The Celts of Iberia

[Reixach]

Por cierto Irlanda es como Espa?a solo le falta el mediterraneo..., mas de un irlandes daria su vida por tenerlo mas cerca. La composicon genetica de un pais es reflejo de su situacion geografica e historica, ?que se espera de Espa?a? ?que sea como Dinamarca, como Rusia, como Iran, como Corea? Espa?a es una pais mediterraneo, occidental, muy influenciado por centroeuropa, y tambien por la cultura musulmana y judia, y sus genes son reflejo de todo eso, no hay mas.
Intentar buscar la dispersion genetica de los celtas de La Tene es ampliamente y rematadamente absurdo, ya que si algo se caracteriza esa cultura es por el mestizaje cultural y genetico del neolitico indoeuropeo con las raices paleoliticas de Europa, partiendo de la idea de que nada es puro y menos en la especie humana, ver las diferencias es como buscar una aguja en un pajar, en todos los europeos hay algo de esa cultura de La Tene, desde un punto de vista cultural y genetico.

 

[^ lynx ^]

 

[LeBrok]

I'm pretty sure some people will claim that the camera flash was too strong, lol.
Are you sure they are not a soccer team of kids of polish emigrants?

 

[Wilhelm]

Ireland has also 25% of Germanic, due to brittish emigrations.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I'm pretty sure some people will claim that the camera flash was too strong, lol.
Are you sure they are not a soccer team of kids of polish emigrants?

Oh those poor lost souls pushing the Spanish gypsy stereotype...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Las raices celtas hay que verlo como algo cultural y no genetico, aunque es curioso que alguien cuestione lo europeo que es Espa�a cuando seguramente sea el pais que mejor representa las raices geneticas de toda europa occidental, de Espa�a salieron los haplogrupos m�s representativos de buena parte de Europa, no entiendo porqu� se quiere cuestionar lo europeo que es Espa�a. Espa�a seguramente sea el pa�s que tiene relacion, debido a su situaci�n geografica e historica, al mismo tiempo, con todos los paises de europa central y occidental, Espa�a se parece a Italia y a centroeuropa pero tambi�n a Irlanda, Inglaterra, Francia... Espa�a es una pais interesante, es como si fuera una especie del continente europeo en miniatura, en �l se pueden apreciar todos los acontecimientos hist�ricos ocurridos tanto en centroeuropa, en el mediterraneo y en la europa occidental, y eso, para la gente que vive en Espa�a, es un lujo... por no hablar del clima que es una maravilla. Si Grecia es el pais que mejor representa la cultura oriental de Europa y es uno de los pilares de la cultura europea, Espa�a es sin duda otro de sus pilares y el que mejor representa, al mismo tiempo, la europa occidental, centroeuropea y el mediterraneo, y es m�s diria que Espa�a es el que mejor representa eso que se llama la "cultura occidental", si viniese un extraterrestre y preguntara que es eso de la cultura occidental la mejor forma de explicarlo seria invitarlo a Espa�a y que se pasease por el museo del Prado y que de paso disfrutara de como en un mismo pais han tenido esplendor la cultura judia, la musulmana y la cristiana, solo comparable a la ciudad de Jerusalen. Es curioso, que a fecha de hoy, se siga cuestionando lo incuestionable... cuestionar lo celtico que es Espa�a es absurdo, ridiculo, una perdida de tiempo, es celtico hasta la medula, y no lo digo yo, de lo celtico que era Espa�a ha quedado reflejado en numerosos textos antiguos griegos y romanos, asi como los hallazgos arqueologicos.

Iberia formed the genetic substratum of Western Europe, especially in the Atlantic Fringe. Also, despite centuries of a shifting Muslim presence in both Spain and Portugal, neither country has significant Middle Eastern / Arabic genetic markers. Spain and Portugal are majority Celtic - possibly more than two-thirds, considering the high level of confirmed settlement. Western Mediterranean influences are found mainly in the south and south east. The Eastern Mediterranean impact was quite minimal.

 

[^ lynx ^]

Meah, I just wanted to have a laugh at Vallicanus but apparently he isn't around the forum anymore. :embarassed:

Please guys continue with your debate about celts it was very interesting.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Meah, I just wanted to have a laugh at Vallicanus but apparently he isn't around the forum anymore. :embarassed:
Please guys continue with your debate about celts it was very interesting.

Good one!

 

[LeBrok]

Wilhelm, can you give us a link to the charts or explanation what they mean? I don't understand them. I'm seeing them first time.
Thanks

 

[Heber]

Of course. It's not surprising that Iberia should have the highest settlement saturation of (Proto-)Celtic people in Europe, probably along with Ireland and Scotland. Agriculture and domestication reached the Western fringe of Europe last (except for the little known La Almagra culture in Andalusia), so its population density must have been lower when the agricultural and bronze-age Indo-European Italo-Celts invaded Europe 4500 years ago. This also explains why R1b is so much higher than the older I2 in Iberia.

Maciamo,
Thanks for your excellent history of R1b.
If the western fringe of Europe was the last to receive the agricultural package, how do we explain the early presence of Megalitic structures in these regions including:

Carrowmore (Ireland) 5,400 BC
Evora (Portugal 5,000 BC
Carnac (Brittany) 4,000 BC
Ceide Fields (Ireland) 3,500 BC (earliest known field system)
Newgrange (Ireland) 3,000 BC
Stonehenge (England) 2,500 BC

Given their great navigational skills, does this not support the Iberia - Ireland migration route.
What is your opinion on their Haplogroups.
Thanks,
Gerard

 

[Maciamo]

Since genetics seem to be the new religion when it comes to explain history, here is a genetic map from the Gene Expression blog:

http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/08/genetic-map-of-europe-again.php
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/09/geography-and-genetic-structure-in.html

Iberians have their own cluster, and are not really close to the Irish... Y-DNA has its limits.

The problem with these autosomal studies is that one will show a certain pattern, and another a quite different one. These graphs usually use a handful of SNP's, maybe a few hundreds, thousands, or at best a million or so. As we have 3 billion base pairs in our DNA sequence, you can understand how irrelevant such studies are. People who make these graphs usually try to find SNP's that can be arranged in a pattern that looks like a map of the region studied. There is no reason that genes should look like a map of Europe when the data is put in a 2-axis graph. That's entertaining but that's it.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo,
Thanks for your excellent history of R1b.
If the western fringe of Europe was the last to receive the agricultural package, how do we explain the early presence of Megalitic structures in these regions including:
Carrowmore (Ireland) 5,400 BC
Evora (Portugal 5,000 BC
Carnac (Brittany) 4,000 BC
Ceide Fields (Ireland) 3,500 BC (earliest known field system)
Newgrange (Ireland) 3,000 BC
Stonehenge (England) 2,500 BC
Given their great navigational skills, does this not support the Iberia - Ireland migration route.
What is your opinion on their Haplogroups.
Thanks,
Gerard

Agriculture reached Iberia around 6,000-5,500 BCE. This matches perfectly with the rise of the Megalithic culture. But that gave less than 2,000 years to Iberians to grow a sufficient population to resist effectively the Indo-Europeans. The Balkans, on the contrary, had had fortified cities since 8,000 BCE, and undeniably had a much denser population density. That's why R1b people only passed through the region and looked for a more sparsely land on which to settle.

 

[Wilhelm]

I'm pretty sure some people will claim that the camera flash was too strong, lol.
Are you sure they are not a soccer team of kids of polish emigrants?

Polish immigrants LOL
They are from Andalusia, in south Spain

 

[Wilhelm]

Wilhelm, can you give us a link to the charts or explanation what they mean? I don't understand them. I'm seeing them first time.
Thanks

Source : Price AL, Butler J, Patterson N, Capelli C, Pascali VL, et al. (2008) Discerning the Ancestry of European Americans in Genetic Association Studies. PLoS Genet 4(1): e236. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0030236

Explanation
"For example [4] studied the ancestry of European Americans using 583 SNP markers. The authors determined that the major feature of European American variation is clinal along a Southeast-Northwest axis, a finding which confirms the above-mentioned work of Cavalli-Sforza [1] based on classical markers. The second most noteworthy feature separates Southeast Europeans from Ashkenazi Jews.

 

[^ lynx ^]

First pic: Irish football team.
Second pic: Junior basketball team from Andalusia.
Third pic: Portugal national roller-hockey team u-17.

 

[Smertrius]

Nobody said spaniards are like the Irish :startled:

I was refering to this

It's not surprising that Iberia should have the highest settlement saturation of (Proto-)Celtic people in Europe, probably along with Ireland and Scotland.

and to Koch's Atlantic Celts theory.

 

[Smertrius]

The problem with these autosomal studies is that one will show a certain pattern, and another a quite different one. These graphs usually use a handful of SNP's, maybe a few hundreds, thousands, or at best a million or so. As we have 3 billion base pairs in our DNA sequence, you can understand how irrelevant such studies are. People who make these graphs usually try to find SNP's that can be arranged in a pattern that looks like a map of the region studied. There is no reason that genes should look like a map of Europe when the data is put in a 2-axis graph. That's entertaining but that's it.

Y-DNA is not that relevant either.

Let's suppose that some R1b people from region A move to region B, kill the men and have children with their women, replacing local Y-DNA. A new R1b people is formed in region B.
After a while people from region B invade region C, same story, another R1b people is formed in region C, that new C people then move to region D, etc...

A and D will share the same Y-DNA but A will only represent 1/8 of D's ancestry.

 

[Wilhelm]

I repeat again , Ireland has about 25% of Germanic.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The problem with these autosomal studies is that one will show a certain pattern, and another a quite different one. These graphs usually use a handful of SNP's, maybe a few hundreds, thousands, or at best a million or so. As we have 3 billion base pairs in our DNA sequence, you can understand how irrelevant such studies are. People who make these graphs usually try to find SNP's that can be arranged in a pattern that looks like a map of the region studied. There is no reason that genes should look like a map of Europe when the data is put in a 2-axis graph. That's entertaining but that's it.

I agree. Excellent points...

 

[Maciamo]

Y-DNA is not that relevant either.
Let's suppose that some R1b people from region A move to region B, kill the men and have children with their women, replacing local Y-DNA. A new R1b people is formed in region B.
After a while people from region B invade region C, same story, another R1b people is formed in region C, that new C people then move to region D, etc...
A and D will share the same Y-DNA but A will only represent 1/8 of D's ancestry.

I know. That's why we should try harder to elucidate the origin of mtDNA subclades. So far, I estimate that at least H1, H3, U5 and V are "native" European subclades, predating the Neolithic wave from the Near East. In Spain these 4 clades represent about 40% of the lineages. In Ireland it is 30%. In contrast, in Greece it is barely above 5%. They are probably other Paleolithic European subclades, though.

I estimate that most of the subclades of mtDNA J and T, and a few (yet undetermined) H subclades came to Europe with the Neolithic farmers, and other migrations from Middle East (Etruscans, Phoenicians). The harder question is just how many female lineages arrived with the Indo-Europeans, and which ones. I am sure there must have been subclades of H, and probably a good deal of U3 and U4, and possibly K, W and X as well. But that's still too vague. The problem is that there are too few large-scale mtDNA studies, and almost none of them take deep subclades into account.