Western Iberian's North African is 100% from Roman era?

[Luso]

Hey everyone, a recent study discovered burials dating to the Roman era. Most of these samples showed stability in the genomes of western Iberian samples to modern times genealogically. These new Portuguese samples were extracted from Central and South Portugal and may have just proved that North African DNA in Western Iberia is exclusively ancient. More specifically, it may prove that the north African dna found in western iberians is not at all from Moorish times as these samples have the same amounts of north African as modern individuals today and predate this moorish era by a long time.

One hypothesis is that the richness of the west was exploited by the Romans. In order to extract as much profit as possible the Romans brought a huge influx of North African slaves among others like... northern germanics (maybe explaining proportional, celtic, German skew at times on similar levels to east Iberia) to mine resources. As a result, these slaves were incorportated into the genepool.

This is a huge finding that has clarified a lot of questions regarding moorish times and it's impact on the peninsula. It also explains why areas in North western Iberia that were never invaded have the same amount of north African admixture as the deep south.

I cannot post links yet as I'm under 20 posts but when I reach it I'll update it with the sources.

Anyone can elaborate on these findings?

 

[Mmiikkii]

Can you provide the link for the study???

And by the way, "North african DNA" is usually just haplogroup E. But that may be Greek or Roman.

Only E-M78 and E-M81 are from the Sahara

 

[Luso]

Can you provide the link for the study???

And by the way, "North african DNA" is usually just haplogroup E. But that may be Greek or Roman.

Only E-M78 and E-M81 are from the Sahara

i unfortunately cannot provide links because i have under 20 posts but look up “Stable Population structure in Europe since the Iron Age, despite high mobility” you can find the Portuguese samples somewhere.

You will see that Mar_Taforalt (ancient north african) was already present among western iberian samples from before moorish conquest.

 

[Luso]

I can now link the study:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.15.491973v1

 

[Angela]

There is absolutely nothing in that paper (discussed in another thread a few months ago) supporting your conclusions.

 

[Luso]

There is absolutely nothing in that paper (discussed in another thread a few months ago) supporting your conclusions.

Hi Angela,

It's the samples from the paper that support my *speculation*

Here are some examples of simulated k13 results:

There are more, and we are waiting for these to be converted to official G25 samples by Davidski and you will see my *speculation* wasn't far off. At this point it's beginning to look more evident that north african dna in the west-side of the peninsula was already present in almost similar ratio's to modern Portuguese and Galician samples. But let's wait for the official g25 samples to be uploaded soon.

 

[Angela]

Well, there's your first mistake: using a calculator created by Polako, and if you had to choose one, K13, one of the worst for Southern Europeans.

Just in general, you should be aware that the precise date for each sample is important. There's a big difference between Roman Imperial Age and Late Antiquity, which overlaps with the Early Middle Ages. The Moors were already in Iberia by 711.

There are also papers directly on point; no need to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Duarte]

Some of the samples of this paper matches me on MTA

Stable population structure in Europe since the Iron Age, despite high mobility
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.05.15.491973v1.full

MTA;
2. Late Roman Era Miroico Portugal
420 AD - Genetic Distance: 7.675 - R10506
21. Medieval Monte da Nora Portugal
780 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.4 - R10494
56. Late Roman Era Miroico Portugal
340 AD - Genetic Distance: 11.48 - R10508

 

[Luso]

Well, there's your first mistake: using a calculator created by Polako, and if you had to choose one, K13, one of the worst for Southern Europeans.

Just in general, you should be aware that the precise date for each sample is important. There's a big difference between Roman Imperial Age and Late Antiquity, which overlaps with the Early Middle Ages. The Moors were already in Iberia by 711.

There are also papers directly on point; no need to reinvent the wheel.

Good points. We will have to wait and see for official coordinates to come out and compare time periods between samples. I think no one denies that the moors had some genetic impact on us. But a big question is why Galicia and more northern parts of Portugal (which never were conquered by the Moors) have such strong signals of moorish dna? And the theory of Roman era North African slaves working on the rich mines found from Galicia to the Algarve in Portugal sounds like a very powerful theory to explain the admixture's continuity.

 

[ihype02]

Not even most of the shift occurred from the Roman era and let alone all of it, look the difference from L'Esquerda and Pla de l'Horta to post Moorish era overlapping with modern Spaniards.


https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-A-Geographic-distribution-and_fig1_331744779

https://www.researchgate.net/profil...me-transect-A-Geographic-distribution-and.png

 

[Angela]

Good points. We will have to wait and see for official coordinates to come out and compare time periods between samples. I think no one denies that the moors had some genetic impact on us. But a big question is why Galicia and more northern parts of Portugal (which never were conquered by the Moors) have such strong signals of moorish dna? And the theory of Roman era North African slaves working on the rich mines found from Galicia to the Algarve in Portugal sounds like a very powerful theory to explain the admixture's continuity.

There are very few Spanish, or Portuguese, for that matter, histories of the period of Moorish domination, but from what I've been able to find, during some time periods the treatment and expulsion of Jews and Moriscos was somewhat less severe in Portugal than in Spain. That may explain part of it.

 

[Anshar]

There are two issues with your theory. E-M81 entered Iberia during the Islamic period and African ancestry is ubiquitous in Iberia while it was limited to Beatica during the Roman period.

 

[Luso]

Well, there's your first mistake: using a calculator created by Polako, and if you had to choose one, K13, one of the worst for Southern Europeans.

Just in general, you should be aware that the precise date for each sample is important. There's a big difference between Roman Imperial Age and Late Antiquity, which overlaps with the Early Middle Ages. The Moors were already in Iberia by 711. Overall, it looks like part of the north african is ancient (before moorish conquest), part of it is less ancient (early middle ages) and these g25 samples can show some trend. I won't conclude anything, especially bc of these samples being central and south Portugal... and that north to south repopulation did occur much later on. But right now we can see for sure mar_taforalt is present with dates before 711!

There are also papers directly on point; no need to reinvent the wheel.

Hi Angela,

coming back to this topic.

Target: Iberia_West_Miroico:R10501___AD_426
Distance: 2.8553% / 0.02855260
53.0 TUR_Barcin_N
28.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.8 WHG
5.4 MAR_Taforalt
1.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
1.0 Han
0.2 Yoruba

This is from AD 426 before AD 711 (when moors invaded), and you can see the taforalt is on par with a modern Portuguese.

Some other example:

Target: Iberia_West_Conimbriga:R10488___AD_337
Distance: 4.8821% / 0.04882084
54.6 TUR_Barcin_N
24.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
18.0 WHG
1.6 MAR_Taforalt
1.2 Dinka

-Interesting sample, on the other end of the coin 100 years before... roughly 400 years before moorish invasion. Not much taforalt... dinka tho!


All of them:

 

[Wanderer]

Hi Angela,

It's the samples from the paper that support my *speculation*

Here are some examples of simulated k13 results:

There are more, and we are waiting for these to be converted to official G25 samples by Davidski and you will see my *speculation* wasn't far off. At this point it's beginning to look more evident that north african dna in the west-side of the peninsula was already present in almost similar ratio's to modern Portuguese and Galician samples. But let's wait for the official g25 samples to be uploaded soon.

This probably just implies carthagenian admixture around this time period actually. Phonecians have traded and made contact with the area for hundreds of years before even hanibal barca was at war. This supports possibility of J-L283 migration into iberia from sardinia through mediated phonecian colonization and migrations.

 

[Angela]

That's too old and mixed a sample to use. You need proximate samples for a good analysis. Use the obviously North African/Berber samples we have from Spain's Medieval period or even from France.