Were the Irish pure R1b before the Viking and British invasions ?

[Maciamo]

I have scrutinised FamilyTreeDNA's Ireland Y-DNA Project and noticed that practically all the Irish surnames belonged to haplogroup R1b, while almost all members of other haplogroups had English, Scottish, or occasionally even Welsh surnames.

The Germanic haplogroup R1b-U106 is also dominated by English and Lowland Scottish surnames, as is to be expected.

Irish do turn up in some other haplogroups, but represent under 5% of the total. It has been estimated that the number of non-paternity events in most populations ranged from 2 to 15% - depending on how religious or sexually liberated the culture is. An average of 5% was estimated for the United Kingdom by the Institute of Human Genetics in Newcastle.

The extremely rare R1b1* (P25), a very old branch of R1b thought to date back to the Palaeolithic period (in the Middle East of Central Asia) is virtually absent from Europe, except in Ireland, which has an unusually high frequency of 1% of the population. Interestingly, the surnames are very mixed, with roughly one third of Irish, one third of Scottish and one third of English names. Could it be that this haplogroup found its way to the British Isles as early as the Mesolithic or the Neolithic ?

Only one haplogroup outside R1b does have more native Irish surnames than imported ones : I2a. There had to be at least one other haplogroup pre-dating the Bronze-age arrival of R1b-P312 in Ireland. It would be almost unthinkable that the entire Neolithic male population of the island was wiped out by the R1b invaders. The most likely candidates were I2a (now called I2a1 in the ISOGG nomenclature), I2b (ISOGG I2a2) and G2a. I2a is the assumed lineage of Mesolithic southern Europeans, I2b of the Mesolithic Central Europeans, and G2a (and E1b1b ?) of the Neolithic farmers.

One question that was still unresolved is whether the Mesolithic British Isles belonged to I2a, I2b or another type of I ? The other question was how much impact did the G2a (and E1b1b) Neolithic farmers have in the British Isles. I expected that they had a considerable impact in Great Britain, but wasn't so sure about Ireland.

Out of 51 members of haplogroup G in the project, only four surnames (Lannin, Murphy, McCauley, McQuate) could be considered Irish - although McQuate and McCauley can also be Scottish. The vast majority of I2b members have Germanic names.

E1b1b is even more extreme, with only 5 native Irish surnames out of 96 members.

I counted 87 members of I2a (I-P37.2) or I2a1 in the Ireland Y-DNA Project, out of which approximately 30 were clearly non-Irish surnames.

Based on the modern population, it can be said that the native Irish almost completely lack both G2a and I2b, but have a fair amount of I2a.

I2a is therefore the only haplogroup aside from R1b to have a majority of Irish surnames. It is enough for me to consider that Ireland before the 9th century was probably exclusively populated by R1b (98%) and I2a (2%) lineages.

Once we have determined that these are the only ancient Irish haplogroups, we can estimate what was the real genetic impact of the Vikings, Normans, English and Scots on the modern Irish population. The project has 4700 members to this day, out of which 910 belong to other haplogroups than R1b or I2a. Within R1b, roughly 125 members belong to R1b-U106. Considering that R1b-L21 is as common in Britain as R1b-U106, it would be fair to add another 125 members to the count, which is also approximately the number of Germanic surnames turning up in the Irish R1b-L21.

In total, that is 1160 foreign lineages out of 4700, or 24.7% of the Irish population. This is far more than I expected. But of course that is only paternal lineages, which foreign invaders have surely spread much more abundantly than maternal lineages. I did not calculate the proportion of foreign autosomal DNA in the Irish gene pool, but I would guess between something like 15% (more in Northern Ireland and around Dublin, of course - perhaps over 30%).


The break-up of Germanic lineages in Ireland is also interesting, because quite different from that of England or Scotland, and much closer to that of Scandinavia. I counted approximately :

- hg I1 : 250 members (50%)
- hg R1a : 125 members (25%)
- hg R1b-U106 : 125 members (25%)

Nowadays, Sweden comes to closest to these proportions between the three main Germanic haplogroups. The Normans were of Danish origin, though modern Denmark has as much R1b as I1 and R1a combined. It's possible that the Norman nobility had a considerably higher percentage of I1 due to a founder effect. This also appears to be the case in Sicily.

That would mean that the 12th-century Normans had a remarkably big impact on the modern Irish gene pool - probably much more than the Lowland Scots and the English settlers who came from the 16th century onwards.

Another possibility is that Norwegian Vikings also had a considerable (and mostly unrecorded) impact on the Irish population. After all, it has been recently estimated that nearly on quarter of the modern Icelandic population carry Irish (or Highland Scottish) Y-DNA, and that the peak of R1b-L21 in Southwest Norway is also due to the import of Gaelic slaves to Norway in Viking times. So it would only be logical that the Norwegian only left a major genetic print on the Irish population. After all, many places in Ireland, including counties (Longford, Waterford, Wexford) have (Anglicised) Viking names.

If we add hg I2b into the mix, it looks even stranger :

- hg I1 : 250 members (35%)
- hg I2b : 225 members (31%)
- hg R1a : 125 members (17%)
- hg R1b-U106 : 125 members (17%)

Where did all that I2b come from ?

 

[MOESAN]

interesting
but I have not well understood the calculation for the 125 R1b-L21 attributed to english or germanic origin people - is it based on the respective %s of L21 compared to other R1b in Ireland and England?

 

[sparkey]

Really interesting observations, Maciamo, thanks. I'm curious also as to how similar the patterns would be for the Welsh.

One question that was still unresolved is whether the Mesolithic British Isles belonged to I2a, I2b or another type of I ?

I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.

Some I2a1a could have arrived in Ireland during the Neolithic, particularly I2a1a-Gen, which could have arrived there around 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and is a bit younger than that in terms of TMCRA (but older than the I2a1b2 IIRC). Again, this doesn't say a lot about Mesolithic continuity.

As for I2 M223+, it's a bit messy but the only one that seems to be worth mentioning is M284+, which is very old in Britain and almost certainly Mesolithic or Neolithic there, and there may be some hope for an ancient presence in Ireland, too. In fact, the greatest outlier (marked as "Gordon") is split between a Gordon family from England and a Dunphy family from Ireland. The "Isles-Scot" branch is also particularly prevalent in Ireland, possibly just as much as in Scotland. So I'd guess that M284+ is the best shot at Mesolithic continuity in Ireland. Ireland also has a lot from the Cont branch, but they seem to be later arrivals. L623+ (Cont2c) is another possibility, as it seems to be ancient in Britain, but it doesn't look Irish at all.

All said... we're not really sure whether I2a1 or I2a2 was more prevalent in Mesolithic Ireland. But guessing that more modern Irish carry Mesolithic Irish I2a2 than Mesolithic Irish I2a1 is probably correct.

 

[Maciamo]

interesting
but I have not well understood the calculation for the 125 R1b-L21 attributed to english or germanic origin people - is it based on the respective %s of L21 compared to other R1b in Ireland and England?

About half of the R1b England is U106 and the other half L21 (or other P312 subclades). That's why I added similar 125 members of non-Irish origin among the thousands of L21 in the Ireland Project.

 

[Maciamo]

I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.

Some I2a1a could have arrived in Ireland during the Neolithic, particularly I2a1a-Gen, which could have arrived there around 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and is a bit younger than that in terms of TMCRA (but older than the I2a1b2 IIRC). Again, this doesn't say a lot about Mesolithic continuity.

I2a1 was found in early Neolithic France, so I assume it took part to the Atlantic expansion of the Neolithic culture. Ireland was obviously part of the Western European Megalithic culture, so there must have been migrants from the continent spreading the culture to Ireland. Apparently it was a group of I2a1 people, since G2a and E1b1b are virtually absent.

As for I2 M223+, it's a bit messy but the only one that seems to be worth mentioning is M284+, which is very old in Britain and almost certainly Mesolithic or Neolithic there, and there may be some hope for an ancient presence in Ireland, too. In fact, the greatest outlier (marked as "Gordon") is split between a Gordon family from England and a Dunphy family from Ireland. The "Isles-Scot" branch is also particularly prevalent in Ireland, possibly just as much as in Scotland. So I'd guess that M284+ is the best shot at Mesolithic continuity in Ireland. Ireland also has a lot from the Cont branch, but they seem to be later arrivals. L623+ (Cont2c) is another possibility, as it seems to be ancient in Britain, but it doesn't look Irish at all.

All said... we're not really sure whether I2a1 or I2a2 was more prevalent in Mesolithic Ireland. But guessing that more modern Irish carry Mesolithic Irish I2a2 than Mesolithic Irish I2a1 is probably correct.

But I2a2 looks overwhelmingly Germanic in Ireland. It's true that it makes up a tremendous proportion of Germanic haplogroup (see edit above), but over 90% of these surnames are English or Scottish.

 

[Keegah]

I2a1b2-Isles is usually cited for its age in Ireland, although recent findings have suggested that it probably arrived there 6,000 YBP at the earliest, and bottlenecked to two individuals with modern descendants about 2,500 YBP. So unfortunately, it doesn't tell us a lot about much of anything more ancient than that.

Hey Sparkey, could you give me a link to these recent discoveries suggesting that I2a1b2 only arrived in Ireland 6,000 YBP at the earliest? I was under the impression that we were most likely the original post-LGM settlers of the British Isles. I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another, but I always thought that that was kind of cool nonetheless. Oh well, science marches on I suppose. What do you feel the earliest Y-haplogroup in Ireland was, personally?

 

[sparkey]

I2a1 was found in early Neolithic France, so I assume it took part to the Atlantic expansion of the Neolithic culture. Ireland was obviously part of the Western European Megalithic culture, so there must have been migrants from the continent spreading the culture to Ireland. Apparently it was a group of I2a1 people, since G2a and E1b1b are virtually absent.

It's OK if it's a pretty small group, though, either way. Only a few Irish are I2a1a-Gen (surnames Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, and Carberry at the I2a Project). And like I said before, I2a1b2 badly bottlenecked in Ireland.

But I2a2 looks overwhelmingly Germanic in Ireland. It's true that it makes up a tremendous proportion of Germanic haplogroup (see edit above), but over 90% of these surnames are English or Scottish.

I think that's because a lot of Irish are on the Cont (mostly Germanic) branch, and among those on the Isles M284+ (anciently British Isles) branch, many came to Ireland much later, with only some, like maybe the Dunphy family, being particularly ancient there.

Do you see any patterns?:

Some Irish Cont surnames:
Alford
Brown
Butler
Carr
Cloud
Colfer
Dougherty
Ennis
Galbreath
Hall
Hayde
Hogan
Humes
Hunter
Jackson
Johnson
Johnston
Kelly
Kilker
McGoogan
O'Driscoll
Patterson
Pollock
Rollins
Russell
Simpson
Spearin
Sterling
Stewart
Watson


Some Irish Isles M284+ surnames:
Agnew
Anderson
Arvin
Byrne
Callahan
Carroll
Cassidy
Conners
Corbett
Coyle
Crowley
Cullen
Dello
Diamond
Dunphy
Ferguson
Finucan
Fraser
Gillespie
Griffin
Gunning
Hart
Henry
Hession
Jackson
Kelly
Kilcoyne
Lavery
Lemon
Lindsey
Lough
Malone
McGimpsey
McGinnis
McInerney
McKeen
McKinstry
McManus
McVay
McWhaw
Mullin
Norrill
O'Neill
Quinn
Rice
Rogan
Smyth
Stewart
Walsh
Waters

Overall, I'm seeing similar patterns as you, with the thought that more I2a1 in Ireland has been there since the Neolithic than I2a2 in Ireland; while the most ancient (that is, possibly Mesolithic) I subclades in Ireland are more likely some rare members of I2a2.

 

[sparkey]

Hey Sparkey, could you give me a link to these recent discoveries suggesting that I2a1b2 only arrived in Ireland 6,000 YBP at the earliest? I was under the impression that we were most likely the original post-LGM settlers of the British Isles.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I2a1b2 arrived really early in Ireland... I should reword what I wrote. Modern I2a1b2 Irish clades (C and D in particular) are unlikely to descend from such a group, so modern I2a1b2 Irish are unlikely to descend from the earliest post-LGM settlers in the British Isles. Group B, the eldest, is very likely continental. Yorkie and jdanel have been emphasizing this a lot on this thread, with support from Nordtvedt, apparently. Then, if you look at Nortdvedt's tree, you can see that the C/D branch split from B & Alghaffaar 6,000 YBP. That means that the earliest it could have gotten to Ireland is 6,000 YBP.

It's possible, of course, that B and Alghaffaar descend from a fellow living in Ireland 6,000 YBP. That isn't ruled out. It just seems less likely than a more central location... I'd guess close to B's founding in northwest continental Europe or even Doggerland. But jdanel has gone so far as to guess Ukraine... so it's still a bit up in the air.

Either way, C/D are pretty darn early arrivals in Ireland... earlier than R1b, with some certainty. It's just that it may look more Neolithic than Mesolithic now.

I know that it doesn't really matter one way or another, but I always thought that that was kind of cool nonetheless. Oh well, science marches on I suppose. What do you feel the earliest Y-haplogroup in Ireland was, personally?

I'd guess I2a2a1 M284+ in terms of surviving haplogroups.

 

[Yorkie]

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if I2a1b2 arrived really early in Ireland... I should reword what I wrote. Modern I2a1b2 Irish clades (C and D in particular) are unlikely to descend from such a group, so modern I2a1b2 Irish are unlikely to descend from the earliest post-LGM settlers in the British Isles. Group B, the eldest, is very likely continental. Yorkie and jdanel have been emphasizing this a lot on this thread, with support from Nordtvedt, apparently. Then, if you look at Nortdvedt's tree, you can see that the C/D branch split from B & Alghaffaar 6,000 YBP. That means that the earliest it could have gotten to Ireland is 6,000 YBP.

It's possible, of course, that B and Alghaffaar descend from a fellow living in Ireland 6,000 YBP. That isn't ruled out. It just seems less likely than a more central location... I'd guess close to B's founding in northwest continental Europe or even Doggerland. But jdanel has gone so far as to guess Ukraine... so it's still a bit up in the air.

Either way, C/D are pretty darn early arrivals in Ireland... earlier than R1b, with some certainty. It's just that it may look more Neolithic than Mesolithic now.



I'd guess I2a2a1 M284+ in terms of surviving haplogroups.

Sparkey,
You mention me previously. Well, to be honest I've changed my tune about I2a1b2 a little. Much as I respect Nordtvedt, his age estimates are just that- estimates. I've talked to both Bryan Sykes and Peter Forster about the age and origins of L161 I2a1b2 [or 'Isles' as Ken Nordtvedt calls the 9 subclades]. Sykes in particular can see no evidence in terms of substantive dates that suggest I2a1b2 is so old in the isles, i.e, early post-LGM. In fact, both he and Forster see my I2a1b2 signature as most likely Anglo-Saxon in origin, or at least carried to England by that wave of invaders. Nordtvedt sees L161 as founded in northern Germany, so in a sense this might well add up. With regard to the Irish distribution of I2a1b2- perhaps the Belgae play a role here, i.e the Erainn and Fir Bolg. I am really not comfortable with the idea that I2a1b2 is always so ancient.

This is a tiny clade but all of the subclades-A1, A2 etc have some small presence over the north German plane. When Forster ran my English example of I2a1b2 through his database, the hotspot was actually northern Germany not Ireland.

Maciamo's point earlier about the Normans being Danish is misleading. The historian, Gwyn Jones ['History of the Vikings'] makes it clear that although Danes formed the bulk of Rollo's band, there were Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw amongst them, some Hiberno-Norse, a few Swedes and a small Norwegian contingent that allegedly settled the Cotentin. Duke William recruited from the whole of northern France with some outliers. The bulk of his invasion force of 1066 were 'native Norman' but these men would not be Scandinavian on all lines due to intermarriage with women of the Gallo-Frankish culture. The second largest contingents were from Flanders and Brittany. Other areas of recruitment were Ile De France, Gascony etc. The invasion force of 1066 was, far from being 'Danish', something of a mixed Celto-Germanic bag- native Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons etc.


Maciamo's other point about R1b-U106 being 'Germanic' is also potentially misleading. We might reasonably label U106 as perhaps 'Germanic-leaning' but I'd imagine its ultimate origins are proto-Celtic and it is certainly not effectively absent from Celtic lands as are I1 and R1a1a. A safer bet for a 'Germanic' label in R1b is the rarer, R1b-U198 which is found in small numbers almost exclusively in areas of Anglian settlement in England and in corresponding continental locations.

 

[Dalmat]

Concerning surnames in Ireland, anyone knows timeline when they were introduced?

One concern i have is if they were introduced relatively recently, they wont be a very good reference

 

[Maciamo]

Concerning surnames in Ireland, anyone knows timeline when they were introduced?

One concern i have is if they were introduced relatively recently, they wont be a very good reference

Many Irish surnames date at least back to the Norman conquest (12th century), but some clans names (such as O'Connor or O'Brien) go back even deeper in time (although under the Gaelic form, not the modern Anglicised one).

 

[Dalmat]

Many Irish surnames date at least back to the Norman conquest (12th century), but some clans names (such as O'Connor or O'Brien) go back even deeper in time (although under the Gaelic form, not the modern Anglicised one).

I did some quick search, and it seems that oldest surnames in Ireland 12th century were almost exclusively starting with "O'" or "Mac", but still, i think surnames are to much of an variable to be used as sure reference.

Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry

 

[Maciamo]

Sparkey,
Maciamo's point earlier about the Normans being Danish is misleading. The historian, Gwyn Jones ['History of the Vikings'] makes it clear that although Danes formed the bulk of Rollo's band, there were Anglo-Danes from the Danelaw amongst them, some Hiberno-Norse, a few Swedes and a small Norwegian contingent that allegedly settled the Cotentin. Duke William recruited from the whole of northern France with some outliers. The bulk of his invasion force of 1066 were 'native Norman' but these men would not be Scandinavian on all lines due to intermarriage with women of the Gallo-Frankish culture. The second largest contingents were from Flanders and Brittany. Other areas of recruitment were Ile De France, Gascony etc. The invasion force of 1066 was, far from being 'Danish', something of a mixed Celto-Germanic bag- native Normans, Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons etc.

Obviously there were also French people of Gallo-Frankish descent among the Normans. This is especially apparent among the names of members of haplogroup E1b1b in Ireland (such as Fitzgerald, Fleming, French, Joyce, Roche, Rose) and a few J2 (like the ubiquitous Montgomery).

Maciamo's other point about R1b-U106 being 'Germanic' is also potentially misleading. We might reasonably label U106 as perhaps 'Germanic-leaning' but I'd imagine its ultimate origins are proto-Celtic and it is certainly not effectively absent from Celtic lands as are I1 and R1a1a. A safer bet for a 'Germanic' label in R1b is the rarer, R1b-U198 which is found in small numbers almost exclusively in areas of Anglian settlement in England and in corresponding continental locations.

I disagree with that. I would say that R1b-U106 is the true Germanic branch, justly because it is closely related to the Proto-Italo-Celtic branch of R1b. Haplogroup I1 and I2a2 are pre-Germanic, because they lived in Europe well before the Indo-European invasions. Germanic languages were probably also influenced by the R1a descendants of the Corded Ware culture, which explains some similarities with Balto-Slavic languages that the Italo-Celtic branch lacks. But Germanic being a Centum branch, it is categorised alongside Italo-Celtic rather than Balto-Slavic. I believe that Germanic culture only started when R1b-U106 moved up from Central Europe to North Germany and Scandinavia and blended with the I1, I2a2 and R1a people they encountered. Prior to that there was an Indo-European culture in the region (Corded Ware), but not one that can be defined as Germanic or Proto-Germanic.

 

[Maciamo]

Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry

That's a completely different situation. The USA was created with culturally uprooted immigrants from all over the world, who often took English-sounding names to fit in their host society. Nothing like that happened in Ireland.

 

[Dalmat]

That's a completely different situation. The USA was created with culturally uprooted immigrants from all over the world, who often took English-sounding names to fit in their host society. Nothing like that happened in Ireland.

Concept is the same, i don't see much difference.

I am interested of how did you make such conclusion about Ireland, when you can basically take any nation in the world as reference.

 

[inver2b1]

It's OK if it's a pretty small group, though, either way. Only a few Irish are I2a1a-Gen (surnames Cullen, Dunn, Healy, O'Donoghue, Crowley, and Carberry at the I2a Project). And like I said before, I2a1b2 badly bottlenecked in Ireland.



I think that's because a lot of Irish are on the Cont (mostly Germanic) branch, and among those on the Isles M284+ (anciently British Isles) branch, many came to Ireland much later, with only some, like maybe the Dunphy family, being particularly ancient there.

Do you see any patterns?:

Overall, I'm seeing similar patterns as you, with the thought that more I2a1 in Ireland has been there since the Neolithic than I2a2 in Ireland; while the most ancient (that is, possibly Mesolithic) I subclades in Ireland are more likely some rare members of I2a2.

I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades.
Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.
One reason that R1b came to dominate might be that enough of it got into powerful gaelic families where males had concubines or a gaelic equivalent and had a lot of children who also went on to do the same.

 

[sparkey]

I thought the surnames O'Grady and O'Driscoll turned up in one of the old I2a2 clades.

Probably. I just took a random-ish sample, my list isn't complete.

Regarding M284, some of that I'd say came from Scotland. I'm one of the names on your M284+ list (I'm I2-L126) and my two closest matches are a Scottish surname which is expected as my clade is called Scots. Planatation aside there has been a lot of back and forth mgrations between Scotland and the North of Ireland.

Agreed. In fact, I2a2a-M284 is interesting in how it's a mix of native Irish, Scottish, and English names. I guess that's evidence of ancient spread across all of those places. Probably, modern Irish carriers of M284+ have a wide range of dates when their patrilineal ancestors came to Ireland... from many years ago (it's still too hard to say when the earliest was) to the modern period. Contrast that to I2a1a-Gen, whose Irish carriers are basically 100% native Irish in their surnames; I2a1b2-Isles, which looks a little more balanced to native Irish to me (although plenty of non-Irish still, it's actually pretty comparable to I2a2a-M284... Yorkie also brings up some good points about I2a1b2); and I2a2a-Cont, which looks to have more English surnames to me. At least, those are the patterns I see. I'd be interested if anybody has better metrics than casually eyeballing the data.

 

[inver2b1]

There was a book on Scottish DNA out recently and I think they claimed M284 arose in Iberia, it may have been based on a small number of samples from Portugal but some have explained that away due to portugal and britain being military allies in recent history.
Isn't a problem with a lot of these analysis that it's mainly US samples that are used and in general the testees tend to come form a Isles background?

 

[MOESAN]

About half of the R1b England is U106 and the other half L21 (or other P312 subclades). That's why I added similar 125 members of non-Irish origin among the thousands of L21 in the Ireland Project.

thanks
(even if a little bit simplistic: L21 and U106 have statistical results today in England but that doesn't prove ancient ties or origins before arrival in England at old times) -

 

[MOESAN]

I did some quick search, and it seems that oldest surnames in Ireland 12th century were almost exclusively starting with "O'" or "Mac", but still, i think surnames are to much of an variable to be used as sure reference.

Lets take obvius example for even later period in American history, most Aframs have A-S surnames, but they are not even of European ancestry

the irish surnames(as hereditary) seam the older ones in western Europe and I think people did not change surnames so easily - (clans, pride...) - the Normans retained their previous names for the most, even if gaelized -
the case of African slaves in USA is not the same at all -

&: the subsequent lost of O' and Mac in surnames didn' t change the trunk of the name to drastically I rhink -