What ancient group are Belgians closest too?

[thewarrider7]

I keep matching very close to Belgians and being from the south east of England that doesn't come as much of a surprise.

However, being on the so called celt-germanic borders, what are modern Belgians closest too?

Bell-beaker, Belgae tribes, Franks, Saxons, Frisians?

Would be cool to hear from those who know.

 

[Ygorcs]

Bell Beaker is some 2,000 years earlier than Saxons, Franks or Frisians, and these later Germanic tribes are also more recent than most Belgae tribes, which were apparently absorbed during the Germanic expansion coming southwards from Jutland and Scandinavia. So, I think your question conflates many different chronological periods and also assumes that those were necessarily different peoples in terms of their main genetic makeup, which is definitely not a reliably established fact.

It is perfectly possible, perhaps even llikely, that the Belgians are still closely related to Bell Beaker in Belgium or neighboring areas AND ALSO to Belgae tribes AND ALSO to Franks inhabiting the area during the Middle Ages. Those groups changed their ethnic identity many times even when there was only small migration to their lands, since the particular political dominance and cultural prestige changed a lot throughout the centuries. Belgae tribes were apparently already closer, in culture and possibly even in language, to Germanic tribes, according to some a kind of mid-term between the Celts to the south and west and the Germans to the north and northeast.

Their absorbing a new cultural and linguistic layer wouldn't have been that difficult, because they were all generally part of the same cluster of more or less similar cultures, especially since it is already well accepted that there was strong Celtic influence (perhaps even via the Belgians themselves) on the early Germanic tribes, rendering them more culturally similar with the Celtic and Belgian tribes that they would eventually conquer and assimilate.

 

[mwauthy]

I keep matching very close to Belgians and being from the south east of England that doesn't come as much of a surprise.

However, being on the so called celt-germanic borders, what are modern Belgians closest too?

Bell-beaker, Belgae tribes, Franks, Saxons, Frisians?

Would be cool to hear from those who know.

I don’t think using modern samples to compare to one ancient ethnic group makes much sense since modern and ancient samples are not homogeneous. Plus there are too few ancient samples to make broad generalizations.

I do think that Southeast England and Belgium do share a lot of similarities though in addition to proximity of locations. In my opinion distance is the major influence in terms of genetic similarities (not ancient ethnic influences) and the English Channel is not very wide.

They both have a large West Germanic influence whether you want to call it Saxon or Frankish. They both have a strong “Celtic” influence with tribes called the Belgae on both sides of the channel. They both have a minor Vasconic influence or Basque like Southwestern farming influence. They both have a minor Roman influence both being occupied for several centuries.

For many DNA companies northern France/Belgium are almost indistinguishable from Southern England and many companies just call it Northwestern European. Being French Canadian and Belgian I get large scores of “English” on several tests.

 

[FIREYWOTAN]

Thanks for sharing your questions and answers. The commitment to locating a point of entry has been more than stimulating. I hope this information can find some value in your search.

Late Celtic Period.
The date of the first use of iron, 'man's greatest step along the path of progress,' in Britain is uncertain. There was probably a period of some centuries when iron was not unknown, but bronze continued to be the metal principally employed. Its full use did not, perhaps, begin till about B.C.. 500. (fn. 2)
During the later part of this period there was an invasion of Belgic tribes, tall, fair-haired people from north-east Gaul, who overran the south-east of Britain, including what is now Hertfordshire. In the first century B.C.., Cassivellaunus was the prince of the Belgic tribe of the Catuvelauni, miscalled by the MSS. of Ptolemy Catyeuchlani, whose territory extended into the present counties of Hertford, Middlesex, Buckingham and Bedford. Cæsar, in his second invasion (B.C.. 54), directed his march to the chief stronghold of this prince, which he eventually took. It is a reasonable conjecture that this stronghold was Verulam, near St. Albans, and, indeed, it answers well to the description given of it by Cæsar. (fn. 3) The Trinobantes, another Belgic tribe whose chief town was at Camulodunum or Colchester, inhabited the present county of Essex and probably the eastern parts of Hertfordshire.

 

[bicicleur 2]

When Caesar conquered Belgica, there were already Celtic and Germanic tribes, and some Belgian Celtic tribes were infiltrating in SE England.
When the Roman Empire collapsed the Franks, a Germanic tribe invaded Belgium, but the autochtone population was not replaced.
Historians always considered the Flemish as more Germanic and the Walloons more Celtic, but this is not corroborated by noticable differences in DNA.

 

[Maciamo]

Modern Belgians are indeed very close to Southeast English people. Currently Belgians testing with Living DNA typically get a score of 70 to 85% British (due to the few of Belgian samples in the reference population) and most of it is East Anglia and South England (with some Yorkshire too). That is not surprising as both Belgians and English people descend from a similar stock of ancestors. Both descend from Bronze Age Celts, Hallstatt Celts, Belgic tribes (who settled in southern England and Yorkshire), and West Germanic tribes, with a shared Saxon ancestry for southern English and Flemish people, + shared Frankish ancestry too through thousands of years of intermarriages between the English and Frankish (French, Belgian, German) nobility.

The main difference is that Belgians, and particularly Walloons, tend to have more ancient Roman ancestry, although this seems to vary a lot between individuals.