The Iberian-Illyrian connection

Haliþs

Haliþs

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Greetings all!

What are your thoughts about the connection between modern Iberian populations and ancient Illyrians/Pannonians? How can it be explained?

To contextualize, my ancestry is mostly Iberian (Portuguese) and these are my results in My True Ancestry:
Illyrian (7.114)
Frank + Illyrian (8.694)
Frank + Pannonian (9.637)
Frank + Scordisci (9.828)
Frank + Cherusci (10.83)
Frank (10.85)
Pannonian (11.26)
Scordisci (11.39)
Cherusci (11.99)

And I've seen similar results in other Iberian or majorly Iberian people. Also, these are the closest ancient groups to modern Galicians, for example, according to My True Ancestry:

1. *Pannonian (6.652)
2. Cenomani + Illyrian (5.722)
3. Cenomani + Scordisci (5.912)
4. Cenomani + Pannonian (6.349)
5. Pannonian (6.652)
6. Gallo-Roman (6.952)
7. Cenomani + Gallo-Roman (7.323)
8. Scordisci (7.391)
9. Illyrian (8.163)
10. Cenomani (9.2)

My question is: has any research been made about this subject? Is it a distortion or an error on My True Ancestry database? Are there historical hypothesis about this connection? As of now, the only answer that comes to my mind are in the Visigoth migrations. Prior to reaching Iberia, the Visigoths settled for some time in the Balkans and, before the sacking of Rome, specifically in Illyria/Pannonia. They possibly mixed with the local populations and/or were accompanied by groups of native Pannonians during the migrations. However, that would not justify the Illyrians and Pannonians being the closest populations to modern Iberians, of course.

Well... any thoughts?
 
Coincidentally similar ancestral components in coincidentally similar amounts?

I'm Northern Italian and I also had Illyrian as closest in some of those calculators.
 
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures

"...however, it is generally believed that around 2000 BC the Ligurians occupied a much larger area, extending as far as what is today Catalonia (in the north-eastern corner of the Iberian Peninsula)."

"Thucydides (5th century BC) speaks of the Ligures having expelled the Sicanians, an Iberian tribe, from the banks of the river Sicanus, in Iberia."

"In the 19th century, the origins of the Ligures drew renewed attention from scholars. Amédée Thierry, a French historian and journalist, linked them to the Iberians."

"It was believed that a "Ligurian-Sicanian" culture occupied a wide area of southern Europe, stretching from Liguria to Sicily and Iberia."


And I have a part of my DNA related to northern Italy and as such to the Illyrians


1738250265059.png
 
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MTA gives you proxy populations, meaning that what you are seeing is not your ancestral components but similar populations that can be used to recreate your own admixture. MTA does not state that clear from what I see so many people can be mislead by their absurd models. Overall, I think MTA are kind of scam for also claming exclussive connections between their users and ancient samples, which is absurd in many ways, and I’ve seen how they manipulate the number of centimorgans to give you impression of close connection to ancient individuals while the actual number of centimorgans is way lower.
 
Haliþs said:
Greetings all!

What are your thoughts about the connection between modern Iberian populations and ancient Illyrians/Pannonians? How can it be explained?

To contextualize, my ancestry is mostly Iberian (Portuguese) and these are my results in My True Ancestry:
Illyrian (7.114)
Frank + Illyrian (8.694)
Frank + Pannonian (9.637)
Frank + Scordisci (9.828)
Frank + Cherusci (10.83)
Frank (10.85)
Pannonian (11.26)
Scordisci (11.39)
Cherusci (11.99)

And I've seen similar results in other Iberian or majorly Iberian people. Also, these are the closest ancient groups to modern Galicians, for example, according to My True Ancestry:

1. *Pannonian (6.652)
2. Cenomani + Illyrian (5.722)
3. Cenomani + Scordisci (5.912)
4. Cenomani + Pannonian (6.349)
5. Pannonian (6.652)
6. Gallo-Roman (6.952)
7. Cenomani + Gallo-Roman (7.323)
8. Scordisci (7.391)
9. Illyrian (8.163)
10. Cenomani (9.2)

My question is: has any research been made about this subject? Is it a distortion or an error on My True Ancestry database? Are there historical hypothesis about this connection? As of now, the only answer that comes to my mind are in the Visigoth migrations. Prior to reaching Iberia, the Visigoths settled for some time in the Balkans and, before the sacking of Rome, specifically in Illyria/Pannonia. They possibly mixed with the local populations and/or were accompanied by groups of native Pannonians during the migrations. However, that would not justify the Illyrians and Pannonians being the closest populations to modern Iberians, of course.

Well... any thoughts?
Click to expand...
Roman conquest of Iberia. Illyrians were a key part of the Roman army, probably the most important part of it.
 
Possibly also because Illyrians during the Iron Age in Croatia were plotting where modern Iberians plot, however the original or earliest Illyrian profile was probably more like Northern Italy / Tuscany which we see in the Vucedol R-Z2103 sample of the Bronze Age and the Bronze Age samples from Albania and Macedonia, but during the Iron Age there becomes an increasing shift towards the West or North-West, i.e, towards modern Iberia, possibly due to admixture from neighboring Italic tribes has been explained as one possible reason. Italics were plotting where modern Iberians plot and Ancient Iberians I believe were plotting just west of Italic tribes. So you get these overlaps between Southern Europe. There has also been contact , especially with the spread of the Cetina culture and Ancient Greek cultures there was a contact between Illyrians, Italic tribes and Greek tribes. Also the Roman era.
 
The MTA's labeling of ancient samples does not follow the original pattern adopted by the respective academic studies. The labels of Proto-Illyrians, Illyrians, Pannonians for ancient samples from the Balkans have much more of a commercial appeal than a scientific one. It is much cooler to call an individual a Proto-Illyrian from the Bronze Age than to simply adopt the original label of Balcans_BA, Croatia_BA, for example, trying to explain how this individual plot in a PCA with modern and ancient people.
e4pYxGF.png

1. Roman Soldier Germany
300 AD - Genetic Distance: 6.899 - FN_2
Top 99 % match vs all users


2. Elite Celtic Burial Germany Magdalenenberg Villingen-Schweningen
530 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.169 - MBG004
Top 99 % match vs all users


3. Iron Age Hillfort Croatia Kriz Brdovecki Sava Valley
470 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.61 - I5726
Top 99 % match vs all users


4. Late Roman Era Miroico Portugal
420 AD - Genetic Distance: 7.675 - R10506
Top 99 % match vs all users


5. Lombard Era Collegno Northern Italy
580 AD - Genetic Distance: 7.683 - COL_035b
Top 99 % match vs all users


6. Iron Age Smiljan Croatia
840 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.722 - I23911
Top 99 % match vs all users


7. Bronze Age Obrezje Slovenia
1350 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.332 - I5695
Top 99 % match vs all users


8. Gallo-Roman Lombard Grave
580 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.629 - CL94
Top 99 % match vs all users


9. Iron Age Hillfort Croatia Kriz Brdovecki Sava Valley
580 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.69 - I5725
Top 99 % match vs all users


10. Iron Age Hillfort Croatia Kriz Brdovecki Sava Valley
290 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.742 - I5724
Top 99 % match vs all users


11. Merovingian Grave North Rhine-Westphalia Germany Alt-Inden
600 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.815 - IND006
Top 98 % match vs all users


12. Lombard Era Collegno Northern Italy
580 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.938 - COL_035x
Top 98 % match vs all users


13. Early Iron Slovenia Dolge Njive Hill Fort
600 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.091 - I5685
Top 98 % match vs all users


14. Lombard Collegno Northern Italy
580 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.139 - COL_130
Top 98 % match vs all users


15. Dark Ages Italy Bardonecchia
650 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.172 - Bard_T11
Top 99 % match vs all users


16. Proto-Illyrian Bronze Age Croatia Bezdanjaca Cave
1150 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.173 - I18724
Top 99 % match vs all users


17. Illyrian Slovenia
300 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.253 - I5692
Top 99 % match vs all users


18. Medieval Hungary Carolingian Empire Zalavar Varsziget
850 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.41 - AHS13
Top 99 % match vs all users


19. Migration Period Yorkshire Ribblesdale Selside Grike
400 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.671 - S3056
Top 99 % match vs all users


20. Iron Age Hillfort Croatia Kriz Brdovecki Sava Valley
450 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.677 - I5723
Top 98 % match vs all users


21. Christopher Corvinus Hunyadi Dynasty
1506 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.702 - CKM
Top 98 % match vs all users


22. Etruscan Civitavecchia
650 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.714 - R474
Top 99 % match vs all users


23. Pannonian Hill Fort mala Metaljka Croatia
490 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.763 - I24882
Top 98 % match vs all users


24. Iron Age Slovenia
500 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.777 - I5698
Top 99 % match vs all users


25. Dark Ages Palazzo della Cancelleria Italy
465 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.778 - R1223
Top 98 % match vs all users


26. Visigoth Iberian Girona
550 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.859 - I12034
Top 99 % match vs all users


27. Late Medieval Belgium St. Rombouts
1677 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.902 - STR140d
Top 98 % match vs all users


28. Bronze Age Italy Grotta Delle Mura
1063 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.902 - NEO806
Top 99 % match vs all users


29. Imperial Rome Mausoleo Augusto
500 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.945 - R33
Top 98 % match vs all users


30. Early Medieval Andalusia
760 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.948 - I3585
Top 99 % match vs all users


31. Germano-Illyrian Velika Gruda Montenegro
1225 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.964 - I14501
Top 99 % match vs all users
Click to expand...
 
The reasons for this connection must be sought further back in time, in the Neolithic period. The most significant genetic component of Southern Europeans is that of Early European Farmer. And the culture that spread most of this ancestry in that region was the Cardial pottery culture.
The Cardial culture spread EEF ancestry along the Mediterranean coast, influencing regions such as the Balkans and the Adriatic Coast, Italy and the Iberian Peninsula.
So, the main reason for this Iberian-Illyrian connection must be found in that culture. The genetic similarities between the ancient Illyrians, Pannonians, and modern Iberians should derive essentially from the shared ancestry of these neolithic migrations.

en.wikipedia.org

Cardium pottery - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

Bronze Age Indo-European migrations, such as Bell Beakers, may also explain, although to a lesser degree, this shared genetic ancestry.
 
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