The time and place of origin of South Caucasian languages: insights into past human societies, ecosystems and human population genetics

[Omino]

"This study re-examines the linguistic phylogeny of the South Caucasian linguistic family (aka the Kartvelian linguistic family) and attempts to identify its Urheimat. We apply Bayesian phylogenetics to infer a dated phylogeny of the South Caucasian languages. We infer the Urheimat and the reasons for the split of the Kartvelian languages by taking into consideration (1) the past distribution ranges of wildlife elements whose names can be traced back to proto-Kartvelian roots, (2) the distribution ranges of past cultures and (3) the genetic variations of past and extant human populations. Our best-fit Bayesian phylogenetic model is in agreement with the widely accepted topology suggested by previous studies. However, in contrast to these studies, our model suggests earlier mean split dates, according to which the divergence between Svan and Karto-Zan occurred in the early Copper Age, while Georgian and Zan diverged in the early Iron Age. The split of Zan into Megrelian and Laz is widely attributed to the spread of Georgian and/or Georgian speakers in the seventh-eighth centuries CE. Our analyses place the Kartvelian Urheimat in an area that largely intersects the Colchis glacial refugium in the South Caucasus. The divergence of Kartvelian languages is strongly associated with differences in the rate of technological expansions in relation to landscape heterogeneity, as well as the emergence of state-run communities. Neolithic societies could not colonize dense forests, whereas Copper Age societies made limited progress in this regard, but not to the same degree of success achieved by Bronze and Iron Age societies. The paper also discusses the importance of glacial refugia in laying the foundation for linguistic families and where Indo-European languages might have originated."

The time and place of origin of South Caucasian languages: insights into past human societies, ecosystems and human population genetics - Scientific Reports

This study re-examines the linguistic phylogeny of the South Caucasian linguistic family (aka the Kartvelian linguistic family) and attempts to identify its Urheimat. We apply Bayesian phylogenetics to infer a dated phylogeny of the South Caucasian languages. We infer the Urheimat and the...

www.nature.com

 

[Moja]

It says "the homeland of Indo-European languages can be refined to the Zagros or Hyrcanian (Alborz) refugia".

 

[Archetype0ne]

That is one thing I started wondering about. And that made Lazaridis Southern Arc make more sense relating to IE origin.
IE developing in the steppe makes far less sense, given its spread across Iran and Northern India that if it developed around Caucasus, Western Iran. If it originated in the steppe it would have to cross so many geographic barriers in such a short time to have the spread where it did.
Furthermore I was thinking about this:
"The Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroups R1a1, R2, L, and J2, which are found in higher frequencies among various populations of the Indian subcontinent, are also observed among various populations of Europe, Central Asia, and Middle East."
Maybe the J2b sister clade to L283 that is exclusively found in India is further proof that the J that took part in the IE genesis was upstream of L283, and one branch took to the west while the other went east.

 

[Omino]

That is one thing I started wondering about. And that made Lazaridis Southern Arc make more sense relating to IE origin.
IE developing in the steppe makes far less sense, given its spread across Iran and Northern India that if it developed around Caucasus, Western Iran. If it originated in the steppe it would have to cross so many geographic barriers in such a short time to have the spread where it did.
Furthermore I was thinking about this:
"The Y-chromosome DNA Haplogroups R1a1, R2, L, and J2, which are found in higher frequencies among various populations of the Indian subcontinent, are also observed among various populations of Europe, Central Asia, and Middle East."
Maybe the J2b sister clade to L283 that is exclusively found in India is further proof that the J that took part in the IE genesis was upstream of L283, and one branch took to the west while the other went east.

I think that the biggest flaw in steppe theory is the lack of EHG in Anatolians while they spoke Indo-European languages.
The only common thing between steppe and Anatolia is the CHG/Iran_N admixture

 

[Archetype0ne]

I think that the biggest flaw in steppe theory is the lack of EHG in Anatolians while they spoke Indo-European languages.
The only common thing between steppe and Anatolia is the CHG/Iran_N admixture

Yeah, that would put another spin to it.
<disregard, mistakenly looked up the mtdna yfull tree>But also interesting how these clades are related. Not sure if there is anything to it. But both R1a and R1b stem from R1. And both J and R stem from L. Meanwhile all of R1a, R1b, J2b and L could be connected to IE (not really certain). And I am saying I am not sure if there is anything to it, because L is really f old, so doubt we will ever find out.<disregard, mistakenly looked up the mtdna yfull tree>

An out there theory is that a similar glacial refugium that gave rise to the Caucasian languages, could be the seed to IE languages as well? And for sure this would not have happened too up north, and likely not in the steppe (given it leaves little protection from the cold). It could have happened in caves or other natural refugiums. Takes Kotias Kilde in the caucasus for example, we get both J2a and J2b, in the save cave, with the same dating, sharing the same maternal haplogroup.

 

[Moja]

Zagros is actually the holy land of Indo-Europeans, its Persian name is Bagastana which means "the place of gods": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription Zagros is from Old Persian Asgarta/Asgard: https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/Zagros which has the same meaning in the Germanic languages, from the older name Ansan: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anshan_(Persia)

 

[Viramund]

both J and R stem from L.

?
Common ancestor for J and R is IJK.
L Seems to be a iranian neolithic haplogroup. It is possible to see CHG y dna, like J2b and J2a perhaps showing up in upcoming sredny stog samples but Iranian neolithic lineages such as G1, L, T , R2, i think the odds are extremely low, as the southern component in steppe is overwhelmingly CHG, these lineages just like J-M241 were spread into south asia by iranian neolithic non indo european mygrations who spoke languages akin to elamite.

 

[Archetype0ne]

?
Common ancestor for J and R is IJK.
L Seems to be a iranian neolithic haplogroup. It is possible to see CHG y dna, like J2b and J2a perhaps showing up in upcoming sredny stog samples but Iranian neolithic lineages such as G1, L, T , R2, i think the odds are extremely low, as the southern component in steppe is overwhelmingly CHG, these lineages just like J-M241 were spread into south asia by iranian neolithic non indo european mygrations who spoke languages akin to elamite.

I stand corrected. Just realized I had searched yfulls mtdna tree.
About IE and geography though I stand by my point.