Immigration Wave of (minor) attacks by poor immigrants hits UK, France and Sweden this week

[Maciamo]

People living outside these countries may not have noticed these events, but the made the national headlines in their respective countries.

The worst incidents happened in several Stockholm suburbs, where dozen of cars were torched while schools and shops were set on fire. The riots started in the surburb of Husby, which has a a large population of Muslim immigrants and refugees from Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Somalia. The Stockholm riots lasted for five nights in a row, reminding of similar events in French banlieues in 2005 and 2007, in Brussels in 2006 and in various parts of England in 2011, without forgetting of course the Madrid 2004 terrorist attacks and London terrorist attack of July 2005.

Many Swedish citizens confessed being shocked and surprised that such violent riots could take place in their peaceful country. Sweden has a long tradition of political neutrality on the international scene and tolerance towards other cultures. It is also the world's largest per capita contributor of development aid to poor countries. Sweden is the only nation where donations exceed 1% of the GDP. Furthermore, a large proportion of Sweden's foreigners are political refugees rather than the economic immigrants (Moroccans, Turks, Pakistani, Indians, various sub-Saharan Africans) found in most of Western Europe. This might have comforted Swedes into believing that they were relatively immune from violent resentment from Third World immigrants, thinking of themselves as both generous and exemplary in their conduct. If Muslims are revolting even in Sweden, no country is safe.


On 22 May, PM David Cameron announced a possible terrorist attack in the London suburb of Woolwich after a British Army soldier was bloodily butchered to death with knives, a cleaver and a machete by two attackers near the Royal Artillery Barracks. Both attackers were British Muslim converts of Nigerian descent and raised as Christians.

On 25 May, another (French) soldier was stabbed in the La Defense business district of Paris, in what looks uncannily like a replay inspired by the attack in London three days earlier. The French authorities are still looking for the culprit.

 

[nordicwarrior]

People living outside these countries may not have noticed these events, but the made the national headlines in their respective countries.

The worst incidents happened in several Stockholm suburbs, where dozen of cars were torched while schools and shops were set on fire. The riots started in the surburb of Husby, which has a a large population of Muslim immigrants and refugees from Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Somalia. The Stockholm riots lasted for five nights in a row, reminding of similar events in French banlieues in 2005 and 2007, in Brussels in 2006 and in various parts of England in 2011, without forgetting of course the Madrid 2004 terrorist attacks and London terrorist attack of July 2005.

Many Swedish citizens confessed being shocked and surprised that such violent riots could take place in their peaceful country. Sweden has a long tradition of political neutrality on the international scene and tolerance towards other cultures. It is also the world's largest per capita contributor of development aid to poor countries. Sweden is the only nation where donations exceed 1% of the GDP. Furthermore, a large proportion of Sweden's foreigners are political refugees rather than the economic immigrants (Moroccans, Turks, Pakistani, Indians, various sub-Saharan Africans) found in most of Western Europe. This might have comforted Swedes into believing that they were relatively immune from violent resentment from Third World immigrants, thinking of themselves as both generous and exemplary in their conduct. If Muslims are revolting even in Sweden, no country is safe.


On 22 May, PM David Cameron announced a possible terrorist attack in the London suburb of Woolwich after a British Army soldier was bloodily butchered to death with knives, a cleaver and a machete by two attackers near the Royal Artillery Barracks. Both attackers were British Muslim converts of Nigerian descent and raised as Christians.

On 25 May, another (French) soldier was stabbed in the La Defense business district of Paris, in what looks uncannily like a replay inspired by the attack in London three days earlier. The French authorities are still looking for the culprit.

These events are well covered in the U.S. This is very concerning news.

 

[LeBrok]

There are two different problems here.
One is sporadic suicide bombers or assassins killing the "enemies" of their faith. In this case, no matter what, there will be some number of young people finding purpose of their life in "ultimate sacrifice". We should put more emphases on fighting the sources of hateful information, plus making sure we are very inclusive to all, and it should start in schools. If we make a division for "us and them", there is a problem, there is "them" to fight against. If we raise our kids as members of one group, if there is only "we", there is no "they" to fight.
I don't mean that we have to blame ourselves for all of this, there are surely very traditional parents too in this equation, and some people are genuinely screwed up and beyond help. Every year there is a new idiot in America killing tens of people in schools, malls or movie theatres. Breivik in Norway, rings the bell too. (I wonder, what would happen in Norway if he was a muslim?). From recent Myanmar news, we know how fast "peaceful buddhist monks" are eager and ready to kill.
Overall, as sad as it is, situation pales in comparison with domestic crimes. Tens of thousands more people die every year from hands of their "loved" ones than from muslim fanatics in Western Hemisphere.

Second problem, riots in Sweden, is more serious one. Here we have an army of unsatisfied young man ready to fight. Surely sign of Sweden failed emigration policy. Although in this case we are talking about economic problem more than anything else. Obviously some emigrants are not fitting job profiles available in Sweden. Perhaps too many came not to work but to collect social assistance.
Well, good news is that nobody was reported dead during recent riots (at least from what I read). Seems that it happened more from frustration of young people than hate and fanatizm.

 

[nordicwarrior]

At some point we in the West are going to have to face the fact that fundamentalist Islam is a religion and a political system rolled into one.

I don't have the answers here... but I think a wise course of action would be to limit or slow down the number of migrants entering the West from Islamic nations until we somehow get a better handle on the situation.

 

[hope]

These type of incidents are indeed worthy of concern. Yet they are nothing new, unfortunately.

When ANY group sees itself as THEright group and all others are wrong or misguided, problems occur.
This is something that happens in other faiths also..not only with Islam.

We have always had those who believe their way to God, is the only way..the right way. When the thought is that, one certain way, one certain religion, one observance of belief, is the true way.. that thought becomes dangerous.

LeBrok noted in his post that we should teach our children... show them not to view as "them and us". That is a good opinion and this is where a change could certainly happen. The problem here however, is not with those who would agree with this, but rather with those who would not..those who believe there can be no common ground.

However, let`s not forget there are many, within the different religious or political groups who, are not in agreement with such actions as listed in O.P. whether it be a result of religious or economic problems.

 

[hope]

At some point we in the West are going to have to face the fact that fundamentalist Islam is a religion and a political system rolled into one.

I don't have the answers here... but I think a wise course of action would be to limit or slow down the number of migrants entering the West from Islamic nations until we somehow get a better handle on the situation.

But not every-one is a "fundamentalist"......how would we know who to "let" in? Also we should remember, there are some who have carried out crimes that were not immigrants but born in the country.

 

[Boss]

These type of incidents are indeed worthy of concern. Yet they are nothing new, unfortunately.

When ANY group sees itself as THEright group and all others are wrong or misguided, problems occur.
This is something that happens in other faiths also..not only with Islam.

We have always had those who believe their way to God, is the only way..the right way. When the thought is that, one certain way, one certain religion, one observance of belief, is the true way.. that thought becomes dangerous.

LeBrok noted in his post that we should teach our children... show them not to view as "them and us". That is a good opinion and this is where a change could certainly happen. The problem here however, is not with those who would agree with this, but rather with those who would not..those who believe there can be no common ground.

However, let`s not forget there are many, within the different religious or political groups who, are not in agreement with such actions as listed in O.P. whether it be a result of religious or economic problems.

I guess I don't see how any serious belief (or set of beliefs), not just Islam, can avoid being seen by those who are faithful to it as THE right belief. If I believe the earth revolves around the sun, then I think this is THE right belief. Anyone who denies it, is wrong.

But I don't regard such an attitude as leading to anything sinister (necessarily). The early (deeply) religious liberals who preached religious tolerance really thought that THE right religion was Christianity. They really did believe that it was True that Christ was the Son of God. Whoever denied that, was wrong. But they also thought that those who disagreed, even if they themselves thought they were tragically wrong, had to be tolerated.

So IMO this is not a problem that is inherent in religion. It is a problem that you can find in a particular kind of people (namely, the intolerant) everywhere in the world and in any group. Some groups like the fundamentalist Muslims are unfortunately more active in expressing their intolerance (as are many Christian fundamentalists in the US).

I don't know what the solution is but, as you said, nordic's solution (limiting Islamic migration) is woefully inadequate.

 

[oriental]

The deep recession makes marginal people desperate when the support system tips over to the emergency situation. I read that Swedish officials ccame to Canada seeing how Canada handles the huge immigration and refugee system so well. Swedes left the refugees to their own device whereas Canada has a support system with institutions that help integrate refugees with education, housing, language, etc. Refugees are not equipped to adapt to the western society right away and this is where Canada excels. Having had Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister helped when he espoused multiculturalism and was more humane.

 

[hope]

I guess I don't see how any serious belief (or set of beliefs), not just Islam, can avoid being seen by those who are faithful to it as THE right belief. If I believe the earth revolves around the sun, then I think this is THE right belief. Anyone who denies it, is wrong.

But I don't regard such an attitude as leading to anything sinister (necessarily). The early (deeply) religious liberals who preached religious tolerance really thought that THE right religion was Christianity. They really did believe that it was True that Christ was the Son of God. Whoever denied that, was wrong. But they also thought that those who disagreed, even if they themselves thought they were tragically wrong, had to be tolerated.

So IMO this is not a problem that is inherent in religion. It is a problem that you can find in a particular kind of people (namely, the intolerant) everywhere in the world and in any group. Some groups like the fundamentalist Muslims are unfortunately more active in expressing their intolerance (as are many Christian fundamentalists in the US).

I don't know what the solution is but, as you said, nordic's solution (limiting Islamic migration) is woefully inadequate.

I have not expressed myself correctly.....I was in fact talking about fundamentalism...and intolerance, with regard to religion. Wherever it is found.

 

[Yetos]

crisis in Europe will raise this kind of attacks.

the intrustry of view and glamour, is giving promises,
people pay money to slavemerchants, to manage to go to Europe's paradise,

crisis hits the jobs and creates unemployment, the less the jobs the more newcoming immigrants have a chance, so that kind of attacks will be increased in the feature, cause some believe that 'only the faithfull' must survive, and see Europeans as Devils, cause they did not manage to make their 'American dream'

just think, a young boy which was raised in poverty, to work and give all his money to a slavemerchant to bring and find him a work in European paradise, and after 10 years in Europe, all day work and worship in monsk, to see that back in his country people have more and live better, and he finds his future doom. in that the term is ΚΑΘΑΡΣΙΣ after Greek tragedies, he call for God and makes his final move to be accepted and loved by his God.
In the name of God, Allah, etc the biggest massacres and attcks have been done,
at least if I kill a 'dirty non beleiver', god will keep a place for me in paradise afterlife.

 

[nordicwarrior]

...I don't know what the solution is but, as you said, nordic's solution (limiting Islamic migration) is woefully inadequate.

Number one, please don't diss my suggestion unless you offer up at least one of your own.

Number two, I agree that we have to do more to curb this violence. My restriction on new Muslim immigration into the West is only a start. We have to do more to tackle this problem, if it is indeed possible to correct at all.

 

[LeBrok]

The deep recession makes marginal people desperate when the support system tips over to the emergency situation. I read that Swedish officials ccame to Canada seeing how Canada handles the huge immigration and refugee system so well. Swedes left the refugees to their own device whereas Canada has a support system with institutions that help integrate refugees with education, housing, language, etc. Refugees are not equipped to adapt to the western society right away and this is where Canada excels. Having had Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister helped when he espoused multiculturalism and was more humane.

I would like to mention that Canada has no forced integration policies. Emigrants come here and they are basically free to do whatever they want from day one. Maybe this inclusiveness/equality, tolerance and lack of social pressures makes people to feel good and free, therefore takes away ammunition for radicalisation. On other hand we are getting huge amount of smart emigrants, so I guess it helps big time. We don't have ghettos of desperately poor emigrants.

Mayor of my city, Calgary, is Muslim gay. I think it speaks for itself, lol.

 

[Maciamo]

Second problem, riots in Sweden, is more serious one. Here we have an army of unsatisfied young man ready to fight. Surely sign of Sweden failed emigration policy. Although in this case we are talking about economic problem more than anything else. Obviously some emigrants are not fitting job profiles available in Sweden. Perhaps too many came not to work but to collect social assistance.
Well, good news is that nobody was reported dead during recent riots (at least from what I read). Seems that it happened more from frustration of young people than hate and fanatizm.

Sweden has a very high percentage of political refugees, mostly from the Middle East and Somalia. According to the 2010 immigration statistics, the highest number of non-European foreign residents in Sweden were from:

1) Iraq
2) Iran
3) Turkey (most Kurdistan)
4) Somalia
5) Lebanon
6) Syria
7) India
8) Afghanistan
9) Vietnam
10) Ethiopia

Almost all of them came as refugees escaping war in their country in the last 3 or 4 decades (the Vietnamese being the first, I suppose).

As you can see the Swedish immigration landscape is very different from Western European countries, where the vast majority of immigrants from developing countries came from former colonies or came for economic (rather than political reasons). Economic reasons include finding a job with a higher salary than at home (and sending money back home every month) but also benefiting from the generous social security, especially in Romance-speaking countries. War refugees have another excuse. All they should wish for in their host countries is to live at peace and not fear being killed or wounded. Once such desperate people start to revolt in one of the world's most peaceful countries we have a problem.

 

[Maciamo]

There are two different problems here.
One is sporadic suicide bombers or assassins killing the "enemies" of their faith. In this case, no matter what, there will be some number of young people finding purpose of their life in "ultimate sacrifice". We should put more emphases on fighting the sources of hateful information, plus making sure we are very inclusive to all, and it should start in schools. If we make a division for "us and them", there is a problem, there is "them" to fight against. If we raise our kids as members of one group, if there is only "we", there is no "they" to fight.

The first step in preventing the "us vs them" mentality is to prohibit schools from having a religious affiliation and the propaganda programme that goes with it. Islamic schools are legal virtually everywhere in Western Europe. I know for a fact the countries like Belgium and France even finance Islamic schools with public money, simply because Muslims said that they were entitled to equal rights as Christians, as Catholic schools in both countries are fully financed by the state, like any other school. This is the root of the problem. (In the same line mosques receive public funds too just like churches.) If you want to get rid of religious cleavages it is vital that all schools be neutral about religion.

We cannot accept even a few private schools teaching their students to feel like a separate group from other citizens in the country because they regard religious teachings as superior to the law, the government and society as a whole. So not only must governments stop funding religious schools, but religious schools, even private, should be banned altogether. I am not naive enough to know that it won't happen though, because there will always be weak politicians bending to pressure groups, and politicians who have religious convictions of their own that they are ready to defend. And the latter will always be elected as long as their are religious people to vote for them. In other words we are doomed.

 

[Maciamo]

But I don't regard such an attitude as leading to anything sinister (necessarily). The early (deeply) religious liberals who preached religious tolerance really thought that THE right religion was Christianity. They really did believe that it was True that Christ was the Son of God. Whoever denied that, was wrong. But they also thought that those who disagreed, even if they themselves thought they were tragically wrong, had to be tolerated.

I disagree. The most liberal countries are generally those who are the least religious (e.g. Scandinavia). Even the USA was founded on liberal beliefs championed by people like Jefferson, who was not religious and even anti-clerical. The French Revolution was the biggest élan of social liberalism the world had ever witnessed (and remains unmatched), and it took place on a background of atheism, agnosticism and deism.

The most socially conservative people in countries like France, Britain or the USA are almost inevitably strongly religious people. Social freedom and religions are, in most cases, mutually exclusive.

 

[Maciamo]

The deep recession makes marginal people desperate when the support system tips over to the emergency situation. I read that Swedish officials ccame to Canada seeing how Canada handles the huge immigration and refugee system so well. Swedes left the refugees to their own device whereas Canada has a support system with institutions that help integrate refugees with education, housing, language, etc. Refugees are not equipped to adapt to the western society right away and this is where Canada excels. Having had Pierre Trudeau as Prime Minister helped when he espoused multiculturalism and was more humane.

The problem with this theory is that Sweden is not in deep recession. It is one of the countries in Europe that weathered the best the economic crisis over the last few years. Sweden's public debt is only 32% of GDP and GDP has been growing by nearly 1% per quarter in average in the last four years. If the recession was really the cause of the riots, then why did they happen in Sweden and not in countries worst hit by the crisis with a lot badly integrated Muslim immigrants, like in Britain, France or Spain ?

 

[Maciamo]

Mayor of my city, Calgary, is Muslim gay. I think it speaks for itself, lol.

It's not possible considering that Islam prohibits homosexuality, in some cases on pain of death. And a person cannot rightfully belong to a religious community (in this case Islam) if the rest of the community doesn't accept him/her.

 

[Kardu]

Thinking that there is only We is a delusion and naivete.
(They were brainwashing us for 70 years that we are one Soviet nation. It failed.. as it was unnatural... the reality put everything in its place but via lot of bloodshed...)

 

[ElHorsto]

This is all very good, but there is the problem that the "us vs them" thing is probably more a "religious vs. non-religious" rather than "muslim vs. christian" thing. Maybe it is not even that, if @oriental is right, and I think he is too. The economic situation in Sweden is relatively well, but there have been economic declines in Sweden too (on a high level). This happened more on a scale of 25 years rather than last 5 years. The absolute economic welfare level is probably less important than the relative change to the more negative. If a society has built up during very good economic times, it can still be threatened by just good times (good is worse than very good), a "very-good-weather-society".
Ghettos and Banlieus are also known to be bad for integration, and I was surprised to see them in Malmö, because Sweden was often mentioned as a prime example of migrant integration due to lack of Ghettos. So this information from the media was probably wrong. On the other hand, I haven't seen simial ghettos in Göteborg. Everything seemed very neat and peaceful there. I'm not able to fully explain these events in Sweden, just guessing.

 

[ElHorsto]

Religion is often merely a proxy and bearer of cultural identity, especially during conflicts. Hence, if a state is aggressively atheistic, it might be misinterpreted as a cultural or even ethnic attack by some.