Things that make the US different from other developed countries

[byp]

5) Power and image of the police. While in many European countries , police officers are usually treated with contempt (saying things to the kids like "if you don't go to school, you'll become a garbage collector or a cop"). ... The only EU country I can think of where cops have a (quite) good reputation is the UK (for their courtesy and politness when you ask them for directions ). In Japan, the police's reputation is ok, without making too muc fuss about it. It is actually more like in the UK.

this is a silly statement ! no, since you quoted that very precise subject several time, i will change my wording "silly" for a more appropriate one : stupid ! it is a stupid statement.
i think you lost touch with reality and should go back to europe from time to time and travel around. the only difference between uk police and other european ones is that the uk do not carry a gun. as for politness and readyness to help, there is no difference between uk, denmark, sweden, switzerland, italy, french, belgium, spanish, portugal or greek police, or other for that matter, because i can add most of all other european police forces (excepted that i dont know so much about the "new" ones from the east). the story about "saying to the kids... etc" is an old "out of date" story dating from the 50's - 60's at the very most. Go and tell that to a kid today, he would mostly agree to become a cop (probably not a garbage collector (which, by the way is a very honourable profession, if might remind you...).

> I used to have more respect for your opinions and analysis but you've totally abandoned reason and logic.

2 things : i'm NOT pro american, i could even say on the contrary since bush came in the white house. but i agree with you mdchachi, maciamo is slightly off course on that particular post, even though it is "bloody interresting" as an uk cop would say...

> This was my first and the only one time, when I met Americans face to face, and I never in my life saw people so full in themselves and so arrogant.

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you meet some nicer ones next time.

yep, but there i have to agree a little. for the past months (in fact ever since the irak war started) the us citizen were extremely discreet and quiet in europe, which was a great relief to most of us. because otherwise they are mostly what maciamo said. and working in "public" and being close ( or parallel to...) tourist trade, i had the opportunity to be close to us travellers.

2) US education brainwashes American children the following way:....

you forgot how kids are now brainwashed by publicity... coca cola and mcdonald are some of the greatest providers of $$$ for education ! good bye healthy kids, good morning 35% overweight going on 50...

b) they must sing the national anthem in front of the national flag so as to make good patriots of them (to support US war on Iraq and Afghanistan for example).

kids in germany used to do the same in the 30's...

Man, this thread is just full of great stuff!

sorry, but i have to agree with that particular statement !!! LOL

Ask anyone in a poor, undeveloped country if they had the chance to emigrate to another country where would they like to go, France, Germany, Italy, anywhere else in Europe, or the U.S.?I think many would say "the U.S."

LOL !! dont believe that. it might have been like that 15 / 20 years ago but not anymore, mate. come out of your woods and go see the world. u.s. is no longer "the in place".

Man, I have to deal with Japan bashing AND America bashing.

BTW, those Germans spat on Lance Armstrong instead of respecting him for overcoming cancer and winning his 6th Tour de France.
But nothing hurts like the truth, as the saying goes.

the question is : what did he "drink" before starting each tour... we'll know the answer in a few years, no doubt about that. but it will look ridiculous to take him out of the
honour list of the tour de france. the first to blame are the french's organisers for letting such things happening.
as for overcomming cancer, thousands did it, before him and will over the years to come.
who was talking about arrogance ?

I But nothing hurts like the truth, as the saying goes.

yep, agree with you. can you say that again, looking at yourself in a mirror and go out smiling for a day's work ??

@All.. Be nice :blush: , I am enjoying this thread.

oh yessssss, me too

Ain't never gonna happen in the U.S.

i'm sur it wont... or maybe it will just look there....

Discount fares for drunks? Get real!

discount for drunks ? no mate. several countries in europe allready have (for MANY years) FREE fare for the drunks. it's called "nez rouge" in france & switzerland and "red noses" in some other countrie's own languages (or maybe something else, whatever). that's how european keep a low death toll due to alcoholism. at least it's a good sensed solution !. the "future drunk" go out with his own car and enjoy himself. when it's time to go home, he calls the association who will send a driver to bring him home in his own car (so he can throw up all he wants...LOL!!!). the (sober) driver will be followed by another car driven by another member of the association.
you see, go out and learn the world...

 

[Maciamo]

i think you lost touch with reality and should go back to europe from time to time and travel around. the only difference between uk police and other european ones is that the uk do not carry a gun. as for politness and readyness to help, there is no difference between uk, denmark, sweden, switzerland, italy, french, belgium, spanish, portugal or greek police, or other for that matter, because i can add most of all other european police forces (excepted that i dont know so much about the "new" ones from the east). the story about "saying to the kids... etc" is an old "out of date" story dating from the 50's - 60's at the very most. Go and tell that to a kid today, he would mostly agree to become a cop (probably not a garbage collector (which, by the way is a very honourable profession, if might remind you...).

Alright, shall I understand by this that you or someone you are close with is a copper ? Well, personally and among my relations in Europe, the profession of police "officer" (actually only Americans call them "officer" even when they aren't), is regarded with contempt. Well, some countries have 2 kinds of police. In Belgium and France there is "police" and "gendarmerie". The former is limited to a city, whose mayor is their boss. The latter has ranks like in the army (with officers from lieutenant to general), and I'd say they have a slightly better reputation than the "police" doing the traffic and giving fines for parking at the wrong place. But, like for the army, even officers are still considered as less intelligent than people going for regular jobs in business, law, medicine, etc. Maybe we just don't come from the same social background to understand each others on this point.

Let me add that the police in each European country has quite different reputation, and British policemen are certainly considered more friendly that the Italian "vigile" (one of the worst of his kind) or the German police.

Btw, go and tell kids that "refuse collector" is an honourable job, and they'll laugh at you, or if they believe you, they'll quit school immediately.

b) they must sing the national anthem in front of the national flag so as to make good patriots of them (to support US war on Iraq and Afghanistan for example).

kids in germany used to do the same in the 30's...

Well, yes during the period of nationalism and rise of nazism. I guess that is your point.

As for the rest of your post, I mostly agree with you.

 

[byp]

Alright, shall I understand by this that you or someone you are close with is a copper ?

just the fact to call a policeman a "copper" shows that arguing is of no avail. you do indeed seem to be extremely contemptuous of the police forces, where ever they are from. i hope you'll change your mind just before you really seriously need one.

Well, personally and among my relations in Europe, the profession of police "officer" (actually only Americans call them "officer" even when they aren't), is regarded with contempt.

seing the above remark (first quote) i'm not surprised that you do have "personnally and among your relations in europe" people contemptuous of the police forces. as for calling them "officer", sir, monsieur ou signor, it's a question of local civility.

Well, some countries have 2 kinds of police. In Belgium and France there is "police" and "gendarmerie". The former is limited to a city, whose mayor is their boss. The latter has ranks like in the army (with officers from lieutenant to general), and I'd say they have a slightly better reputation than the "police" doing the traffic and giving fines for parking at the wrong place. But, like for the army, even officers are still considered as less intelligent than people going for regular jobs in business, law, medicine, etc. Maybe we just don't come from the same social background to understand each others on this point.

thank you for the course on french & belgian police, it was not necessary since i'm close to the european polices systems, as you might have noticed. but you forgot some other kind of police, which is the judiciary police, and that is an important one, in any european force not to be forgoten.

Let me add that the police in each European country has quite different reputation, and British policemen are certainly considered more friendly that the Italian "vigile" (one of the worst of his kind) or the German police.

i hope signor ippolito will not read that remark, he might not be happy. just as i'm not. again you are wrong. because vigili are not policeman with full police authority, but carabinieri are. and believe me, even if they are not on the job to be sentimental or to look like clowns, they are extremely well educated as far as politness and amability is concerned. this remark is valid for most of the european personnel. but of course, judging from a teacher's seat, or a citizen quiet environment like yours, you cannot understand the complexity, the reality of police work.

Btw, go and tell kids that "refuse collector" is an honourable job, and they'll laugh at you, or if they believe you, they'll quit school immediately.

? ? ?
i'm just baffled and without words !
please maciamo, please !!! tell your kids that garbage collectors are human beings and tell them they are usefull and that it is an honourable job, even if they, themselves, will never become one of them because it would be the shame and disgrace of their father, the whole familly and the entire world...

but i forgot, refuse collectors have never been kids before, they were born like that, their hands clipped to the rear of a truck that smell all the way to the garbage dump !

what happened to you maciamo ? like mdchachi said before (see the first part of my post), i dont recognize your humanity any more, here.

 

[Maciamo]

just the fact to call a policeman a "copper" shows that arguing is of no avail.

There is nothing wrong with the word copper. It is not derogatory (check your dictionary).

you are wrong, because vigili are not policeman with full police authority, but carabinieri are.

Yes, I know that. That is why I said that vigili were worse, because they tend to be more frustrated for being given the ugly task of standing in the middle of the traffic - and in Italy, mind you !

they are extremely well educated as far as politness and amability is concerned.

Must not have lived in the same place. What's more, I was referring more to general knowledge, even the basics of the country's laws - but, they aren't lawyers, I admit.

tell your kids that garbage collectors are human beings and tell them they are usefull and that it is an honourable job, even if they, themselves, will never become one of them because it would be the shame and disgrace of their father, the whole familly and the entire world...

I think we have a very different conception of what is "honourable". I believe that there are very few honourable jobs. Maybe doctor or professor if they do well their job... sometimes exceptional statesmen or some people working for the UN, etc. "Honourable" means that distinguish the person from the common of the mortals through great achievements, by saving lives or contributing to the prosperity of a nation. I wouldn't even consider a big company's chairman, a lawyer or a celebrity to do honourable jobs, most of the time (there are exceptions, of course). So can you really say that refuse collector and police officer are honourable jos, as essential as they may be ?

 

[byp]

I think we have a very different conception of what is "honourable". I believe that there are very few honourable jobs. Maybe doctor or professor if they do well their job... sometimes exceptional statesmen or some people working for the UN, etc. "Honourable" means that distinguish the person from the common of the mortals through great achievements, by saving lives or contributing to the prosperity of a nation. I wouldn't even consider a big company's chairman, a lawyer or a celebrity to do honourable jobs, most of the time (there are exceptions, of course). So can you really say that refuse collector and police officer are honourable jos, as essential as they may be ?

yes, we can play on the word "honourable" and we will take the latin roots "honor" which is basically and generally defined as :
"Sentiments that one has of it's own morale dignity, pride towards oneself and others".
i see nowhere that one has to be an excellent doctor or professor to be honourable. i see nowhere that you have to save lives.
but let's play a little further and see if the honourable garbage in your honourable house could stand to be ignored (i.e. not taken away by... not so honourable garbage collectors) for several weeks and then smell the honourable stench invade your most delicate (honourable??) nostrils...
and now i quote you again :

So can you really say that refuse collector and police officer are honourable jos, as essential as they may be ?

really ?? think again, maciammo, please. i have met some of them that were proud of their work. i agree it's not the majority, but there are some. most of them had no choice but to do that kind of work : immigrants, less fortunate in life, less educated, a.s.o. Do that make them less honourable ? i dont believe so.
I am sure you have never spent one hour talking to a "really not honourable" garbage collector. you would have found him quite different from what you think. maybe you should try.

now. of course our point of view are totally different, and that makes life ever so attracting. i'm glad we had this exchange, and i enjoyed it. i'm not here to say you are wrong, and i will not believe, on that particular subject, that i'm right. that is what make us what we are. doubts and uncertainty makes the world progress. and i love it that way.

 

[Dan B]

This is an interesting thread. I have a couple of thoughts:

I don't know why people should automatically have contempt for the police. If a specific policeman is known to be abusive or something, he should be brought up on charges and, if found guilty, fired and/or imprisoned. But otherwise I see no reason to treat the police with disdain, as if they were some monolithic entity.

I'm really not interested in getting into a debate about gun ownership. But I find it a little odd that the only people to carry firearms in Europe are the people who are apparently looked down upon as, what, undereducated or less intelligent? (from Maciamo: "saying things to the kids like 'if you don't go to school, you'll become a garbage collector or a cop' "). If you're going to pick and choose who can carry or use firearms and your generalizations about European policeman (and the military) are correct, such people would hardly seem to be a good choice.

Regarding the drinking age, I would generally agree. If you're old enough to vote, drive, and serve in the military, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to drink. But, as mdchachi pointed out, raising the drinking age seems to have led to statistical reductions in the number of alcohol-related deaths in the U.S. (I would think that the massive anti-drunk-driving campaigns which have prevailed in high schools since the mid-1980s have also helped.)

Nonetheless, I agree that it would be even better if, as others have pointed out, more parents focused on teaching their children moderation instead of alcohol avoidance.

Presuming that the information at this site is correct, here are the actual legal driving ages in the U.S., listed by state:

http://golocalnet.com/drivingage/

As you can see, only a very few allow 14-year-olds to drive. I don't know for certain, but I have to presume that the rationale for this is based on the fact that those states have many agrarian communities, and there is--or at least used to be--some need to have younger drivers to help work the farms. (But 14 does seem awfully young to me! I'd be interested in learning about the number of accidents involving such young drivers in those states.)

For the benefit of those who may not know, in the U.S. a "learner's permit" means that a person can drive a car as long as there is a licensed driver in the car with them (in my experience, it has to be someone who is at least 18, sitting in the front passenger's seat, and would seem to most often be a parent). This is meant to help the young driver learn how to operate a car and get used to driving in a variety of traffic and weather conditions under the tutelage of a more experienced driver. Do the countries of Europe have something similar? I would assume that they do.

As for the use of "Junior" when naming (male) children in the U.S., in the last 5 years I've taught well over 600 students. I didn't count the number who had a "Junior," "II," "III," etc. in their names, but it was pretty rare. I would estimate that it was about 10 - 15 of them (~1.7% - 2.5%). My impression is that this is more common among very wealthy families...but that's still just a generalization. Perhaps the Census Bureau has information about this?

Regards,

Dan

 

[Maciamo]

I don't know why people should automatically have contempt for the police. If a specific policeman is known to be abusive or something, he should be brought up on charges and, if found guilty, fired and/or imprisoned. But otherwise I see no reason to treat the police with disdain, as if they were some monolithic entity.

I would be happy if it was possible, or actually done. but most of the time (around the world) there is little chances of fightin the authorities. The only places where this is possible is in Western countries. Even in Japan, it is suicidal to try to sue the police, government, etc.

I'm really not interested in getting into a debate about gun ownership. But I find it a little odd that the only people to carry firearms in Europe are the people who are apparently looked down upon as, what, undereducated or less intelligent? (from Maciamo: "saying things to the kids like 'if you don't go to school, you'll become a garbage collector or a cop' "). If you're going to pick and choose who can carry or use firearms and your generalizations about European policeman (and the military) are correct, such people would hardly seem to be a good choice.

I am glad you agree with me on this. But the same happens in the army. Those carrying guns are usually the ordinary soldiers, more than the high-ranking officers in their office/HQ.

For the benefit of those who may not know, in the U.S. a "learner's permit" means that a person can drive a car as long as there is a licensed driver in the car with them (in my experience, it has to be someone who is at least 18, sitting in the front passenger's seat, and would seem to most often be a parent).

Even without knowing the US, it's the same in Europe and Japan... But it's usually 6 or 9 months before turning 18, not 2 years before.

 

[Hachiko]

Some things that I know (all I can think of are different negative)...

* A bad government
* A two-party system
* Processed foods
* A crappy work schedule/work day
* An obligation by the guys to work in the military, if it should be done
* A censoring media

hmmmm...I'l think of others later...

 

[Maciamo]

* A bad government
* A two-party system
* Processed foods
* A crappy work schedule/work day
* An obligation by the guys to work in the military, if it should be done

Hmm, most of these are not unique to the US... What is more, the US does not have compulsory military service as you say. Some European countries do (France, Italy...), others don't (UK, Belgium...) and others have an optional one like the US.

 

[vorpar]

voting in the constitution

- Voting rights wasn't given to Black people or other racial minorities until 1965, but needed to be extended in 1970, 1975 and 1982 and still is an issue in some states nowadays.

The 15th amendment was ratified in 1870. Then, to further enforce it, the 24th amendment was ratified in 1964.

Yes, it's still an issue (see the 2000 election), but it has been illegal to deny the vote to anyone since 1920.

 

[Legato]

Wow! There is way too much to be said about this thread, so I'll just go over what I remember. First about all this alcohol/gun debate, I don't have a real opinion or a solution but the fact is that drunks driving is one of the first cause of car related death in every country with a lot of driver regardless of the laws, that's because regardless of where you go there are people (mainly young) who are irresponsible so I don't believe the laws are better in either the US, in Japan or Europe. As for the guns I will never understand why the US has so many more gun-related deaths than the other countries (proportionally), for those who saw ?Bowling for Columbine? there are some good points but it?s not all true, nor it is very objective? So I will go with the same explanation than for drinking, people are irresponsible, but in the US there seem to be a feeling of fear more present than anywhere else. BTW, crime rates might be going down, but they are so much higher than anywhere else that it?s still far, very far from good enough.
Concerning the image of the police, I will say only one thing, in France I never really cared about speeding, often going up to 200km/h on the highway, here in the US, I?ve never gone more than 10 miles over the speed limit (I wouldn?t speed anymore in France though as they have stricter police now).
Finally, to those who said that French were the closest to Americans, I somehow don?t see much resemblance, however, don?t tell a Frenchman that, he would really get pissed off, and the same might be true about an American, French people like to think they are at the opposite of Americans and maybe in that respect they are similar to Americans. That brings me to the point about the French being full of themselves, on that I couldn?t agree more.
I will add something about the difference between the US and the rest, the most important to my eyes because it really affects the entire world, Americans waste more than anybody else and waste everything, food, energy, resources, even brains, waste goes on everywhere but no where to the same extent as in the US, big, big difference. :worried:
I do have a solution to all the problems of the world and I can explain it in one word: EDUCATION
Ok maybe it?s a little bit idealistic but?.
:souka:

 

[Lacan]

coughcoughcoughfullofthemselveshuh?coughcoughcough kashii:

 

[Legato]

desole d'avoir fais une generalisation mais franchement les francais sont reputes pour leur chauvinisme, evidement ils ne sont pas les seuls, tout ce joue a niveau de l'individu.
mais j'ai toujours du mal a accepter la fierte national, francais ou pas.
Would be interested in your point of view on this thread though.

 

[Lacan]

desole d'avoir fais une generalisation mais franchement les francais sont reputes pour leur chauvinisme, evidement ils ne sont pas les seuls, tout ce joue a niveau de l'individu.
mais j'ai toujours du mal a accepter la fierte national, francais ou pas.
Would be interested in your point of view on this thread though.

Bon d'accord on est UN PEU chauvain, mais rien de bien m?chant, on aime notre pays mais on ne se croit pas meilleurs que les autres...
and my point of view may be biased due to the recent relationships between France and he USA, so I won't do any politician talk. The only think that shoked me on my trip last year (Atlanta) was that each ethnic groups are really separated, like several cities in the same city. kashii:

 

[Legato]

I wonder if that could be another difference between the US and the rest, the separation of cities according to ethnic groups, since I never lived in a big city I don't know. Come to think of it, Paris has some districts with a dominant ethnic group, right? But maybe it doesn't feel as separated as in American cities.

 

[lolife]

I think that much more has to do with the fact that immigrants often choose themselves where to live, and I believe this can be seen in most of the world with a large number of immigrants. While I think that kind of segregation is mainly bad, it would be to infringe on their freedom to deny them such a thing.

 

[mad pierrot]

My home city, Chicago, is one of the most segregated cities in the world. Drive a mile down Austin Blvd, and you can literally see the neighborhoods change. Hispanic, African-American, Caucasian, Pakistani. It used to be real estate agents refused to sell houses to people in certain areas. (For example, poor African American families not being let into the suburbs.) Despite all the efforts to change this kind of thing, it still happens, but not so much anymore. I also think immigrants have a tendency to want to stick together. That is, if you're Italian, why not move into little Italy where everyone speaks Italian? What's even stranger is how neighborhoods have changed ethnicity over time. Both my parents come from a part of Chicago that was originally an all-Polish neighborhood. Now, it's practically all Mexican-American. Se habla espanol?