Immigration The periphery of Islam fundamentalism

[bicicleur 2]

For those who think Islamic fundamentalism is a marginal phenomenon amongst some desperate and mentally ill people there is this :

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/s...waechter-terrorisieren-berliner/20018170.html

Islamic moral police in Hamburg.
Chechen Islamists harrasing mainly other Chechens on the street who are trying to integrate themselves in the German community and who are not following strict Koran rule. They are seen as traitors of Islam. For the same reason Chechen women are not allowed any contact with western men, they are property of the Islamic community.

Hamburg is not an exception.
Similar groups are operating in almost every major west-European city.

 

[LeBrok]

This shouldn't be allowed to exist. On other hand, I'm not aware of any cultural police in Canada or US. It might be the case that Europe allowed too many religious fundamentalists in.

Was it UK who officially implicated, couple of weeks ago, Saudi Arabia in spreading religious intolerance and ideology of hate? A very positive step. This is manly ideological war and should be engaged at its source.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I can only say that for 50 years the Walloon socialists have been far to leniant with Maghreb immigrants in Brussels.
They stimulated such immigration to Brussels because they taught it would bring them loyal voters.
They didn't persecute their crimes and when they did, the judges were to understanding 'because these people come from a discriminated area with little chances'.
Parents don't stimulate their children to go to school and have the ambition to get a good job.
They are told that they won't get a job because of discrimination and that crime is rewarding.
It became a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Now it is a fertile recruiting area for Islam fundamentalists.

 

[OkTex]

This shouldn't be allowed to exist. On other hand, I'm not aware of any cultural police in Canada or US. It might be the case that Europe allowed too many religious fundamentalists in.

Was it UK who officially implicated, couple of weeks ago, Saudi Arabia in spreading religious intolerance and ideology of hate? A very positive step. This is manly ideological war and should be engaged at its source.

Yes...in US, fundamentalist Islamic Somalis in Minneapolis harass other
Somalis who attempt to integrate into American society!

 

[Yetos]

For those who think Islamic fundamentalism is a marginal phenomenon amongst some desperate and mentally ill people there is this :

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/s...waechter-terrorisieren-berliner/20018170.html

Islamic moral police in Hamburg.
Chechen Islamists harrasing mainly other Chechens on the street who are trying to integrate themselves in the German community and who are not following strict Koran rule. They are seen as traitors of Islam. For the same reason Chechen women are not allowed any contact with western men, they are property of the Islamic community.

Hamburg is not an exception.
Similar groups are operating in almost every major west-European city.

Same is happening here in Greece,

 

[IronSide]

They shouldn't be allowed to exist, disband them and expel anyone who attempts such folly.

In Saudi the new Crown Prince "probably" may try to disband the existing religious police, and "allegedly" do other liberal stuff, nothing is certain

If only we had Democracy ... but when I thought about this, knowing my people, they would elect two types : 1- tribal leaders with no government experience, because the are the leaders of their tribe (you dimwit .. duh) !!! 2- religious fundamentalists, because my people are incredibly stupid, they may even vote for the reenactment of the religious police, idiots.

They don't even know what democracy is, and when I explained it to them, they said that I want to be King !!!? and that I'm a traitor ... clueless barbarians.

 

[LeBrok]

They shouldn't be allowed to exist, disband them and expel anyone who attempts such folly.

In Saudi the new Crown Prince "probably" may try to disband the existing religious police, and "allegedly" do other liberal stuff, nothing is certain

If only we had Democracy ... but when I thought about this, knowing my people, they would elect two types : 1- tribal leaders with no government experience, because the are the leaders of their tribe (you dimwit .. duh) !!! 2- religious fundamentalists, because my people are incredibly stupid, they may even vote for the reenactment of the religious police, idiots.

They don't even know what democracy is, and when I explained it to them, they said that I want to be King !!!? and that I'm a traitor ... clueless barbarians.

Perhaps start with parliamentary monarchy like in England, and many other european countries. People are too traditional to take their king or queen away at once. Even egalitarian France has spent 100 years going back and forth from monarchy to republic, till people got used to new system.

 

[IronSide]

Perhaps start with parliamentary monarchy like in England, and many other european countries. People are too traditional to take their king or queen away at once. Even egalitarian France has spent 100 years going back and forth from monarchy to republic, till people got used to new system.

Impossible, what you're describing is in effect right now in neighbouring Kuwait, a parliamentary Monarchy in name only, they do have an elected parliament, but nothing they say or do should the prince or Prime Minister (who is appointed by the Prince, and is usually from the ruling family) decide otherwise, they can do nothing, people tried in that country for real change but were imprisoned.

What made the Monarchies of Europe leave their absolute power was force, the force of revolution, if the Monarchies of Arabia "gave" people the right to vote, it can be taken away any time, because what given by them can be taken by them as well.

At least they offer stability, without monarchies tribes would compete for power. don't get me wrong I'm a republican I want a true democratic system and full human rights, but I don't know how, and I'm alone.

 

[Angela]

^^It must be very disheartening. So many times, when people have been given the power to vote they've either, as you say, elected tribal leaders or ultra fundamentalists.

Perhaps education is the key, and perhaps internet use, or radio broadcasts, something to open people's minds. Intense pressure also has to be brought to bear on Saudi to stop this funding of Wahabi schools. If they don't, it will come back to destroy them in the end.

As for the U.S., even with the small number of immigrants here, some of this has arrived. Just recently, two Pakistani doctors were prosecuted and sentenced to long prison terms for performing extreme female circumcision. They should have imprisoned the parents as well. More has to be done by the women in this country to fund shelters for women fleeing the kind of oppression that their parents are trying to still impose on them, but I doubt it will happen.

 

[LeBrok]

What made the Monarchies of Europe leave their absolute power was force, the force of revolution, if the Monarchies of Arabia "gave" people the right to vote, it can be taken away any time, because what given by them can be taken by them as well.

True, there always has to be disaster, recession, hunger to force people to do something, to try new way. Most people are complacent. A bit of danger and more work and something new involved, they won't try.

At least they offer stability, without monarchies tribes would compete for power. don't get me wrong I'm a republican I want a true democratic system and full human rights, but I don't know how, and I'm alone.

Did you think about emigrating to a western country?

 

[davef]

^^It must be very disheartening. So many times, when people have been given the power to vote they've either, as you say, elected tribal leaders or ultra fundamentalists.

Perhaps education is the key, and perhaps internet use, or radio broadcasts, something to open people's minds. Intense pressure also has to be brought to bear on Saudi to stop this funding of Wahabi schools. If they don't, it will come back to destroy them in the end.

As for the U.S., even with the small number of immigrants here, some of this has arrived. Just recently, two Pakistani doctors were prosecuted and sentenced to long prison terms for performing extreme female circumcision. They should have imprisoned the parents as well. More has to be done by the women in this country to fund shelters for women fleeing the kind of oppression that their parents are trying to still impose on them, but I doubt it will happen.

Nope. No funding for them. Funding for anyone who needs help has been rendered obsolete ever since Obama left. You may ask the current administration to assist Muslims, but be prepared to be the laughing stock of the White House (WHAT? You want my "hard earned" tax money to support the "terrorists"? Bah humbug!).

 

[IronSide]

True, there always has to be disaster, recession, hunger to force people to do something, to try new way. Most people are complacent. A bit of danger and more work and something new involved, they won't try.

Did you think about emigrating to a western country?

As if you don't have enough already LOL ... sorry bad joke.

I've never felt national pride, not for this place, but all my memories, all the people I know and love, all my friends and family are here, and I don't want to leave that.

I appreciate the invitation though, I've always admired the West, in its Civilization, its Human rights, its Scientific and technological achievements, its Economic progress and greatness. I have a wet dream in the back of my mind that one day, all the world would be like the West, truly the best of mankind.

 

[LeBrok]

As if you don't have enough already LOL ... sorry bad joke.

I've never felt national pride, not for this place, but all my memories, all the people I know and love, all my friends and family are here, and I don't want to leave that.

I appreciate the invitation though, I've always admired the West, in its Civilization, its Human rights, its Scientific and technological achievements, its Economic progress and greatness. I have a wet dream in the back of my mind that one day, all the world would be like the West, truly the best of mankind.

My dream too.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Impossible, what you're describing is in effect right now in neighbouring Kuwait, a parliamentary Monarchy in name only, they do have an elected parliament, but nothing they say or do should the prince or Prime Minister (who is appointed by the Prince, and is usually from the ruling family) decide otherwise, they can do nothing, people tried in that country for real change but were imprisoned.

What made the Monarchies of Europe leave their absolute power was force, the force of revolution, if the Monarchies of Arabia "gave" people the right to vote, it can be taken away any time, because what given by them can be taken by them as well.

At least they offer stability, without monarchies tribes would compete for power. don't get me wrong I'm a republican I want a true democratic system and full human rights, but I don't know how, and I'm alone.

what is the relation and the power balance between the monarchy and the religious in your country?
can the monarchy ban the religious establishment just like that?

the image I get from here is that the religious leaders have so much influence on the people that they can take your country in hostage and that they can ultimately block any reform they don't like, with or without the royals

 

[IronSide]

what is the relation and the power balance between the monarchy and the religious in your country?
can the monarchy ban the religious establishment just like that?

the image I get from here is that the religious leaders have so much influence on the people that they can take your country in hostage and that they can ultimately block any reform they don't like, with or without the royals

Since the early days of the current royal house in the 18th century, they claimed their legitimacy to rule and conquer by the fact that they are upholding the teachings of Islam, compare it to the divine right of kings, it becomes sinful to rise against them.

They want their rule to have a religious "aura", so they're giving the religious people some control over education and the Judicial system, they fund them, they allow them to patrol the streets (religious police), they have Islamic universities, Islamic media ... etc.

However, sometimes there would be conflict, for example, in the past the religious fundamentalists wanted to ban education for girls, the Royals didn't want half the population to be illiterate and useless so they ignored the fundamentalists and built schools anyway, but as a compromise they allowed the fundamentalists to write the curriculum for various subjects. A second example was their attempt to ban TV, The Royals didn't want to ban TV but as a compromise they allowed the fundamentalists to enact their own channels and stations.

That was their tactic in the past, compromises, the Royals have more power but they still want to appear religious to the public, and for that they needed the fundamentalists.

Today on the other hand, if the fundamentalists challenge any decree they are simply ignored, they are not given any space to express their dissatisfaction, and any dissent is punished immediately, it seems it became easier to label them as terrorists and traitors and do away with them.

It is an observable trend in their power dynamic right now, the religious police is weaker than it was before, the number of religious subjects in school was reduced, Sharia law punishments like cutting off the arms and stoning are abolished, and they are constantly being demonized in popular TV shows. No compromises were made.

Questions that cross my mind are: -can we interpret these events as the Royals finally giving up on the idea of religious legitimacy? if so then why are they so slow of getting rid of them? they are too careful and every move is separated by a long period of time, they also seem interested in influencing public opinion to match their interests.

 

[LeBrok]

Since the early days of the current royal house in the 18th century, they claimed their legitimacy to rule and conquer by the fact that they are upholding the teachings of Islam, compare it to the divine right of kings, it becomes sinful to rise against them.

They want their rule to have a religious "aura", so they're giving the religious people some control over education and the Judicial system, they fund them, they allow them to patrol the streets (religious police), they have Islamic universities, Islamic media ... etc.

However, sometimes there would be conflict, for example, in the past the religious fundamentalists wanted to ban education for girls, the Royals didn't want half the population to be illiterate and useless so they ignored the fundamentalists and built schools anyway, but as a compromise they allowed the fundamentalists to write the curriculum for various subjects. A second example was their attempt to ban TV, The Royals didn't want to ban TV but as a compromise they allowed the fundamentalists to enact their own channels and stations.

That was their tactic in the past, compromises, the Royals have more power but they still want to appear religious to the public, and for that they needed the fundamentalists.

Today on the other hand, if the fundamentalists challenge any decree they are simply ignored, they are not given any space to express their dissatisfaction, and any dissent is punished immediately, it seems it became easier to label them as terrorists and traitors and do away with them.

It is an observable trend in their power dynamic right now, the religious police is weaker than it was before, the number of religious subjects in school was reduced, Sharia law punishments like cutting off the arms and stoning are abolished, and they are constantly being demonized in popular TV shows. No compromises were made.

Questions that cross my mind are: -can we interpret these events as the Royals finally giving up on the idea of religious legitimacy? if so then why are they so slow of getting rid of them? they are too careful and every move is separated by a long period of time, they also seem interested in influencing public opinion to match their interests.

If your royals are decent human beings and are educated in the West, they will have tendencies to open up and to go against local traditions. However, there is always time when religious establishment will push back, scared of all the quick changes. To change it permanently, they would need to have lesser financial support and fewer citizens interested in their religion. Their biggest strength right now is huge popular support.
It might take 100 or 200 years to secularise SA, and middle east in general. It is a slow process.

 

[Bergin]

IronSide, what do the average people want? How do they feel? What do they value?
Sorry, but I am almost completely ignorant about your culture.