It's a valid point btw. Of course the final say has ancient DNA with a lot of samples. But, unfortunately in case of Central Balkans we have to rely on Pre and Post logic since the groups heavily used cremation.
Where does the Albanian language come from? [VIDEO]
- Thread starter Johane Derite
- Start date
It's a valid point btw. Of course the final say has ancient DNA with a lot of samples. But, unfortunately in case of Central Balkans we have to rely on Pre and Post logic since the groups heavily used cremation.
Johane Derite
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Yeah, also this is further complicated by the fact that we do really have to remember that a lot can change in 200 years, let alone 800, etc..
"Given the scarcity of the material, it is extremely difficult to date Thracian as a language.
It seems however that one can claim with relative certainty that the language was spoken through the Iron Age and into the Roman Era.
There are examples of the Linear B forms from Crete which have been interpreted as Thracian names, cf. e.g. o-du-ru-we (Dat./Loc.sg.) KN C 902.6, (Gen.sg.) o-[du-ru-wo KN Cο 910 apparently to Trac. name Ὀδρύσαι (Odrysai), which might well point to the existence of Thracian as a separate linguistic unit in the chronology comparable to those of Mycenaean Greek (Hajnal 2003, 134).
If we assume that the hypothetical Balkan linguistic unity (irrespective of genetic or more typological sorts) was still present around 2000 BC, we may claim that, after the first wave of migration of the Proto-Greek tribes, the other Balkan groups (Proto-Thracian/Proto-Macedonian/Proto-Phrygian) occupied the historical regions of Macedonia and Thracia, and the migrations around 1200 BC caused some movements to push the ancestors of Phrygians to the Asia Minor and the Doric tribes to the South.
In such a hypothetical scenario, Thracians would have remained in their historical settlements, or even have spread to the North and East.
Thracian remained the predominant language in the Central Balkans possibly until the Slavic invasion.
For example, the Slavic version of the place name Plovdiv seems to continue the Thracian form Pulpudeva rather than the Greek Phillippopolis, despite the strong Hellenization of the material culture in the area; the quick Romanization after Roman conquest would indicate influence of both languages (Greek and Latin).
The singular mention of the monks speaking “Bessian” language in one of the monasteries in the Sinai in the 6th cent. (around 570 AD), by Antonius Placentinus is worth noting.
Later Symeon the Metaphrast (10th cent.) in his biography of Saint Teodosius the Cenobiarch (423-529) claimed that Thracian was spoken in a monastery, built on Mount Sinai, when Teodosius visited (i.e. in the 5th cent.):
“There were four churches (…), one for each of the three nations of which his community was chiefly composed, each speaking a different language (…). The nations into which the community was divided were the Greeks, who were by far the most numerous, and consisted of all those that came from any provinces of the empire; the Armenians, with whom were joined the Arabians and Persians; and, thirdly, the Bessi, who comprised all the northern nations below Thrace, or all who used the Runic or Sclavonian tongue.
Each nation sung the first part of the mass to the end of the gospel in their own church, but after the gospel all met in the church of the Greeks, where they celebrated the essential part of the sacrifice in Greek and communicated all together...”.
This reference could suggest a scenario where the remnants of Thracian were still in use by the time of the appearance of Slavic tribes in the Balkans."
https://www.academia.edu/49080142/T...KT04HfrhkfYBTNoU6-3gmVmVQW8zNZRPQaPkQRgb5UkoM
[TD="align: left"]I15544[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Grave No. 15[/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[TD="align: left"] tooth [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] 261-418 cal CE (1685±20 BP, PSUAMS-8725) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1581 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 42 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]M[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.415502693 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 209.5 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] HV9 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0.983,0.998] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] E1b1b1a1b1(xE1b1b1a1b1a1) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] E-M78,E-L618,E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]496395[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Balkans IA cluster[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (no relatives detected) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 787 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.00525 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1.346 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0,0.013] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] ds.half [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] S15544.Y1.E1.L1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.095204232 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.635499 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.063 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]I15546[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Grave No. 26[/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[TD="align: left"] tooth [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]M[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.408705086 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 111.8 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] L2a1+143+16189 (16192) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0.978,0.991] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] J2b2a1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] J2,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]398014[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Balkans IA cluster[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (no relatives detected) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (too few SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (too few SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 482 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.00194 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.647 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0,0.008] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] ds.half [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] S15546.Y1.E1.L1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.028128868 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.468395 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.131 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]I15556[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] Grave No. 123 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"] tooth [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]U[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]FAIL[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 11.93 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] H10d [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0.932, 0.985] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] .. [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] .. [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] FAIL [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]N/A[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (no relatives detected) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (too few SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (too few SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (<200 SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (<200 SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (<200 SNPs) [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] ds.half [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] S15556.Y1.E1.L1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.01582275 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.17
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]I15548[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Grave No. 28[/TD]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[TD="align: left"] tooth [/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]
[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]M[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.417242591 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 167.5 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] W+194 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0.987,0.997] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] J2b2a1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] J2,J-M102,J-Z534,J-Z1825,J-Z593,J-M241,J-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z2507,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z1295,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"]528299[/TD]
[TD="align: left"]Balkans IA cluster[/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] n/a (no relatives detected) [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 1212 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.00751 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 2.347 [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] [0.001,0.014] [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] ds.half [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] S15548.Y1.E1.L1 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.279264646 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.793591 [/TD]
[TD="align: right"] 0.058 [/TD]
This is what i found from Serbian sources, so those two J2b2-L283 and one E-V13, of course based on graves, they suspect to be either Dardanian or Dalmatians. Or it could be the two J2b2-L283 are Dalmatians and the E-V13 is Dardanian. We cannot know for sure, maybe the autosomal can give us a hint.
Dibran
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Blood feuding is common to many Albanians. It makes no sense to tie a tradition dating back ages to one specific haplogroup. Plenty of high J2b-L283 areas that were heavy in blood feuding.
Blood-feuds are common thing in Mediterranean and Anatolia, so indeed nothing to do with Y-DNA thing. But, him bringing it here just to find something indirectly to put down Derite. Typical foxy Bruzmoids.
Johane Derite
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Totally irrelevant to what was being discussed, but also funny because yet again it shows that a big problem here is that they have no reading comprehension.
The quote they put out says:
"a common origin (both have high E-V13) or developed independently of each other due to external circumstances."
I.e. there is no dogmatic claim being made here.
Maniots don't have high L283 as far as I know, so with a common cultural practice and not too far away, and possible shared paternal origins within the two groups, it would be wrong not to speculate whether the cultural practice comes from a common root culture. Whether it is a conservative archaic culture practice that was retained by Maniots. This speculation is done obviously with the awareness that also it is possible it just developed independently without a common root due to external circumstances.
In Dukagjin and in Malesi, bloodfeuding didn't develop independently of each other, they have a common origin from a common shared cultural mileu.
The main relevance is, that clan fights can largely annihilate specific lineages or replace them in a region. In a more regular peasant setting, many lineages will survive side by side unless their are rare and unusual circumstances, which can appear though, easily, but not as often as in societies which practise feuds on a regular basis.
The dominance of specific, rather young subclades in some regions inhabited by Albanians can possibly explained by blood feuds, which can change frequencies more regularly and drastically than in regions in which peasants lived under a strict law, like in most parts of Germany for that time.
Such sweeps from one clan which replaced another could change the frequencies and distribution of haplogroups in Albanians in unexpected ways and probably some older lineages of importance being now rare to non-existent. That's something only large scale testing for every time period and region could reveal. I expect more autosomal than uniparental continuity in Albanians from Late Antiquity/migration period on.
This is why Albanians have a lot of more recent founder effects, some postdate the ethnogenesis of the people by many centuries.
It's just an attempt of character assassination, in order to completely deligimate what you said/quoted.
What's next? Matzinger goes by the username of torzio in eupedia?
Excine
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Hawk, the same individual who said I was Bruzmi in order to deny my existence as a living being 
.
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41812-SubgroupE-FT186965/page4?p=633418#post633418
Seems like I punctured a hole.
.https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41812-SubgroupE-FT186965/page4?p=633418#post633418
Seems like I punctured a hole.
torzio
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LOL
whatever you want to fabricate
just stop getting your history from facebook and twitter
Johane Derite
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Bardhyl Demiraj, arguing on a single toponym (Pëdhana) as continuing "Bassania" argued that this was proof an old Albanian sound change, however the /ss/ to /dh/ is regarded as too improbable, and Stadtmuller long ago found a more straightforward etymology from Latin. Pedaneus, further evidence of a romanised population living in Mat, Drin, Fan valley, Black Drin, Lezhe - Ulpiana.
Johane Derite
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Noel Malcolm also accepts that there was a Latinised Illyrian population living in Komani-Kruja culture. This people obviously are not the proto-Albanian language speakers:
"Typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existence."
I wonder what haplogroups these latinised Illyrians carried?
"Typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existence."
I wonder what haplogroups these latinised Illyrians carried?
Johane Derite
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Linguists believe the name of the Albanoi is related to an IE word referring to mountains.
Compare with the "Gorani" people whose name is constructed from Slavic. "Gora" [mountain].
This seems to fit with Wilkes idea bout proto-Albanian speakers being shepherds high up in the mountains
Compare with the "Gorani" people whose name is constructed from Slavic. "Gora" [mountain].
This seems to fit with Wilkes idea bout proto-Albanian speakers being shepherds high up in the mountains
Johane Derite
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Wilkes argues that the proto-Albanians were nomadic shepherd (transhumance) migrants.
Noel Malcolm argues a similar point, that these proto-Albanian migrants originated from the highlands in the Kosovo region before expanding into Albania.
Noel Malcolm is pretty clear that the proto-Albanians were shepherds living in the higher grounds, similar to Wilkes.
Like Wilkes, he also refers to the Latin speaking peoples that penetrated even into remote areas into the Northern Albanian mountains.
Noel Malcolm argues a similar point, that these proto-Albanian migrants originated from the highlands in the Kosovo region before expanding into Albania.
Noel Malcolm is pretty clear that the proto-Albanians were shepherds living in the higher grounds, similar to Wilkes.
Like Wilkes, he also refers to the Latin speaking peoples that penetrated even into remote areas into the Northern Albanian mountains.
Johane Derite
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If we see the distribution of Komani-Kruja culture and compare it to Latin placenames and inscriptions, we see that there is an overlap. Interestingly, the presence of Komani-Kruja culture necropolis in Corfu has fit an argument for Proto-Albanian speaking culture, but a Latinised local population is totally feasible.
Likewise we see a pocket on the south west Tosk regions (Lab regions) where some Greco-Illyrian placenames persisted and where we find Latin inscriptoins as well as Greek ones. Possibly this is related to why there is a higher L283 presence in South West Albania compared to other Tosk regions?
Likewise we see a pocket on the south west Tosk regions (Lab regions) where some Greco-Illyrian placenames persisted and where we find Latin inscriptoins as well as Greek ones. Possibly this is related to why there is a higher L283 presence in South West Albania compared to other Tosk regions?
It might very well be that some E-V13 subclades like E-V13 CTS9320 and E-V13 FGC11450, E-V13 L241, R1b-Z2105 and some J2b2-L283 subclades represent among both Gheg and Tosks are the original Proto-Albanoids based on this model.
While many J2b2-L283 subclades, some specific E-V13 subclades might represent Latinized Southern Illyrians.
As far as our subclade comes, i think of the following explanations: Odrysians primarily, Celts/Gauls secondarily, Dardanians the last.
Just educated guesses btw. No need for virtual crucifixion lol.
While many J2b2-L283 subclades, some specific E-V13 subclades might represent Latinized Southern Illyrians.
As far as our subclade comes, i think of the following explanations: Odrysians primarily, Celts/Gauls secondarily, Dardanians the last.
Just educated guesses btw. No need for virtual crucifixion lol.
The range for these clades is still incredibly large in time and space, that a lot of surprises are still possible. We just need more data, it doesn't help.
enter_tain
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There's nothing educated about your desperation to assign your Y-DNA to ghost populations because you feel left out.
Look at you dude, several accounts, and the same pattern of rages toward Matzinger (renowned linguist and respected by all except for you brats) around in posts. Who is desperate?
To me it looks like someone something lied to you, hence your extreme narcissism on not being able to handle things.
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Look at you dude, several accounts, and the same pattern of rages toward Matzinger (renowned linguist and respected by all except for you brats) around in posts. Who is desperate?
To me it looks like someone something lied to you, hence your extreme narcissism on not being able to handle things.
Am I also a sock puppet because I think Matzinger comes across as an idiot?
Don't worry, no need to have an identity crisis because E-V13 hasn't shown up yet, the most important regions haven't been tested. You can calm down instead of buying into Derites crazy speculations, I will personally contact a director to make a movie out of his fantastical ideas. Whoever is pumping out those superhero movies every year could surely make a great movie about Albanian speaking peoples in the Trojan wars.