Timothy Snyder: Israel is Poland's child

Tomenable

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Excerpts from one of reviews of Timothy Snyder's book "Black Earth":

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/251753/black-earth-by-timothy-snyder/

"(...) One of the most unusual features of Timothy Snyder’s Black Earth, writes Christopher R. Browning in his New York Review of Books review, is the many pages Snyder devotes to Poland, Zionism, and Palestine. At the center of this story is the short-lived alliance between the Polish government and the Zionist Revisionist Movement during the late 1930s, explored in the book’s first four chapters (the third titled “The Promise of Palestine”) and revisited in the conclusion. After Marshal Józef Piłsudski’s death, the ruling circles in Poland advocated solving the country’s so-called Jewish problem through the emigration of a large part of the Jewish population (estimated at about 3 million on the eve of the war). For that purpose, Snyder recounts, the Polish government lent public support to Revisionist Zionist leaders and paramilitary groups and even financed and trained them. Their hope was that these Jews would wage a campaign of resistance and terror against the British mandatory authorities in Palestine and establish a Jewish state open to large-scale Jewish emigration.

Why is the history of Revisionist Zionism and their Polish supporters so central to a book that claims we have misunderstood the Holocaust and purports to offer a new explanation for it? The Polish-Zionist Revisionist alliance is in fact so central to Snyder’s account that the four main Zionist Revisionist protagonists in his story—Vladimir Jabotinsky, Avraham Stern, Yitzhak Shamir, and Menachem Begin—are mentioned in the book more often than Stalin, Roosevelt, and Churchill combined.

One place to start is by situating Snyder’s discussion of Revisionist Zionism within its context in the book, namely an alliance that never materialized between Germany and Poland. As Snyder tells us, Adolf Hitler had initially hoped to draw Poland into a joint war of aggression against the Soviet Union. After some negotiations, Polish leaders rejected Hitler’s overtures. They determined that maintaining the status quo in Europe would benefit Poland more than war and feared that they would become a German satellite state following the Soviet Union’s defeat. Snyder, however, proposes that Hitler’s dream of a Polish-German alliance failed not merely because of Poland’s political calculations but ultimately because of ideological divisions. The failure to reach an agreement and the ensuing German invasion of Poland, he writes, “resulted from deep differences on the Jewish and Soviet questions that were shrouded for years by Polish diplomacy.” Snyder sums up these differences two pages later: 'The covert essence of German foreign policy in the late 1930s was the ambition to build a vast racial empire in eastern Europe; the covert essence of Polish foreign policy was to create a State of Israel in Palestine from the territories granted by the League of Nations mandate to the British Empire.' (...)"

^^^
Indeed, most of key Zionists who created Israel were citizens of Pre-War Poland. Jewish militias and paramilitary groups in Palestine were trained by Poland with financial support of the Polish government, and later Polish Jewish soldiers from the Polish Army of General Anders joined them (they were allowed to stay in Palestine, while the rest of his army moved to Italy and fought at Monte Cassino). Israel's Army was literally created from former soldiers of the Polish Army.

 
How are now Poland-Israel relations?!


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Gabriele, should i treat you to some coffee? :)

Too hot for coffe, how about an ice cold glass of B... ;) I volunteer.
 
You never stop trying to whitewash or even erase Poland's sorry history of anti-semitism do you? Well, you're not doing a very good job of it, are you? I think your colleagues need to put someone else on the job.

You don't even realize that your quotes from Snyder's book basically show that the Poles, like the Germans, wanted a "Jew free" territory, do you?

Also never occurs to you, because you're totally ignorant of Jewish life in 20th century Europe, including Poland (since the dream of a Jew free Poland came true) and Zionism in particular that Zionists in general didn't represent anything like the majority of the Jews, who were orthodox, religious, and for some of whom the very idea of the establishment of a Jewish secular state was anathema. The MESSIAH was supposed to bring about the re-establishment of the Jewish state, not mere men, and certainly not SECULARISTS. They obviously weren't to be consulted about their preferences?
"http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/orthodox_judaism_history.htm

Or how about the secular Jews who just wanted to be POLES, in POLAND, the assimilationists. Who cares, right, let's just ship them all to Palestine.

"So-called "assimilationist" Jews desired complete integration into European society. They were willing to downplay their Jewish identity and in some cases to abandon traditional views and opinions in an attempt at modernization and assimilation into the modern world. A less extreme form of assimilation was called cultural synthesis. Those in favor of cultural synthesis desired continuity and only moderate evolution, and were concerned that Jews should not lose their identity as a people.[25]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

The response of the Zionists was that the Jews would never be accepted or protected in Europe no matter how much they assimilated. Guess who turned out to be right?

Or how about the Zionists who weren't Revisionist Zionists? Don't know anything about that, do you?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_Zionism

The absolute icing on the cake is that you present the fact that many Zionists were of Polish origin as some sort of tribute to Poland. The reason so many Zionists came from Poland is because POLAND HAD BECOME HELL FOR JEWS. It's like saying isn't the Southern U.S. great? So many leaders of the black Civil Rights Movement came from there!!!!!!!

For God's sake, do you never give up trying to change history? Even the nuanced and painstakingly researched book by Zimmerman which attempts to present an objective and complete look at the relationship between the Polish Resistance and the Jews paints a very mixed view, with just as many if not more horrific accounts as good ones.
https://www.haaretz.com/life/books/.premium-did-the-polish-underground-save-jews-1.5382146

Frankly, I'm not even sure I buy some of the anecdotes. The "good" ones are predominantly from Jews still living in Poland. Given the history, I can see them trying to whitewash history too if they're going to continue to live there.

Anyway, if you have any desire to learn the real truth you should read it, as well as his other books on the general topic, like “Poles, Jews and the Politics of Nationality” and “Contested Memories: Poles and Jews during the Holocaust and its Aftermath.”

https://www.haaretz.com/life/books/.premium-did-the-polish-underground-save-jews-1.5382146
 
You don't even realize that your quotes from Snyder's book basically show that the Poles, like the Germans, wanted a "Jew free" territory, do you?

I was going to comment that, but saw you had already said the same thing. My whole impression after reading these excerpts from Snyder's book is not that the Polish government was trying to "help Jews", but that it was trying to lay the "Jewish problem" on other state's (British Empire) back and by establishing a safe Jewish haven for large-scale emigration the government would manage to successfully get rid of most of their massive Jewish minority without any genocide. Maybe I'm just too skeptical and cynical, but that's how I interpreted it.
 
Many Jews historically wanted to return to their Holy Land, since the destruction of the Temple.

Now you claim that helping them to achieve their dream was somehow "Anti-Semitism", too?

Nobody wanted to force assimilationist and partiotic Polish Jews to emigrate to Palestine.

Giving them an opportunity to go to Israel is not the same as forcing them to go to Israel.

In fact, current Polish President's wife - Agata Duda - as well as current Prime Minister of Poland - Mateusz Morawiecki - are both descended from assimilationist Jews. And Angela has no problem calling Polish President and Prime Minister "Anti-Semitic".

About Morawiecki, "Poland appoints ex-banker with Jewish roots as prime minister":

https://www.timesofisrael.com/poland-appoints-ex-banker-with-jewish-roots-as-prime-minister/

"Yad Vashem gave Agata Duda, Poland’s first lady, documentation on her Jewish relatives":

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-all-mothers-in-israel-are-polish-1.5490193

Sure, Andrzej Duda is Anti-Semitic, so he married a Jewess - and Mateusz Morawiecki is partially Jewish and he signed a Polish-Israeli declaration with Netanyahu, so he is Anti-Semitic too, because he is trying to improve Polish-Israeli relations.

Being a Polish patriot makes you Anti-Semitic, no matter if you are Jewish or Catholic.

Shevah Weiss is probably Anti-Semitic too because he is "a friend of Poland and Poles".

wanted a "Jew free" territory
They did not want a "Jew free" territory, they just wanted to reduce the overpopulation by sending some part (but not all) of the Jewish population and some part of the rural population to colonies. Inter-War Poland was overpopulated, in particular there was agrarian overpopulation (too many farmers and not enough farmlands) in former Galicia (Southern Poland), but also Jewish shtetls in former Russian Poland were overpopulated. So when Poland established the Maritime and Colonial League, the goal of which was to acquire overseas colonies for Poland (they tried for example to obtain Madagascar from France*), they wanted to populate these colonies with Polish Catholics and Jews. Not just with Jews as some people try to claim:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_and_Colonial_League

The Maritime and Colonial League e.g. bought land in Parana, Brazil, for Polish farmers to farm:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morska_Wola

*About Polish plans to colonize Madagascar (among other things):

 
Actually her point in a nutshell is that Poland backed the creation of a Jewish homeland in Israel in order to encourage Polish Jews to move out. The Jews wanted to emigrate somewhere to escape persecution
and the Poles who were anti semetic (not all were, btw. Don't want to offend you) wanted them out.

And not to worry, I would never assume that being a Polish patriot makes you an anti Semite.
 
and the Poles who were anti semetic

Some Poles were Anti-Semitic but some Jews were also Anti-Polish as well. For example Mark Paul wrote about it in his book about Jewish attitudes toward Poles, but I can't link it or I'll get another infraction from Angela. She already removed my post with a link to article (in English) about American Jewish attitudes towards the creation of independent Polish state in 1918. That's called Free Speech.

That article also mentioned, that Polish leaders promised the Jews in 1918 that they were going to firmly combat any traces of Anti-Semitism in future independent Poland, under the condition that Jewish leaders express their support for Polish territorial demands. But many Jews were either Pro-German or Pro-Bolshevik at that time, so the agreement between Polish and Jewish leaders was not reached.
 
I was going to comment that, but saw you had already said the same thing. My whole impression after reading these excerpts from Snyder's book is not that the Polish government was trying to "help Jews", but that it was trying to lay the "Jewish problem" on other state's (British Empire) back and by establishing a safe Jewish haven for large-scale emigration the government would manage to successfully get rid of most of their massive Jewish minority without any genocide. Maybe I'm just too skeptical and cynical, but that's how I interpreted it.

That's the only logical and sane way it CAN be interpreted. Notice no Polish Catholics were to be deported to take care of their over-population problem. Only Jews, of course.

I used to think that the attitudes of the Polish Jews (and their descendants) I've met, and there are many, toward Poland had to be slightly over the top or based on exaggerated stories they'd heard. After my experiences with Tomenable and people like him on the internet, I don't think they are at all.

If anything, I think Zimmerman's book on the behavior of the Polish Underground toward Jews goes overboard in trying to find something positive to report . For every Underground member who treated them decently, there were, I'm sure, 99 who killed them, reported them, stole their shoes and food etc., just as I've always heard. The grandmother of one friend of mine told me how few arms they shared with Jewish resistance fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto, how they didn't help the last fighters escape through the sewers when the ghetto was virtually burned to the ground above their heads, with the sole exception of the Communists, and how often Jews heard them opine that the one good thing the Germans did for them was to get rid of their "Jewish problem".

That's not to mention all the stories I've heard of people offering to shelter them in exchange for all the money or jewels or silver they had, and then still selling them out for a loaf of bread, others volunteering to be "Jew hunters" for the Germans, priests preaching in church that the war was all the fault of the Jews, Christian servants they'd had for years telling the Germans where the Menorahs or silverware were buried for the reward, men, women, and children stoning them and spitting at them as they were driven from their apartments and marched to the ghettos. It's far, far worse than the horrors that went on in Selma or other parts of the south. They spit at those little girls going to an integrated school, but no one volunteered to help people round them up and send them to gas chambers.

For an illuminating first hand account of what life was like in Poland during the war, specifically in Warsaw, there's a wonderful book which looks at the hidden archives of the Ghetto, written as events unfolded, and then hidden before the last razing of the ghetto. It's one of the most shocking and at the same time uplifting books you'll ever read, uplifting because the courage these people showed, their indomitable dedication to learning, the arts, their culture as well as their religion, continuing to run schools, theaters, music concerts, art shows, and at the same time organizing self-help groups, soup kitchens, orphanages for the many orphans, medical centers, you name it, all while there was mass starvation, typhus because of contaminated water, bodies piling up in the streets and later the beginnings of the round-ups and deportations to the east. Instead of giving in to mass hysteria and chaos and a descent into brutality they kept civilization alive in the midst of mass fear and death. It's a testament to the human spirit.

See: Samuel Kassow
"Who Will Write Our History?: Rediscovering a Hidden Archive from the Warsaw Ghetto"


"In 1940, in the Jewish ghetto of Nazi-occupied Warsaw, the Polish historian Emanuel Ringelblum established a clandestine scholarly organization called the Oyneg Shabes to record the experiences of the ghetto's inhabitants. For three years, members of the Oyneb Shabes worked in secret to chronicle the lives of hundereds of thousands as they suffered starvation, disease, and deportation by the Nazis. Shortly before the Warsaw ghetto was emptied and razed in 1943, the Oyneg Shabes buried thousands of documents from this massive archive in milk cans and tin boxes, ensuring that the voice and culture of a doomed people would outlast the efforts of their enemies to silence them. Impeccably researched and thoroughly compelling, Samuel D. Kassow's Who Will Write Our History? tells the tragic story of Ringelblum and his heroic determination to use historical scholarship to preserve the memory of a threatened people.

I know of nothing else like this. These men embodied the essence of civilized humanity confronted by barbarism. My respect and admiration for him and his group really knows no bounds.

The thought that at this late date there are still people trying to erase the reality of their experience is infuriating.


 

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