Genetic study Until death do us part

[torzio]

Rasenna where a tribe from the Pelasgian tribal family branch of NW Greece

IIRC .....the later 14 Epirote tribes where also from that branch ( i need to re-check this )

Both seem odd if one has associated the Etruscans coming from central Europe

 

[Vallicanus]

Rasenna where a tribe from the Pelasgian tribal family branch of NW Greece

IIRC .....the later 14 Epirote tribes where also from that branch ( i need to re-check this )

Both seem odd if one has associated the Etruscans coming from central Europe

Was this Pelasgian theory not just a particular line of Greek speculation about the origins of the Etruscans (Tyrrhenoi to the Greeks).

 

[Viramund]

Very boR1ng y dnas.

 

[Vitruvius]

Was this Pelasgian theory not just a particular line of Greek speculation about the origins of the Etruscans (Tyrrhenoi to the Greeks).

The Greeks themselves didn't agree on where the Etruscans came from. Some such as Hellanicus claimed that they had Pelasgian origins and associated them with the Lemnians. Herodotus thought them instead to be from Lydia in Anatolia. Based off their DNA we know that in Southern Tuscany they show continuity with the preceeding (proto)appenine bronze age populations of Pian Sultano. The IA Etruscan profile is really quite different to both LBA greek islanders and IA anatolians so I think we can say with certainty that they were autocthonous. Dionysus of Halicarnassus had the right idea here:

"For this reason, therefore, I am persuaded that the Pelasgians are a different people from the Tyrrhenians. And I do not believe, either, that the Tyrrhenians were a colony of the Lydians; for they do not use the same language as the latter, nor can it be alleged that, though they no longer speak a similar tongue, they still retain some other indications of their mother country. For they neither worship the same gods as the Lydians nor make use of similar laws or institutions, but in these very respects they differ more from the Lydians than from the Pelasgians. Indeed, those probably come nearest to the truth who declare that the nation migrated from nowhere else, but was native to the country, since it is found to be a very ancient nation and to agree with no other either in its language or in its manner of living."

 

[torzio]

Lemnos was just a trading stopover for Etruscan ships it has no etruscan origins

Lydia and Lycia are more associated with Phyrgians than Pelasgians

I believe they are indigenous to Italy from Tuscany to Naples is their original homeland

they did take corsica from the Greeks ....................so I rule out Corsica

The Liguri , their northern neighbour land stretched from the Rhone river to the etruscan border ............I do not see a link with the Liguri

 

[Vallicanus]

Lemnos was just a trading stopover for Etruscan ships it has no etruscan origins

Lydia and Lycia are more associated with Phyrgians than Pelasgians

I believe they are indigenous to Italy from Tuscany to Naples is their original homeland

they did take corsica from the Greeks ....................so I rule out Corsica

The Liguri , their northern neighbour land stretched from the Rhone river to the etruscan border ............I do not see a link with the Liguri

I believe that Etruscans were basically indigenous but very strongly influenced by the Orientalising culture of the Greek-speaking lands.

Certain aspects of Etruscan religion like the haruspices and the god/hero Tarchun (which gave us Tarquinii) must be imports from Anatolia but then Christianity is of Levantine derivation too.

On the other hand the Rhaetian god Tina may correspond to the Etruscan Tinia.

 

[Stefano]

The data has been released.

ENA Browser

ENA Browser

www.ebi.ac.uk

Is someone capable of getting something out of them? They are the first Cisalpine Gauls we have and it will be interesting to see their composition on various K36, K13, qpAdm and G25...
I wrote on Eurogenes Blog asking for G25 coordinates but an user replied: "these are BAM files which Davidski AFAIK doesn't process. Someone would have to create genotype data files from them first. You must use a genotype caller in order to obtain genotypes from a .bam file. It's not possible to 'convert' .bam to genotypes. There's a lot of options, but maybe using bcftools is the most simple "
It will be nice if some good soul is capable of compiling them in the proper format and send them to Davidski.

 

[Vitruvius]

The data has been released.

ENA Browser

ENA Browser

www.ebi.ac.uk

Is someone capable of getting something out of them? They are the first Cisalpine Gauls we have and it will be interesting to see their composition on various K36, K13, qpAdm and G25...
I wrote on Eurogenes Blog asking for G25 coordinates but an user replied: "these are BAM files which Davidski AFAIK doesn't process. Someone would have to create genotype data files from them first. You must use a genotype caller in order to obtain genotypes from a .bam file. It's not possible to 'convert' .bam to genotypes. There's a lot of options, but maybe using bcftools is the most simple "
It will be nice if some good soul is capable of compiling them in the proper format and send them to Davidski.

Would @Salento or @Jovialis be familiar with this?

 

[Vitruvius]

After some further reading and investigation it seems that we already have abundant evidence that the practice of animal/human co-burials - particularly that with horses - was already common to specifically Verona before the Seminario burials of 3rd-1st century BC and also before the Transalpine Gallic Bellovesian invasion of 5th/4th century. It is found throughout the 190 burials of Colombaria, Verona necropolis which was in use from the 10th century BC to the 5th century BC. Colombaria's material culture during this time period is associated most heavily with the Este culture which would go on to develop into the historically attested Veneti (who have also been attested to facilitate horse burials with humans in other locations). There are also indications of Etruscan influence as well.

La necropoli della Colombara ai raggi X

Un volume che per la prima volta riunisce in modo dettagliato e completo tutte le ricerche archeologiche che si sono svolte a partire... Scopri di più

www.larena.it

On the flip side, I cannot find anything associating Seminario's 3rd to 1st century burials with the Cenomani at all. There are a few one to two word inscriptions found on pottery of local manufacture which uses the "lepontic alphabet" (which is identical to that of other N. Italic alphabets) along with usage of an older "paleosamnite" alphabet as well. Nothing from what I have found indicates this population to have transalpine origins and the idea that the preexisting population prior to roman control of Verona was transalpine seems to be just an assumption on the part of the authors. Unless the genetics of these types end up clustering clearly French-Gallic-like I am more so anticipating continuity from specifically older Italic populations who were already performing the same exact type of burial customs many centuries prior.

 

[Stefano]

I managed to convert 2 of the BAM files to 23andme raw data format using WGSExtract.
Unfortunately after i restarted the PC today, for some reason the program does not work anymore. it keeps saying "INVALID HEADER" when selecting the BAM files. i even tried to re-download them.
If someone wants to try here is the installer https://wgsextract.github.io/
and here the BAMs https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB63352?show=related-records
So now, one of the 2 raw data i got is really small and low coverage, the other is decent.

Here it is

3779s.hg19_sorted_CombinedKit.txt

Shared with Jumpshare

jumpshare.com

Simulated g25 from raw data using this https://www.exploreyourdna.com/rawtosimg25.aspx
CisalpineGaul_simulated_g25_scaled,0.12431,0.148961,0.041693,-0.000243,0.04654,-0.002854,0.000567,0.003719,0.019368,0.030393,-0.002852,0.005666,-0.0108,0.001443,-0.00644,-0.003143,0.003952,-0.000379,0.00322,-0.005928,-0.003865,-0.002557,0.000787,-0.004603,-0.001261

TUR_Barcin_N: 58.61 %
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara: 29.58 %
WHG: 11.62 %
MAR_Taforalt: 0.19 %

Distance to: CisalpineGaul_simulated_g25_scaled
0.02072854 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.02330942 Spanish_Menorca
0.02344690 Spanish_Mallorca
0.02350668 Spanish_Baleares
0.02427447 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
0.02472052 Italian_Veneto
0.02529940 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
0.02538017 Spanish_Girona
0.02556982 Spanish_Barcelones
0.02578240 Italian_Bergamo
0.02634774 Spanish_Pirineu
0.02645921 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
0.02648412 Spanish_Eivissa
0.02649972 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
0.02710578 Italian_Northeast
0.02751564 Spanish_Lleida
0.02767254 Spanish_Penedes
0.02811645 Spanish_Valencia
0.02834991 Spanish_Cataluna
0.02952521 Spanish_Cantabria
0.02958048 Spanish_Castello
0.02961410 Spanish_Murcia
0.03020494 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.03045957 French_Auvergne
0.03078674 French_Provence


Distance to: CisalpineGaul_simulated_g25_scaled
0.01757812 SRB_BA
0.01828934 HRV_IA
0.01945620 CZE_LBA_Knoviz_o3
0.02279324 AUT_IA_La_Tene
0.02337043 SVN_EIA
0.02350412 HRV_EIA
0.02386863 HUN_La_Tene
0.02455299 ITA_Etruscan_Casenovole
0.02490596 HUN_MBA_Vatya
0.02504431 HUN_IA_La_Tene
0.02605650 HRV_LIA_La_Tene
0.02647629 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros
0.02701471 HRV_Bezdanjaca_BA
0.02705574 DEU_Roman
0.02729670 ITA_Etruscan
0.02756998 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.02781036 SRB_BA_Maros
0.02796691 ITA_Etruscan_Volterrra
0.02817529 HRV_BA
0.02890016 HRV_MBA
0.03018228 ITA_Etruscan_Tarquinia
0.03021870 CHE_IA
0.03076353 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.03145492 SVK_IA_Vekerzug
0.03203831 SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean

 

[Vallicanus]

I am at a distance of ~3.44 from this Cisalpine Gaul simulation which looks very Triveneto/Bergamask/Catalan (in the widest sense of eastern Spanish).

 

[Vitruvius]

I am at a distance of ~3.44 from this Cisalpine Gaul simulation which looks very Triveneto/Bergamask/Catalan (in the widest sense of eastern Spanish).

This individual is absolutely Raetic/Euganean. They are almost identical to the modern average of Trentino and do not resemble the Transalpine gauls found in France. They cluster with modern Northern Italics, IA/BA Northern adriatic populations and Modern Balearic islanders, some spanish populations and also most interestingly Vatya culture BA hungarians. If the rest look like this, we will have a confirmation that the IA Etruscans and Latins of Central Italy were not identical to Northern Italics and instead formed a cline with them.

Gauls of France look to average about 0.054 in comparison

 

[torzio]

use the cisalpine sample with the other samples of the area...............I get

Distance to: Veritus_scaled
0.02098513 Liburnian_G25_scaled
0.03530015 Dalmatian_G25
0.03531488 CisalpineGaul_simulated_g25_scaled
0.03535231 Japodes_G25
0.12676167 ITA_Remedello_BA
0.37858301 ITA_Villabruna

 

[Vallicanus]

use the cisalpine sample with the other samples of the area...............I get

Distance to: Veritus_scaled
0.02098513 Liburnian_G25_scaled
0.03530015 Dalmatian_G25
0.03531488 CisalpineGaul_simulated_g25_scaled
0.03535231 Japodes_G25
0.12676167 ITA_Remedello_BA
0.37858301 ITA_Villabruna

You are actually slightly further away from the Cisalpine Gaul simulation than I am! I'm at ~3.44.

 

[Vitruvius]

I noticed that the main differentiator between most modern Northern Italians and this IA/Roman era Raetic sample is the distinct lack of Caucasian ancestry and slightly higher WHG like ancestry which is why this individual seems to cluster closer to Balearic islanders than most modern Northern Italians. Assuming we continue to see this pattern and that the simulation is accurate, it is possible that modern northern Italians retain some Aegean like influence that was transmitted from the Roman Imperial Era. This type of introgression would characteristically drop WHG and elevate Neolithic Caucasian input. Presumably this would have occurred during the Roman colonization of Po Valley, and we also see this type of Greco/Imperial-IA Italic cline reflected in EMA Torino.

I made a simple two way model which seems to fit the entire Italian populace extremely tightly (Excluding Sardinians). In the past I have said that modern Italians with the exception of Sardinians are a simple cline between BA/IA northern Italics and the Aegean like Roman Imperials. We are only using a simulated sample of one, so nothing is obviously definitive yet, but this new sample now lends credence to this theory.

 

[Vallicanus]

I noticed that the main differentiator between most modern Northern Italians and this IA/Roman era Raetic sample is the distinct lack of Caucasian ancestry and slightly higher WHG like ancestry which is why this individual seems to cluster closer to Balearic islanders than most modern Northern Italians. Assuming we continue to see this pattern and that the simulation is accurate, it is possible that modern northern Italians retain some Aegean like influence that was transmitted from the Roman Imperial Era. This type of introgression would characteristically drop WHG and elevate Neolithic Caucasian input which is what we see in modern Northern Italians. Presumably this would have occurred during the Roman colonizations, and we see this type of cline reflected in EMA torino.

I made a simple two way model which seems to fit the entire Italian populace extremely tightly (Excluding Sardinians). In the past I have said that modern Italians with the exception of Sardinians are a simple cline between BA/IA northern Italics and the Aegean like Roman Imperials. We are only using a simulated sample of one, so nothing is obviously definitive yet, but this new sample now lends credence to this theory.


View attachment 15586

Do you have co-ordinates I can use for this calculator?

 

[Vitruvius]

Do you have co-ordinates I can use for this calculator?

Of course.

Raetic_Verona_Seminario_Vescoville_300BC-0_Sim,0.12431,0.148961,0.041693,-0.000243,0.04654,-0.002854,0.000567,0.003719,0.019368,0.030393,-0.002852,0.005666,-0.0108,0.001443,-0.00644,-0.003143,0.003952,-0.000379,0.00322,-0.005928,-0.003865,-0.002557,0.000787,-0.004603,-0.001261

ITA_Rome_Imperial_0-300AD,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141

 

[Vallicanus]

Of course.

Raetic_Verona_Seminario_Vescoville_300BC-0_Sim,0.12431,0.148961,0.041693,-0.000243,0.04654,-0.002854,0.000567,0.003719,0.019368,0.030393,-0.002852,0.005666,-0.0108,0.001443,-0.00644,-0.003143,0.003952,-0.000379,0.00322,-0.005928,-0.003865,-0.002557,0.000787,-0.004603,-0.001261

ITA_Rome_Imperial_0-300AD,0.1039821,0.1495156,-0.0235307,-0.0574065,0.0045265,-0.0204055,-0.0011946,-0.0051488,0.0006604,0.0196549,0.0034575,0.0025539,-0.0040602,-0.0014737,-0.0081715,-0.0014474,0.0035992,0.000454,0.0012178,-0.0032854,-0.0025579,0.0020454,-0.0006985,-0.0004845,0.0004141

I am 72.5pc Raetic_Verona and 27.5pc Rome_Imperial. Distance: 0.01938708.

 

[Vitruvius]

I am 72.5pc Raetic_Verona and 27.5pc Rome_Imperial. Distance: 0.01938708.

Yep. That's characteristic of what I would expect from a North Tuscan. You fit similar to Ligurians with a clear majority of North Italic IA ancestry.

 

[torzio]

You are actually slightly further away from the Cisalpine Gaul simulation than I am! I'm at ~3.44.

Thks

My Maternal line from 1600 onwards is from Asolo and Fonte in Veneto

My paternal line is from around towns near Montebelluna Veneto .................and before this from Val id Non area of Trentino circa 1580

Val di Non - Trentino - Italy

The Val di Non valley is known above all for its tasty apples grown at high altitudes. An enchanting scenery with quaint villages and mighty mountains is waiting for you.

www.trentino.com

so I question the Cenomani G25 as beinng with Rhaetic, when their capital was in Eastern Lombardy , Brescia city