) always paired with Greece on these forums. To them Greece is in fact a bit exotic, I use the term "exotic" in the best possible way of course, I promise not as a by-word for "non-European" as too often happens on anthrofora (it seems absurd to even need to verbalize this, but Greece is of course not a iota less "European" than Italy, or Belgium, or Slovakia or whatever). Hell in my genetic composition there may well be ancient or medieval Greeks and I'm totally happy and comfortable with that!

That being said, there could be a "disconnect" with a good part of the country when Southern Italians understandably and legitimately bring up a special relation (genetical, cultural or even emotional) with Greeks, and I know where that comes from. But please don't see malice in that.
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I resonate with your perspective. Observing from the outside, it appears that Northern Italians, for various reasons, lack the same affinity for Greeks and Greece that Southern Italians possess. Many from Southern Italy have a profound appreciation for their historical legacy and heritage, leading to genuine positive sentiments toward Greece. Notably, regions like Sicily, Apulia, Calabria, and Naples were once part of Magna Graecia long before their Romanization. Furthermore, some types of Greek dialects were still spoken in many communities in Calabria and Apulia until Mussolini's regime suppressed them to promote and reinforce unity in Italy. Ultimately, it seems that Northern Italians tend to feel a stronger connection to their northern neighbors than to Greeks.
 
i don't see any connection between italians and greeks, or french, germans etc
italy have mimimal connection with the french house of savoy, the royal family of italy

Too much fabricated chit-chat appears in regards to italy in eupedia

this link with ancient greeks needs to be revisited, making it more bigger than what it really was
 
mussolini moved italians around italy in large groups to ensure control of his centralised fascist doctrine

italy should have adopted the swiss canton system of goverment after WW2
 
real expert said:
Ultimately, it seems that Northern Italians tend to feel a stronger connection to their northern neighbors than to Greeks.
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To me, the Gotthard Tunnel (Galleria del San Gottardo) in Switzerland represents the real border between a familiar environment (similar to Northern Italy as also the closest French departments) and one I feel more exotic.

Driving from south you really get the impression that you are exiting Southern Europe and entering Northern Europe when you come out of that tunnel, and viceversa. Sometimes even the weather is different on the two ends :ROFLMAO:

There is also a seemingly strong (but in fact only superficial) connection of our North-East with coastal Slovenia and Croatia, but it is mostly a matter of environment and architecture rather than people nowadays.
 
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Jovialis said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1857532559833575571
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Do you think that's applicable to what the genetic findings are suggesting. That's whole cities reduced to nothing and too be basically be repopulated again by towns people from the outer regions suggests that the invading Germanics.really did a number on Italy.

There's has too be something more too this story whether it be slaves, ethnic replacement within Republican Rome by Greeks or migrants from the near east.

Surely they can tell apart various middle eastern populations from Greeks. Can we assume that there was at least some mixing down South between italics and Greeks in Magna graecia because if that's the case then the tests should reflect that.
 
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north-picene language might be what 2020 archeologists state as a trade language between...central-europe, veneti, liburnian and the picenes that traded with esch other for over 700 years
 
lynxbythetv said:
Do you think that's applicable to what the genetic findings are suggesting. That's whole cities reduced to nothing and too be basically be repopulated again by towns people from the outer regions suggests that the invading Germanics.really did a number on Italy.

There's has too be something more too this story whether it be slaves, ethnic replacement within Republican Rome by Greeks or migrants from the near east.

Surely they can tell apart various middle eastern populations from Greeks. Can we assume that there was at least some mixing down South between italics and Greeks in Magna graecia because if that's the case then the tests should reflect that.
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Italy had the largest cities in the world during the imperial era. It took astounding feats of engineering and military dominance to secure and transport the resources necessary to sustain these massive city populations. Grain was imported from Egypt and sold at below market value and water was piped through numerous aqueducts which could be easily damaged or collapsed by invading armies if they were not defended. These populations lived in extremely tight quarters and disease spread rampantly as well. Even assuming that no major urban population collapse occurs, what you're failing to realize is that urban populations both today and historically have been population sinks due to their low fertility. They are sustained by immigration emanating from rural areas meaning there is a constant genetic turnover associated with urban populations. This notion is not misfounded. The genetic history tells us that these later immigrants were coming from northern Italy, starting in late antiquity.

And yes, the Magna Graecian Greeks most certainly did leave a large impact on the southern Italian genetic structure. There's no doubt about this as things stand.
 
magna graecia does not include the adriatic sea area...

does it include corsica or french greek cities ??
 
torzio said:
i don't see any connection between italians and greeks, or french, germans etc
italy have mimimal connection with the french house of savoy, the royal family of italy

Too much fabricated chit-chat appears in regards to italy in eupedia

this link with ancient greeks needs to be revisited, making it more bigger than what it really was
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You live in Australia so which group do you find close to Italians ?
 
Vitruvius said:
Italy had the largest cities in the world during the imperial era. It took astounding feats of engineering and military dominance to secure and transport the resources necessary to sustain these massive city populations. Grain was imported from Egypt and sold at below market value and water was piped through numerous aqueducts which could be easily damaged or collapsed by invading armies if they were not defended. These populations lived in extremely tight quarters and disease spread rampantly as well. Even assuming that no major urban population collapse occurs, what you're failing to realize is that urban populations both today and historically have been population sinks due to their low fertility. They are sustained by immigration emanating from rural areas meaning there is a constant genetic turnover associated with urban populations. This notion is not misfounded. The genetic history tells us that these later immigrants were coming from northern Italy, starting in late antiquity.

And yes, the Magna Graecian Greeks most certainly did leave a large impact on the southern Italian genetic structure. There's no doubt about this as things stand.
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"And yes, the Magna Graecian Greeks most certainly did leave a large impact on the southern Italian genetic structure. There's no doubt about this as things stand."

Proof it.

Beginning in the 8th century BC, Greeks arrived in Italy and founded cities along the coast of southern Italy and eastern Sicily, which became known as Magna Graecia ("Greater Greece"). The Greeks were frequently at war with the native Italic tribes, but nonetheless managed to Hellenize and assimilate a good portion of the indigenous population located along eastern Sicily and the Southern coasts of the Italian mainland.According to Beloch the number of Greek citizens in south Italy at its greatest extent reached only 80,000–90,000, while the local people subjected by the Greeks were between 400,000 and 600,000. By the 4th and 3rd century BC, Greek power in Italy was challenged and began to decline, and many Greeks were pushed out of peninsular Italy by the native Oscan, Brutti and Lucani tribes.

I read the census book of Beloch https://archive.org/details/diebevlkerungde00belogoog/mode/2up which looks legit. So how can a greek minority leave a "large impact" on southern italians?
 
Misericordia117 said:
"And yes, the Magna Graecian Greeks most certainly did leave a large impact on the southern Italian genetic structure. There's no doubt about this as things stand."

Proof it.

Beginning in the 8th century BC, Greeks arrived in Italy and founded cities along the coast of southern Italy and eastern Sicily, which became known as Magna Graecia ("Greater Greece"). The Greeks were frequently at war with the native Italic tribes, but nonetheless managed to Hellenize and assimilate a good portion of the indigenous population located along eastern Sicily and the Southern coasts of the Italian mainland.According to Beloch the number of Greek citizens in south Italy at its greatest extent reached only 80,000–90,000, while the local people subjected by the Greeks were between 400,000 and 600,000. By the 4th and 3rd century BC, Greek power in Italy was challenged and began to decline, and many Greeks were pushed out of peninsular Italy by the native Oscan, Brutti and Lucani tribes.

I read the census book of Beloch https://archive.org/details/diebevlkerungde00belogoog/mode/2up which looks legit. So how can a greek minority leave a "large impact" on southern italians?
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Beloch's is a book from 1886. I deeply doubt that it is entirely reliable.
 
Pax Augusta said:
Beloch's is a book from 1886. I deeply doubt that it is entirely reliable.
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Still used very often today since it's considered "accurate" together with Brunt. Used for example here by Scheidel 1999 https://www.persee.fr/doc/topoi_1161-9473_1999_num_9_1_1808

It's about the foreign slave population and how much it supposedly affected the italian Genepool.

At the end Scheidel asks the question, what happened to the slave population. Either they were not numerous as always claimed or they "dissappeared". Basically what the Genetic "Studies" also are claiming during the late antiquity. That the near eastern component went away and more "italian" input were introduced. Wars, Epidemics and probably the replacement with rural living native Italic people moving to the destroyed cities. I read somewhere, that the Ostrogoths after conquering the cities of Italy slayed the civilian male population (maybe just maybe the descendants of the "many" non italian foreigners etc) and then inviting other population to resettle the new conquered cities.

But i am distracting. My point is, that Brunt and Belochs calculations are still used today.
 
Here we go more of this slave population affecting the Genepool, hmmmmmm? Crypto--?
 
Misericordia117 said:
"And yes, the Magna Graecian Greeks most certainly did leave a large impact on the southern Italian genetic structure. There's no doubt about this as things stand."

Proof it.

Beginning in the 8th century BC, Greeks arrived in Italy and founded cities along the coast of southern Italy and eastern Sicily, which became known as Magna Graecia ("Greater Greece"). The Greeks were frequently at war with the native Italic tribes, but nonetheless managed to Hellenize and assimilate a good portion of the indigenous population located along eastern Sicily and the Southern coasts of the Italian mainland.According to Beloch the number of Greek citizens in south Italy at its greatest extent reached only 80,000–90,000, while the local people subjected by the Greeks were between 400,000 and 600,000. By the 4th and 3rd century BC, Greek power in Italy was challenged and began to decline, and many Greeks were pushed out of peninsular Italy by the native Oscan, Brutti and Lucani tribes.

I read the census book of Beloch https://archive.org/details/diebevlkerungde00belogoog/mode/2up which looks legit. So how can a greek minority leave a "large impact" on southern italians?
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The proof is in the fact that the Italic Oenotrian genetic norms of the early iron age were wholeheartedly replaced with LBA Greek genetic norms which remains permanent to this day.
 
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