The Picts

Qruithin (Q-Celtic) = Pritane (P-Celtic) = Britania (Latin)
 
Qruithin (Q-Celtic) = Pritane (P-Celtic) = Britania (Latin)

the filiation Pritane > Britannia is debated by someones; a theory proposes a crossing between two origines, Pritane/i on a side and Brittia > Brittone (= Briktia: in link with the tatooing concept? today Welsh brith, breton brizh : freckled, spotted, mixed...); no exclusion of one by another, just a crossing/mistake?
 
Before Dal Riata expanded its kingdom into western Scotland, there was a Caledonian tribe located in Argyle called the Epidii, who were already speaking Gaelic.

'Epidi' doesn't sound too much Gaelic at first hearing. something like 'ep(-os)' root? not 'ec' ('each': horse).
Concerning old ethnies descriptions by ancients, let's be sceptical a bit. But at IA it seems some continental Celtic tribes o sets of tribes migrated to Britains, rather in East, from Switzerland or SouthGermany periphery, and they had some 'alpine (short brachycephalic brunet types) with them, maybe by exogamy system of mating with women of previous pop's, if I remember well. And we cannot exclude totally ancient Neolithic pockets of dark people (but Neolithic 'Longbarrows' 'atlanto-mediter' people were not so short, in reality).
 
'Epidi' doesn't sound too much Gaelic at first hearing. something like 'ep(-os)' root? not 'ec' ('each': horse).
Concerning old ethnies descriptions by ancients, let's be sceptical a bit. But at IA it seems some continental Celtic tribes o sets of tribes migrated to Britains, rather in East, from Switzerland or SouthGermany periphery, and they had some 'alpine (short brachycephalic brunet types) with them, maybe by exogamy system of mating with women of previous pop's, if I remember well. And we cannot exclude totally ancient Neolithic pockets of dark people (but Neolithic 'Longbarrows' 'atlanto-mediter' people were not so short, in reality).

The ancient Roman description of Scots or Brits is quite fitting. Other groups not so much but I think the description of Picts is just describing a group of people with slightly higher CHG admixture.
 
The Romans greatly feared the Picts so much so that they built a wall and fabricated a battle. It's too bad we don't have more concrete descriptions. I mean a desolate place like Scotland hardly warrants a wall if they were just tattooed savages in a sparsely populated region. I sometimes wonder if far more legions were lost its just they were purposely ignored.
 
The term 'Pict' was never used before 297AD. Prior to that time the Romans refered to the peoples of northern Scotland as the Caledonians. I expect the reason for this was because by 297AD the Caledonains may have been the only northern tribal group encounted by the Romans who still painted their bodies

In his book 'Britain and Germany' - Tacitus described the Caledonains as: 'red haired and large limbed, which he considered features of Germanic origin: “The reddish (rutilae) hair and large limbs of the Caledonians proclaim a German origin'. Of course the Germanic origin is false, because all the placenames are Brythonic. Nevertheless, I am a bit bewildered as to how the weird story about the Picts being a short and dark skinned race originated.

This dark look is still seen among the Scots infact I know some people who have Scottish surnames who display a phenotype that you would not expect from the British isles. It doesn't look Mediterranean either infact its a bit unusual and not all that common. One guy in particular fits the dark look that Romans described. Frankly I think it was just mixed with the Irish & germanics so it's not quite as evident these days.
 
We cannot rely too much on Ancients (and nowaday people!) depictions of other people. Too much stereotypes.
BTW the little Picts DNA we have at hand today show some differences within them and between them and other Britain Celts, but these differences are very tiny. Respectively to other ancient pop's they clustered with other insular Celts.
 
Why do people keep treating the Celts and the Picts as separate peoples? Everything I've read about them - from place-names derived from the Pictish language and their artwork - seems to indicate they were Brythonic Celts.
Because 1) I2a-L126 was found on Pabay Mor (off the West coast of the Isle of Lewis), in the Outer Hebrides, who lived c. 1311 BCE, and I2a-M284 was found in New Grange (the "incest" god-king), in Ireland, who lived c. 3522 BCE. M284 is pre-Bell Beaker and L126 is pre-Celtic. My line (West/Isles "Picts"?) survived the Bell Beakers and assimilated to the Celts, and may have entered the "Pritanic Isles" with the spread of agriculture. What's your haplogroup (I2a1b2-Isles-D1)?
 
Because 1) I2a-L126 was found on Pabay Mor (off the West coast of the Isle of Lewis), in the Outer Hebrides, who lived c. 1311 BCE, and I2a-M284 was found in New Grange (the "incest" god-king), in Ireland, who lived c. 3522 BCE. M284 is pre-Bell Beaker and L126 is pre-Celtic. My line (West/Isles "Picts"?) survived the Bell Beakers and assimilated to the Celts, and may have entered the "Pritanic Isles" with the spread of agriculture. What's your haplogroup (I2a1b2-Isles-D1)?
The Picts history knew were
Because 1) I2a-L126 was found on Pabay Mor (off the West coast of the Isle of Lewis), in the Outer Hebrides, who lived c. 1311 BCE, and I2a-M284 was found in New Grange (the "incest" god-king), in Ireland, who lived c. 3522 BCE. M284 is pre-Bell Beaker and L126 is pre-Celtic. My line (West/Isles "Picts"?) survived the Bell Beakers and assimilated to the Celts, and may have entered the "Pritanic Isles" with the spread of agriculture. What's your haplogroup (I2a1b2-Isles-D1)?
The question is: have we enough Y-haplo-s for ancient Cruithni of Ireland and Picts of Scotland to elaborate theries? For historic Picts, I 'm aware of very little samples.
 
The Picts history knew were

The question is: have we enough Y-haplo-s for ancient Cruithni of Ireland and Picts of Scotland to elaborate theries? For historic Picts, I 'm aware of very little samples.

I intentionally placed quotes around Picts and followed it with a question mark ('West/Isles "Picts"?'). That is less theorizing (elaborately or not), than simply indicating that it constitutes, in my opinion, an open question. (I don't subscribe to the "lost Irish tribe" thesis that some are pushing.) Consider it as an unsolved puzzle, but not without "pieces", relief from all of the "R1b-mongering" that goes on here.

I have 174 Big-Y, and another couple dozen YFull SNP, matches for I2a-Y4142>Y4751+, so, while the ancient samples may be sparse (see I-M284+), the modern ones are relatively abundant.
 
I have not the time to answer seriously just now but I may say: are we sure that the current percentages are representative of ancient situations spite in the same geographic places?
 
I have not the time to answer seriously just now but I may say: are we sure that the current percentages are representative of ancient situations spite in the same geographic places?
I'm not sure what you're asking.

The line is I-M284 (9600 BCE*) > FGC14213 (6050 BCE) > L1195 (4100 BCE) > L137 (3750 BCE)> L126 (1600 BCE). * FTDNA Discovery Report estimated "most recent common ancestor".

There are 56 ancient samples that are M284+: Ireland (30), Great Britain (23 England-13, Scotland-9, Wales-1), UK (1 Viking UK/1010 ybp), Denmark (Viking Denmark/1000 ybp), and Sweden (1 - Viking Sweden/870 ybp). The two found outside Ireland/Great Britain and one "UK" sample are from the Viking era (990-1130 CE), so can probably be assumed to be originally from Ireland or Great Britain.

See: https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...TDNA_Y_Haplotree&searchfor=M284%&ybp=500000,0

The only I2a-L126 ancient sample (I2655) has only been found at Pabay Mor, Lewis, Western Isles, Scotland - 3311 mean age (ybp) [1311 BCE]. All other L126+ samples ("2,366 DNA tested descendants" - FTDNA) are modern: Ireland (286), Scotland (199), United States (169), Northern Ireland (113), England (69), United Kingdom (49), Unknown (1,405), etc. ("Based on self-reported earliest known direct paternal countries of origin from participants"). Note: Either "Ireland" or "United Kingdom" can be Northern Ireland, so I wouldn't put much weight on more tested descendants claiming Ireland as a country of origin than Scotland or Northern Ireland, for instance.

Maciamo's map for I2a-P214 (90% of which are I2a-M223) shows +10% concentrations in SW Scotland/NE Ireland, Germany, and Sweden.

Haplogroup-I2b.png
 
I'm not sure what you're asking.

The line is I-M284 (9600 BCE*) > FGC14213 (6050 BCE) > L1195 (4100 BCE) > L137 (3750 BCE)> L126 (1600 BCE). * FTDNA Discovery Report estimated "most recent common ancestor".

There are 56 ancient samples that are M284+: Ireland (30), Great Britain (23 England-13, Scotland-9, Wales-1), UK (1 Viking UK/1010 ybp), Denmark (Viking Denmark/1000 ybp), and Sweden (1 - Viking Sweden/870 ybp). The two found outside Ireland/Great Britain and one "UK" sample are from the Viking era (990-1130 CE), so can probably be assumed to be originally from Ireland or Great Britain.

See: https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...TDNA_Y_Haplotree&searchfor=M284%&ybp=500000,0

The only I2a-L126 ancient sample (I2655) has only been found at Pabay Mor, Lewis, Western Isles, Scotland - 3311 mean age (ybp) [1311 BCE]. All other L126+ samples ("2,366 DNA tested descendants" - FTDNA) are modern: Ireland (286), Scotland (199), United States (169), Northern Ireland (113), England (69), United Kingdom (49), Unknown (1,405), etc. ("Based on self-reported earliest known direct paternal countries of origin from participants"). Note: Either "Ireland" or "United Kingdom" can be Northern Ireland, so I wouldn't put much weight on more tested descendants claiming Ireland as a country of origin than Scotland or Northern Ireland, for instance.

Maciamo's map for I2a-P214 (90% of which are I2a-M223) shows +10% concentrations in SW Scotland/NE Ireland, Germany, and Sweden.

View attachment 16556
I think modern distributions can abuse us concerning ancient distribution - ATW I should be glad if you'd precise me what is the possible role you see for Y-I2a2 in the Picts genesis. Perhaps I had interpretated your posts.
 
I have no reason to believe that the "Picts" were other than P-Celtic-speaking "Brythons" who were cut off and isolated by the Romans (through the Hadrian and Antonine Walls and forts/campaigns between and beyond them). The Brythonic "Picts" would have occupied all of Scotland (north of the Solway-Firth line), including the Western Isles, before the migration of the Irish Gaels ("Scotti") to Argyle (Dalriada) c.500 CE.

The ancient I2a-L126 sample (c.1311 BCE) on an island, Pabay Mor, off the west coast of the Isle of Lewis, Outer Hebrides, at least raises the question of a post-Bell Beaker I2a "refugium" (I2a-M284>FGC14213>L1195>L137>L126) in the Western Isles, the descendants of which assimilated to the incoming R1b Celts expanding from the Halstadt/La Tenne Culture in Central Europe (c.750 BCE?).

Thus, my quizzical reference to the possibility of "West Picts" (Epidii?). We know little of them because

1) the Romans had little interaction with them, unless they were the fabled "Attacotti" of the "Barbarian Conspiracy" (c.367/68 CE), which threatened to push the Romans out of Britain and put the Romans permanently on the defense, eventually leading to their withdrawal from Britainia (c.410 CE) as not worth the expense to defend.

2) they would have later been assimilated by the Irish Gaels/Dalriada (c.500 CE).

We do know more, through the Romans of the Celtic tribes to the east (Caledonii/Maetae, or "East Picts"?) and the Brythonic tribes to the south (Damnonii, Votadini, Selgovae, Novantae).

The most recent common ancestor of L126 > FGC20063 > FT2393 > FT2393 > S7753 > Y4142 >Y4751 is estimated by FTDNA's Discover tool to have been born with a higher likelihood ~353 CE, corresponding to a decade or so before the Barbarian Conspiracy (367-68 CE), with sons (aged in their 30s?) around the time of Rome's withdrawal from Britainia (c.410 CE).

Y4751, with 21 branches in the I-M223 Project hosted by FTDNA, is indicative of a sudden "star burst" expansion following a long bottleneck:

L126 (3) > FGC20063 (2) > FT2393 (2) > FT2393 (2) > S7753 (2) > Y4142 (3) > Y4751 (21)

The "star burst" looks to spread from the Isles/Highlands (my Big Y matches at Y4142 is primarily from the Western Isles/Highlands) to the Lowlands, Borders, Yorkshire, Wales, and Ulster.

This looks more like a overlayer (superstrate) rather than an underlayer (substrate) poking through in spots.

Many Isles/Highland "clan" surnames and Lowland/Borders "family" surnames have minority I2a lineages among the majority R1b lineages. Scottish clans/families and tribes are not homogeneous, but heterogeneous. In western Scotland, the Y4142>Y4751 expansion could have come from a founder's effect that burst forth once the lid was taken off the pot, so to speak. In ("east") Pictland proper, while I2a might form a thin overlayer, an R1b "Bell Beaker" underlayer (substrate) could subsist under a main R1b "Celtic" (Halstadt/La Tenne) body.

The northern "Celtic" tribes would have encompassed the Isles (Epidae?), Highlands (Caledonii/Maetae ), Lowlands/Borders (Damnonii, Votadini, Selgovae, Novantae), Midlands (Brigantes), etc., and likely would have come into the "Pritanic Isles" during the Iron Age (c.750 BCE) as an expansion of the Halstadt/La Tenne Culture, which developed from the Urnfield Culture. They would have encountered peoples who were already there - Bell Beakers (R1b), but also possibly remnants of a Pre-Bell Beaker Neolithic/Mesolithic population (I2a). The Bell Beakers (bronze-using) and Celts (iron-using) invaders had technological advantages over the resident "native" populations. The pre-Bell Beaker population had been largely "replaced" (but not eliminated), while the pre-Celtic population would have "assimilated" to new overlords and language. Over time Q-Celtic (in Ireland) and P-Celtic (in Britain) diverged due to separation - a theory is that Q-Celtic is the more "archaic" due to isolation, while P-Celtic was more exposed to influences from the continent.
 
I have no reason to believe that the "Picts" were other than P-Celtic-speaking "Brythons" who were cut off and isolated by the Romans (through the Hadrian and Antonine Walls and forts/campaigns between and beyond them). The Brythonic "Picts" would have occupied all of Scotland (north of the Solway-Firth line), including the Western Isles, before the migration of the Irish Gaels ("Scotti") to Argyle (Dalriada) c.500 CE.

The ancient I2a-L126 sample (c.1311 BCE) on an island, Pabay Mor, off the west coast of the Isle of Lewis, Outer Hebrides, at least raises the question of a post-Bell Beaker I2a "refugium" (I2a-M284>FGC14213>L1195>L137>L126) in the Western Isles, the descendants of which assimilated to the incoming R1b Celts expanding from the Halstadt/La Tenne Culture in Central Europe (c.750 BCE?).

Thus, my quizzical reference to the possibility of "West Picts" (Epidii?). We know little of them because

1) the Romans had little interaction with them, unless they were the fabled "Attacotti" of the "Barbarian Conspiracy" (c.367/68 CE), which threatened to push the Romans out of Britain and put the Romans permanently on the defense, eventually leading to their withdrawal from Britainia (c.410 CE) as not worth the expense to defend.

2) they would have later been assimilated by the Irish Gaels/Dalriada (c.500 CE).

We do know more, through the Romans of the Celtic tribes to the east (Caledonii/Maetae, or "East Picts"?) and the Brythonic tribes to the south (Damnonii, Votadini, Selgovae, Novantae).

The most recent common ancestor of L126 > FGC20063 > FT2393 > FT2393 > S7753 > Y4142 >Y4751 is estimated by FTDNA's Discover tool to have been born with a higher likelihood ~353 CE, corresponding to a decade or so before the Barbarian Conspiracy (367-68 CE), with sons (aged in their 30s?) around the time of Rome's withdrawal from Britainia (c.410 CE).

Y4751, with 21 branches in the I-M223 Project hosted by FTDNA, is indicative of a sudden "star burst" expansion following a long bottleneck:

L126 (3) > FGC20063 (2) > FT2393 (2) > FT2393 (2) > S7753 (2) > Y4142 (3) > Y4751 (21)

The "star burst" looks to spread from the Isles/Highlands (my Big Y matches at Y4142 is primarily from the Western Isles/Highlands) to the Lowlands, Borders, Yorkshire, Wales, and Ulster.

This looks more like a overlayer (superstrate) rather than an underlayer (substrate) poking through in spots.

Many Isles/Highland "clan" surnames and Lowland/Borders "family" surnames have minority I2a lineages among the majority R1b lineages. Scottish clans/families and tribes are not homogeneous, but heterogeneous. In western Scotland, the Y4142>Y4751 expansion could have come from a founder's effect that burst forth once the lid was taken off the pot, so to speak. In ("east") Pictland proper, while I2a might form a thin overlayer, an R1b "Bell Beaker" underlayer (substrate) could subsist under a main R1b "Celtic" (Halstadt/La Tenne) body.

The northern "Celtic" tribes would have encompassed the Isles (Epidae?), Highlands (Caledonii/Maetae ), Lowlands/Borders (Damnonii, Votadini, Selgovae, Novantae), Midlands (Brigantes), etc., and likely would have come into the "Pritanic Isles" during the Iron Age (c.750 BCE) as an expansion of the Halstadt/La Tenne Culture, which developed from the Urnfield Culture. They would have encountered peoples who were already there - Bell Beakers (R1b), but also possibly remnants of a Pre-Bell Beaker Neolithic/Mesolithic population (I2a). The Bell Beakers (bronze-using) and Celts (iron-using) invaders had technological advantages over the resident "native" populations. The pre-Bell Beaker population had been largely "replaced" (but not eliminated), while the pre-Celtic population would have "assimilated" to new overlords and language. Over time Q-Celtic (in Ireland) and P-Celtic (in Britain) diverged due to separation - a theory is that Q-Celtic is the more "archaic" due to isolation, while P-Celtic was more exposed to influences from the continent.
I'm not a specalist and haven't the time just now to make a valuable answer.
I think the Y-I2a1b and I2a2 clans of northern Britain (and Ireland?) were made of ancient last Neolithic (megalithic sort) people very well adapted to sea/shores/stones and to all these islands, who absorbed a lot the of Celtic DNA by intermating, eventually adopted completely the Celtic culture; maybe they already had absorbed a lot of pre-Celtic BB's DNA. BTW I think the first Celts were in Britain (and previously in Gaul) before IA and Hallstatt LaTène... It could explain the big differences between Gaelic and Brithonic (Pretani) if we don't take in account a different substratum...
 
BTW I think the first Celts were in Britain (and previously in Gaul) before IA and Hallstatt LaTène... It could explain the big differences between Gaelic and Brithonic (Pretani) if we don't take in account a different substratum...
I don't think that the Gaels can be entirely eliminated from being the source population of L1195>L137>L126+. Post-BB ancient samples might still be found in Ireland. L1195 ancient samples have been found more in Britain (the oldest from Scotland c. 3800 BCE, and four others from England, c.3500-2850 BCE) than in Ireland (two in Primrose Grange, c.3650-3500 BCE), but all are pre-BB by ~350 (1) to over 1,000 years (6). M284 ancient samples have only been found in Ireland (two in Primrose Grange, c.3650-3500 BCE, and one in Carrowkeel, County Sligo, c.2800 BCE.

I have a prototypically "Irish" surname on a branch of the Y-DNA Haplotree (Y4751>FTT7) that is almost completely "Irish", which means that my Y-DNA lineage probably dates back to before the formation of surnames in Ireland (900-1100 CE?). I also have Big Y matches with earliest known paternal ancestors from Scotland whose descendants never migrated to Ireland or who did so only after 1600 (Scotch-Irish Plantations or Highland/Border Clearances). We share common paternal ancestors at Y4751 (which is a mixture of Irish/Scottish/English branches) and, one step up, at Y4142, which is almost entirely "Scottish". I interpret this as meaning that some "sons" went to Ireland in search of land before the formation of surnames, while others remained in Scotland.

I'm not saying, "the Cruithne were Picts", for instance, although I do think the Picts were likely Brythons. I believe the Cruithne came from Brythons in West Scotland who may have been related to the Picts ("West" Picts?).

Qruithne (Q-Celtic) = Pritane (P-Celtic) = Brithon/Britain (Latin).
 
last Neolithic (megalithic sort) people very well adapted to sea/shores/stones and to all these islands, who absorbed a lot the of Celtic DNA by intermating, eventually adopted completely the Celtic culture; maybe they already had absorbed a lot of pre-Celtic BB's DNA.....BTW I think the first Celts were in Britain (and previously in Gaul) before IA and Hallstatt LaTène... It could explain the big differences between Gaelic and Brithonic (Pretani) if we don't take in account a different substratum...
Where we differ is that I think that the "Cruithne" were initially assimilated to the Brythonic (British) Celts, not the Goidelic (Irish) Celts. By the way, Ewan Campbell's thesis of a common "Gaelic" (Q-Celtic) culture bridging the Irish Sea has largely been debunked:

A critical analysis of Dr Ewan Campbell's paper "Were the Scots Irish?"
 
Where we differ is that I think that the "Cruithne" were initially assimilated to the Brythonic (British) Celts, not the Goidelic (Irish) Celts. By the way, Ewan Campbell's thesis of a common "Gaelic" (Q-Celtic) culture bridging the Irish Sea has largely been debunked:

A critical analysis of Dr Ewan Campbell's paper "Were the Scots Irish?"
I 'll look at this link you put here. Thanks.
Otherwise I'm not sure I have been well understood by you, or well understandable. I have nothing at hand to think Cruithni could have been Qw- Celtic speakers at first. I even suspect the Cruithni as being come to Ireland from Scotland and not directly from the continent, without proof it's true. I gave previously my opinion about the Y-I2a clans, not Celtic nor even BB at first, but becoming acculturated later into the Celtic material culture, maybe keeping their previous language a long time before to switch - I don't identify Cruithni with Y-I2a(-1b and -2) at all presently. Concerning Y-I2a1b and I2a2 (of distinct origins and stories), I'm a bit lost among their later subclades, sorry.
Have a good evening. Oidhche mha, Noswezh vat.
 
I 'll look at this link you put here. Thanks.
Otherwise I'm not sure I have been well understood by you, or well understandable. I have nothing at hand to think Cruithni could have been Qw- Celtic speakers at first. I even suspect the Cruithni as being come to Ireland from Scotland and not directly from the continent, without proof it's true. I gave previously my opinion about the Y-I2a clans, not Celtic nor even BB at first, but becoming acculturated later into the Celtic material culture, maybe keeping their previous language a long time before to switch - I don't identify Cruithni with Y-I2a(-1b and -2) at all presently. Concerning Y-I2a1b and I2a2 (of distinct origins and stories), I'm a bit lost among their later subclades, sorry.
Have a good evening. Oidhche mha, Noswezh vat.
I may have misunderstood. I see "Celtic" culture as being an Iron Age phenomenon. Certainly, there were antecedents (Urnfield < Tumulus). I think it was a relatively sudden change, rather than a gradual one, brought about by an incoming technologically advanced (iron-using) culture ("people", not just "pots"). Without iron, I don't think they would otherwise have made the headway they did into the "Pretanic Isles" - there may have been incursions, between the Bell Beakers and the Celts, but they likely were absorbed and didn't leave much of a trace. The people who were already there (Bell Beakers, etc.) weren't an entirely alien culture (being Indo-European) and weren't replaced or wiped out, so there was likely some "blending".

I think the so-called "Cruithni" were likely Brythons who migrated to Ulster from Scotland (Ayrshire and Galloway?) before the formation of surnames (thus, with "Irish" surnames), likely containing both I2a and R1b lineages. Later inputs into Ireland would have been from Vikings, Anglo-Normans, Galloglasses, Protestant Plantationers, Highland/Border Clearances, Scottish Regiments, etc., also containing both I2a and R1b lineages.

The difference with the I-M284..L1195..L126+ line is that it goes back to the Neolithic, and possibly the Mesolithic, in Britain (England, Wales, Scotland, and Ireland) rather than coming in with later groups.

I suspect that the Irish Sea, at least in the late-Bronze/early-Iron Ages, was more of a genetic/linguistic barrier than a "marine highway" - wide-spread seafaring, and piracy, under sail, was likely a later development.
 
The Romans greatly feared the Picts so much so that they built a wall and fabricated a battle. It's too bad we don't have more concrete descriptions. I mean a desolate place like Scotland hardly warrants a wall if they were just tattooed savages in a sparsely populated region. I sometimes wonder if far more legions were lost its just they were purposely ignored.
Fabricate a battle (Mons Graupius) ?
Why then did the Romans gave credit to their Batavian auxiliary troops for their victory over the Caledonians and not to their own citizen legionaries?
 
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