Ive looked on Illustrative dna and I observed that modern Lithuanians and Latvians are more southern than Bronze Age Balts from Kivutkalns and Turlojiske. I know that Balts over time mixed with Slavs and Germans however the level of mixing should have been quite high to achieve the genetic profile of modern Balts but if we look at the y dna of Lithuanians and Latvians they seem to not have mixed that much with other populations. Can someone please answer my question ?
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Why modern Balts are more southern than ancient Balts?
- Thread starter Dahoi
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MOESAN
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This isn't a detailed answer. Just a quick one. When you write Y-DNA I suppose you're thinking in their Y-haplo's?Ive looked on Illustrative dna and I observed that modern Lithuanians and Latvians are more southern than Bronze Age Balts from Kivutkalns and Turlojiske. I know that Balts over time mixed with Slavs and Germans however the level of mixing should have been quite high to achieve the genetic profile of modern Balts but if we look at the y dna of Lithuanians and Latvians they seem to not have mixed that much with other populations. Can someone please answer my question ?
This concerns only a small part of allover autoDNA and only on the males side. BTW what modern Balts are you speaking of? Because the modern Latvians are hugely crossed with Russians descendants (their first and second names are often Russian ones just 'latvianized' by a final -s...), so that the Russian origin seems to me stronger than the genuine Latvian one. But this isn't the only explanation of this drift, history and foreign females mating can explain a lot?
I avow I haven't "worked" too much on this question yet.
&: this mixture is not level - on a sample (rather limited in number it's true) of Latvian sportmen I made 2 selections: a Lavtian (name/surname) and a Russian (name/surname) one. Even in hair pigmentation it was evident: the first ones were about 60% blonds, the second one aout 33% - not to be taken for Bible word: an amateur's work of mine.
Have a look at Mittnik 2018, especially the supplementary information Figures 4 and 6a.
You should see a decrease of HG ancestry and increase of EEF ancestry.
I’d say it’s a result of people gradually moving across milllennia in several contexts:
- the Baltic language is Indo-European, with an origin in the southern forest-steppe;
- toponyms indicate that much of the central Russia west of Urals used to be Baltic, there may have been population movements towards the current Baltic areas;
- Lithuania shared a king with Poland during 1600s ans 1700s, that country extended almost to the Black Sea, covering most of today’s Belarus and Ukraine;
- the high percentage of Russians in Latvia mentioned by MOESAN that are possibly counted as “Latvians”, though Russians themselves have a variety of ancestries from Fenno-Ugric to Steppe, most of that migration is post-WWII and I believe the modern populations discount such recent migrants.
There was never much mixing with the Germans though, and Germans never moved to Lithuania either. Virtually all the Germans left 1918-1941.
You should see a decrease of HG ancestry and increase of EEF ancestry.
I’d say it’s a result of people gradually moving across milllennia in several contexts:
- the Baltic language is Indo-European, with an origin in the southern forest-steppe;
- toponyms indicate that much of the central Russia west of Urals used to be Baltic, there may have been population movements towards the current Baltic areas;
- Lithuania shared a king with Poland during 1600s ans 1700s, that country extended almost to the Black Sea, covering most of today’s Belarus and Ukraine;
- the high percentage of Russians in Latvia mentioned by MOESAN that are possibly counted as “Latvians”, though Russians themselves have a variety of ancestries from Fenno-Ugric to Steppe, most of that migration is post-WWII and I believe the modern populations discount such recent migrants.
There was never much mixing with the Germans though, and Germans never moved to Lithuania either. Virtually all the Germans left 1918-1941.