The genetic origin of Daunians

[Jovialis]

Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.

 

[torzio]

Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.

Seems like ancient Daunians should be C7 and as they moved further south into the heel absorbed Italic tribes who where C6 ..............only explanation unless you want to say the paper is wrong

 

[Jovialis]

Seems like ancient Daunians should be C7 and as they moved further south into the heel absorbed Italic tribes who where C6 ..............only explanation unless you want to say the paper is wrong

They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.

 

[Jovialis]

They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.

 

[torzio]

They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.

The paper says affinity with iron-age Croatians ..................it does not say affinity with iron-age Bosnians or Montenegrians

I think we should check sample R1 and see if she , who was born in Liburnia and died in Picene Marche is linked with any of these samples

 

[Jovialis]

The paper says affinity with iron-age Croatians ..................it does not say affinity with iron-age Bosnians or Montenegrians

I think we should check sample R1 and see if she , who was born in Liburnia and died in Picene Marche is linked with any of these samples

I am just going by the PCA of the paper, where does Croatian IA plot? I don't see it in the PCA.

 

[Hawk]

I think E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians after this.

It's likely Thracian and possibly Greek marker. I think it should match well the spread of cremation burials in Balkans during Late Bronze Age to Iron Age.

 

[torzio]

I think E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians after this.

It's likely Thracian and possibly Greek marker. I think it should match well the spread of cremation burials in Balkans during Late Bronze Age to Iron Age.

you have some E-V13 in these croatian ( liburnian -dalmatian areas )


R1a-M17 ... 31%
I2a-Y3120 ... 25%
R1b ... 16%
J2 ... 12%
G2a-P15 ... 7%
E1b-V13 ... 4%

and other 4% is T, L, N and I1

 

[Jovialis]

@Torzio,

Could you cite the part of the paper that says they have an affinity to Croatian IA as well? I have only had a chance to skim through it. Don't mean to be lazy, but I have a lot of personal tasks to do at the moment. I mean to read the paper in full later tonight.

On the PCA they appear to be south of Iberians, and west of Central and Southern Italy.

 

[torzio]

@Torzio,

Could you cite the part of the paper that says they have an affinity to Croatian IA as well? I have only had a chance to skim through it. Don't mean to be lazy, but I have a lot of personal tasks to do at the moment. I mean to read the paper in full later tonight.

On the PCA they appear to be south of Iberians, and west of Central and Southern Italy.

see post #18

 

[blevins13]

I think E-V13 has nothing to do with Illyrians after this.

It's likely Thracian and possibly Greek marker. I think it should match well the spread of cremation burials in Balkans during Late Bronze Age to Iron Age.

How it can be Greek if expanded in Iron Age from Danubian Basin.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Jovialis]

see post #18

Thanks for that, looks like they are genetically "south" of Italy_IA_Republic (highlighted inside the purple square). Indeed, they have an affinity to them, as well as Croatia_IA, but they are still to the direct "west: of Central and Southern Italy. In fact, together, both Italy_IA_Republic, and IA Apulia span the Italian peninsula, genetically form North to South, however, they are to the "West" of the modern population.


R1 is the one I circled to the east of Italy_IA_Republic, it is considered a so-called outlier here.


In fact, some of the more southern IA apulian samples would fit right in with the so-call Latin outlier, R437.

 

[Jovialis]

257 The new genomic sequences Daunian samples reveal that Iron Age (pre-Imperial)
258 Southern Italy (Apulia) can be placed within a Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum that stretches
from Crete (Minoans25) and the Levant (Sea People22,24 259 ) to the Republican Rome and the Iberian
Peninsula6
260 , mainly composed by AN and IN/CHG genetic features with the addition of WHG and
261 Steppe-related influences in Continental Italy. P

Checking the citation here 22 and 24, it is clear that Levant (Sea People) was reference to the Philistine ASH068, who clusters with Mycenaeans, as well as some of the more southernly IA_Apulians.


This is basically what I am saying above. The Apulian_IA is between the IA_Latins & Etruscans, Minoans, Philistines, etc. Which is genetically "west" of modern Italy from North to South. This is what is meant by "Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum"

 

[torzio]

Thanks for that, looks like they are genetically "south" of Italy_IA_Republic (highlighted inside the purple square). Indeed, they have an affinity to them, as well as Croatia_IA, but they are still to the direct "west: of Central and Southern Italy. In fact, together, both Italy_IA_Republic, and IA Apulia span the Italian peninsula, genetically form North to South, however, they are to the "West" of the modern population.


R1 is the one I circled to the east of Italy_IA_Republic, it is considered a so-called outlier here.


In fact, some of the more southern IA apulian samples would fit right in with the so-call Latin outlier, R437.

thanks

The paper does say
we know that they were
mainly farmers, animal breeders, horsemen and maritime traders with an established trade network
extending across the sea with Illyrian tribes8–10. A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance,
they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions


We extracted DNA from 34 human skeletal remains


sequencing runs were merged resulting in 16 individuals for genome-wide analysis:


Out of those 16 individuals, we selected 10 individuals based on their proximity within the
principal component analysis (PCA) space (Figure 1C) for radiocarbon dating and estimated their
age between 1157 and 275 calBCE with a median date of 521 calBCE

.............................

 

[Jovialis]

Here I circled the location of R437 and R850, the two Latin "outliers".

R437 plots right next to the IA Apulian ORDO01

 

[torzio]

Checking the citation here 22 and 24, it is clear that Levant (Sea People) was reference to the Philistine ASH068, who clusters with Mycenaeans, as well as some of the more southernly IA_Apulians.


This is basically what I am saying above. The Apulian_IA is between the IA_Latins & Etruscans, Minoans, Philistines, etc. Which is genetically "west" of modern Italy from North to South. This is what is meant by "Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum"

as of 2 years ago Israeli archeologists state Philistines originate from Eastern Crete ................they are not from the Levant


this paper says
A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance,
they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions

 

[torzio]

Here I circled the location of R437 and R850, the two Latin "outliers".

R437 plots right next to the IA Apulian ORDO01

is VK538 .....from Foggia ...L1a13ba Ydna close to any of these?

 

[Jovialis]

Here are the Imperial samples used in the PCA. The clear overlap of modern Apulia with C6, is evident. Considering, R437 another Iron Age sample, clusters closely with ORD001, reasserts the notion that this kind of ancestry existed in Italy prior to the arrival of Imperial era immigrants.

 

[Jovialis]

as of 2 years ago Israeli archeologists state Philistines originate from Eastern Crete ................they are not from the Levant


the paper say
A fascinating aspect of this population, as opposed
to their neighbours in Apulia, was their tenacious resistance to external influences. For instance,
they did not acquire either social or cultural Hellenic elements and no Greek alphabet inscriptions

Indeed, ASH068 was the only true Philistine (Sea People), who clustered with Myceneans. The others were hybrids, or subjugated Levantines.

 

[Jovialis]

Here are the Imperial samples used in the PCA. The clear overlap of modern Apulia with C6, is evident. Considering, R437 another Iron Age sample, clusters closely with ORD001, reasserts the notion that this kind of ancestry existed in Italy prior to the arrival of Imperial era immigrants.

Considering that they resisted outside influences also makes me wonder if the Imperial era C6 cohort was more representative of the neighboring people. Once the Romans came in, these Daunians were probably mixed out of existence by other native people and Greek colonists, who were representative of C6.