Why we're a divided nation

[Antifederalist]

Why we're a divided nation
Walter E. Williams (archive)
www.townhall.com


Recent elections pointed to deepening divisions among American people, but has anyone given serious thought to just why? I have part of the answer, which starts off with a simple example.

Different Americans have different and intensive preferences for cars, food, clothing and entertainment. For example, some Americans love opera and hate rock and roll. Others have opposite preferences, loving rock and roll and hating opera. When's the last time you heard of rock-and-roll lovers in conflict with opera lovers? It seldom, if ever, happens. Why? Those who love operas get what they want, and those who love rock and roll get what they want, and both can live in peace with one another.

Suppose that instead of freedom in the music market, decisions on what kind of music people could listen to were made in the political arena. It would be either opera or rock and roll. Rock and rollers would be lined up against opera lovers. Why? It's simple. If the opera lovers win, rock and rollers would lose, and the reverse would happen if rock and rollers won. Conflict would emerge solely because the decision was made in the political arena.

The prime feature of political decision-making is that it's a zero-sum game. One person or group's gain is of necessity another person or group's loss. As such, political allocation of resources is conflict enhancing while market allocation is conflict reducing. The greater the number of decisions made in the political arena, the greater is the potential for conflict.

There are other implications of political decision-making. Throughout most of our history, we've lived in relative harmony. That's remarkable because just about every religion, racial and ethnic group in the world is represented in our country. These are the very racial/ethnic/religious groups that have for centuries been trying to slaughter one another in their home countries, among them: Turks and Armenians, Protestant and Catholic, Muslim and Jew, Croats and Serbs. While we haven't been a perfect nation, there have been no cases of the mass genocide and religious wars that have plagued the globe elsewhere. The closest we've come was the American Indian/European conflict, which pales by comparison.

The reason we've been able to live in relative harmony is that for most of our history government was small. There wasn't much pie to distribute politically.

When it's the political arena that determines who gets what goodies, the most effective coalitions are those with a proven record of being the most divisive -- those based on race, ethnicity, religion and region. As a matter of fact, our most costly conflict involved a coalition based upon region -- namely the War of 1861.

Many of the issues that divide us, aside from the Iraq war, are those best described as a zero-sum game, where one group's gain is of necessity another's loss. Examples are: racial preferences, Social Security, tax policy, trade restrictions, welfare and a host of other government policies that benefit one American at the expense of another American. You might be tempted to think that the brutal domestic conflict seen in other countries at other times can't happen here. That's nonsense. Americans are not super-humans; we possess the same frailties of other people in other places. If there were a severe economic calamity, I can imagine a political hustler exploiting those frailties here, just as Adolf Hitler did in Germany, blaming it on the Jews, the blacks, the East Coast, Catholics or free trade.

The best thing the president and Congress can do to heal our country is to reduce the impact of government on our lives. Doing so will not only produce a less divided country and greater economic efficiency but bear greater faith and allegiance to the vision of America held by our founders -- a country of limited government.

 

[Duo]

The native american conflinct pails in comparison ???????
Sure, whiping out an almost entire race is totally eclipsed by the Armenian genocide, :?

so for a a country of limited government, hmm, then are u for the abolishing of the Patriot Acts ?

 

[mad pierrot]

Hmmm....

Lots to say here! Being mostly a Libertarian, I have to agree that smaller government is better. The government should, I believe, be there to protect its citizen's rights. (Not to impede them.) On the other hand, leaving the economy and the environment completely in the hands of the "free market" is a bad idea. One would have to be extremely naiive to think that the "free market" has citizens best interests in mind. Before I get accused of being a socialist, let me reiterate. I believe the government should only interfere with business when it threatens the rights of the citizens. For example, I don't believe it is right that the government interferes with the market by giving selective tax cuts and propping up dying companies. On the other, if a major corporation is dumping waste into a lake and people living there don't like it, there should be no question of the companies right to do so, it should be stopped. Actually, I would go so far that even if the people don't want to stop it, but the pollution is threatening to destroy an ecosystem, the government should step in and stop it.

Yes, I know I'm all over the board.

:relief:

 

[Antifederalist]

The native american conflinct pails in comparison ???????
Sure, whiping out an almost entire race is totally eclipsed by the Armenian genocide, :?

so for a a country of limited government, hmm, then are u for the abolishing of the Patriot Acts ?

Section. 8.

Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

The Patriot Act provides for the common Defense of the US.

 

[Fantt]

Some of the bits and pieces of the Patriot Act provide for our Common Defense, but there are large parts of it which seem to be counter to a free society.

Are you willing to give up some of your liberties for more security? I'm not. I think Benjamin Franklin said something about that...

 

[Antifederalist]

Which parts?

 

[Fantt]

From the ACLU's website:

"Under this Act and other Administration actions that were taken without congressional involvement, the government can search your home without notifying you, can get a list of the books you have obtained from your library and your local bookstore and require your local librarian and bookseller to keep this hidden from you, can keep a file on how often you go to church, which churches you attend and the medications you use -- even if these activities have nothing to do with the fight against terrorism ."

Yeah, yeah, it's from the ACLU, but if their information is wrong, let me know how.

 

[Antifederalist]

Sorry, a tad long (not the complete section below. guarenteed unaltered.):

From Title 18, USC

Sec. 2709. Counterintelligence access to telephone toll and
transactional records

(a) Duty to Provide.--A wire or electronic communication service
provider shall comply with a request for subscriber information and toll
billing records information, or electronic communication transactional
records in its custody or possession made by the Director of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation under subsection (b) of this section.
(b) Required Certification.--The Director of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, or his designee in a position not lower than Deputy
Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or a Special Agent in Charge
in a Bureau field office designated by the Director, may--
(1) request the name, address, length of service, and local and
long distance toll billing records of a person or entity if the
Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to the wire or
electronic communication service provider to which the request is
made that the name, address, length of service, and toll billing
records sought are relevant to an authorized investigation to
protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence
activities, provided that such an investigation of a United States
person is not conducted solely on the basis of activities protected
by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and
(2) request the name, address, and length of service of a person
or entity if the Director (or his designee) certifies in writing to
the wire or electronic communication service provider to which the
request is made that the information sought is relevant to an
authorized investigation to protect against international terrorism
or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such an
investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon
the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the
Constitution of the United States.
(e) Requirement That Certain Congressional Bodies Be Informed.--On a
semiannual basis the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
shall fully inform the Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence of the
House of Representatives and the Select Committee on Intelligence of the
Senate, and the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of
Representatives and the Committee on the Judiciary of the Senate,
concerning all requests made under subsection (b) of this section.

Also,

Sec. 2712. Civil actions against the United States

`(a) IN GENERAL- Any person who is aggrieved by any willful violation of this chapter or of chapter 119 of this title or of sections 106(a), 305(a), or 405(a) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) may commence an action in United States District Court against the United States to recover money damages. In any such action, if a person who is aggrieved successfully establishes such a violation of this chapter or of chapter 119 of this title or of the above specific provisions of title 50, the Court may assess as damages--

`(1) actual damages, but not less than $10,000, whichever amount is greater; and

`(2) litigation costs, reasonably incurred.

`(b) PROCEDURES- (1) Any action against the United States under this section may be commenced only after a claim is presented to the appropriate department or agency under the procedures of the Federal Tort Claims Act, as set forth in title 28, United States Code. `(2) Any action against the United States under this section shall be forever barred unless it is presented in writing to the appropriate Federal agency within 2 years after such claim accrues or unless action is begun within 6 months after the date of mailing, by certified or registered mail, of notice of final denial of the claim by the agency to which it was presented. The claim shall accrue on the date upon which the claimant first has a reasonable opportunity to discover the violation.'.

`(3) Any action under this section shall be tried to the court without a jury.

`(4) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the procedures set forth in section 106(f), 305(g), or 405(f) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1801 et seq.) shall be the exclusive means by which materials governed by those sections may be reviewed.

`(5) An amount equal to any award against the United States under this section shall be reimbursed by the department or agency concerned to the fund described in section 1304 of title 31, United States Code, out of any appropriation, fund, or other account (excluding any part of such appropriation, fund, or account that is available for the enforcement of any Federal law) that is available for the operating expenses of the department or agency concerned.

`(c) ADMINISTRATIVE DISCIPLINE- If a court or appropriate department or agency determines that the United States or any of its departments or agencies has violated any provision of this chapter, and the court or appropriate department or agency finds that the circumstances surrounding the violation raise serious questions about whether or not an officer or employee of the United States acted willfully or intentionally with respect to the possible violation, the department or agency shall, upon receipt of a true and correct copy of the decision and findings of the court or appropriate department or agency promptly initiate a proceeding to determine whether disciplinary action against the officer or employee is warranted. If the head of the department or agency involved determines that disciplinary action is not warranted, he or she shall notify the Inspector General with jurisdiction over the department or agency concerned and shall provide the Inspector General with the reasons for such determination.

`(d) EXCLUSIVE REMEDY- Any action against the United States under this subsection shall be the exclusive remedy against the United States for any claims within the purview of this section.

`(e) STAY OF PROCEEDINGS- (1) Upon the motion of the United States, the court shall stay any action commenced under this section if the court determines that civil discovery will adversely affect the ability of the Government to conduct a related investigation or the prosecution of a related criminal case. Such a stay shall toll the limitations periods of paragraph (2) of subsection (b).

`(2) In this subsection, the terms `related criminal case' and `related investigation' mean an actual prosecution or investigation in progress at the time at which the request for the stay or any subsequent motion to lift the stay is made. In determining whether an investigation or a criminal case is related to an action commenced under this section, the court shall consider the degree of similarity between the parties, witnesses, facts, and circumstances involved in the 2 proceedings, without requiring that any one or more factors be identical.

`(3) In requesting a stay under paragraph (1), the Government may, in appropriate cases, submit evidence ex parte in order to avoid disclosing any matter that may adversely affect a related investigation or a related criminal case. If the Government makes such an ex parte submission, the plaintiff shall be given an opportunity to make a submission to the court, not ex parte, and the court may, in its discretion, request further information from either party.'.

(2) The table of sections at the beginning of chapter 121 is amended to read as follows:

`2712. Civil action against the United States.'.

SEC. 224. SUNSET.

(a) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in subsection (b), this title and the amendments made by this title (other than sections 203(a), 203(c), 205, 208, 210, 211, 213, 216, 219, 221, and 222, and the amendments made by those sections) shall cease to have effect on December 31, 2005.

(b) EXCEPTION- With respect to any particular foreign intelligence investigation that began before the date on which the provisions referred to in subsection (a) cease to have effect, or with respect to any particular offense or potential offense that began or occurred before the date on which such provisions cease to have effect, such provisions shall continue in effect.

Additional:

From reading the Patriot Act, we would need all three branches of the US gov't acting in concert for any of us here to have to begin to worry.

Congress has the ability to repeal the act; allow the sections that are able to sunset, sunset; they review every 6 months what the AG and other agencies have been up to.

The Judiciary has to approve any measures to be taken (warrants, wires, seizures, searches, whathaveyou)

I haven't taken anything out of the library in a while (I buy books and have the Internet), I got to church once a week (sometimes I miss), and I take Allegra D for my allergies. [sarcasm]I hope the ACLU will protect me from the gov't getting a hold of that Gold.[/sarcasm]

 

[Duo]

Yeah, you wouldn't laugh if you were the 4 arab kids who got accused for plotting an atack just because of a lil home movie thing they made on their trip to Disneyland. Report smth supicious, so even mail men and gas meters can report you doing smth suspicious, lets say reading a book about airplanes, next thing you know gov looking at your phones, emails etc etc, and if they assume you are up to smth, they can make the evidence they know to guilt you. assuming you are up to smth suspicious, and not that you are innocent till proven guilty, doesn't seem like in the American spirit to me.

 

[Fantt]

Is that the entire Patriot Act, or just some bits?

First, all three branches of the Federal Government are now controlled by one party.

Second, the government has shown over the years that it has no problems with spying on people considered "subversive" even if said people are peaceful (John Lennon, etc).

Third, I consider even the slightest bit of government infringement on my rights to be very offensive. It has always been bad enough without the Patriot Act, and now with it, it appears potentially much worse.

As long as an indivual remains peaceful and doesn't preach violence against the government, the government should never have an excuse to invade that person's privacy, regardless of whatever cooperation is required with whatever branches of the government.

Also, I have no doubt that any law passed giving the government more power to spy will, at some point, be horribly abused. I'm happy for you if you trust your government enough to know that it will never abuse it's power, but I don't.

 

[bossel]

Well, I think it fits in here:

Cat Stevens honoured by Gorbachev
"Singer Yusuf Islam, formerly known as Cat Stevens, has been presented with a Man of Peace award by ex-Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev."

This is the guy who poses such a great threat to the US?

 

[Fantt]

I think our government apologized for that or at least admitted it was a mistake.

 

[Glenn]

Why we're a divided nation
Walter E. Williams (archive)
www.townhall.com


Recent elections pointed to deepening divisions among American people, but has anyone given serious thought to just why? I have part of the answer, which starts off with a simple example.

(snipped for space considerations)

That whole thing looked rather oversimplified to me. The rock-and-roll vs. opera analogy just doesn't seem to cover enough ground for it to be an effective argument.

 

[Duo]

The US is a divided nation, but mainly because there are 2 main groups. Bush's electoral base and those who have been heavily indocrtrinated by him through all the propaganda and scare tactics for the past 3 years, and on the other side, the democrat's electoral base and those who are smart enough to see through the bs.

 

[Tuffy]

We've always been a "nation divided."
That can be accrued to the nature of humankind, I suppose.
Hell, this would be the case even if there were only two of us around!
(Or even one of us if you're schizoid)

 

[Antifederalist]

The US is a divided nation, but mainly because there are 2 main groups. Bush's electoral base and those who have been heavily indocrtrinated by him through all the propaganda and scare tactics for the past 3 years, and on the other side, the democrat's electoral base and those who are smart enough to see through the bs.

Smart people like this man:

Yeah, you wouldn't laugh if you were the 4 arab kids who got accused for plotting an atack just because of a lil home movie thing they made on their trip to Disneyland. Report smth supicious, so even mail men and gas meters can report you doing smth suspicious, lets say reading a book about airplanes, next thing you know gov looking at your phones, emails etc etc, and if they assume you are up to smth, they can make the evidence they know to guilt you. assuming you are up to smth suspicious, and not that you are innocent till proven guilty, doesn't seem like in the American spirit to me.

SEC. 102. SENSE OF CONGRESS CONDEMNING DISCRIMINATION AGAINST ARAB AND MUSLIM AMERICANS.
(a) FINDINGS- Congress makes the following findings:

(1) Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia play a vital role in our Nation and are entitled to nothing less than the full rights of every American.

(2) The acts of violence that have been taken against Arab and Muslim Americans since the September 11, 2001, attacks against the United States should be and are condemned by all Americans who value freedom.

(3) The concept of individual responsibility for wrongdoing is sacrosanct in American society, and applies equally to all religious, racial, and ethnic groups.

(4) When American citizens commit acts of violence against those who are, or are perceived to be, of Arab or Muslim descent, they should be punished to the full extent of the law.

(5) Muslim Americans have become so fearful of harassment that many Muslim women are changing the way they dress to avoid becoming targets.

(6) Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing.

(b) SENSE OF CONGRESS- It is the sense of Congress that--

(1) the civil rights and civil liberties of all Americans, including Arab Americans, Muslim Americans, and Americans from South Asia, must be protected, and that every effort must be taken to preserve their safety;

(2) any acts of violence or discrimination against any Americans be condemned; and

(3) the Nation is called upon to recognize the patriotism of fellow citizens from all ethnic, racial, and religious backgrounds.

 

[Duo]

hahhahaha, that picture is hilarous.

That's all and nice, that decleration, but tell me how many arab students are in the US now ? Way way less than before

 

[Miss_apollo7]

Funny picture!!

Although Senate and Congress have condemned discrimination against Muslims and Arabs, I think that in practice, it happens a lot because of 9/11.
For many Arab students, the United States is a closed country for studying. Many are wrongly accused for being terrorists and their civil rights are taken away from them because of new laws after 9/11.
It is not just in the United States, but here in Denmark, the discriminations reached its peak due to 9/11....of course now it has cooled down at the moment, but they (Arabs) are still targeted.

In a way, it reminds me of witch-hunting in the mediaeval times...or McCarthyism in the 1950s.

 

[No-name]

Ashcroft has had thousands of Arabs and some Arab-Americans detained in the wake of 9/11 and through the PATRIOT-USA act. I don't think there has been a single prosecution- although there have been many deportations. Some say this is a proof that the PATRIOT act illigitamately gives the federal government sweeping powers to retract civil rights and liberties and others cite the lack of any other terrorist attacks.

Who knows?

 

[acquiredtarget]

$.02

I think part of the problem also is us as individuals. Prior to the election, I can't count how many times I was asked who I was going to vote for. Not only was I asked by friends and family, but strangers in stores. depending on how I responded, their reactions were to either be friendly or polite and distant. So I started a little experiement, I wouldn't answer that question. What I noticed is that we have a tendency to judge people on whether their political views. If we are of the same poltical "group think", then its alright to get to know you. If you're one of "them", the opposing "group think" then you are the enemy and shouldn't be considered a citizen.

We are, as individuals, more than just out political beliefs. For example, people have labeled me a "fiscal conservative" and "social liberal" so that means I can't be considered a good Republican or good Democrat. So people judge me on my political views. What they don't know, nor take the time to find out because of their judgements, is that I'm a damn good cook, a decent fellow, and a good friend. This is the problem, more than the division of red and blue states, its the judgement based on politics that I think is causing us to be a divided nation.

By not answering or discussing my politics, I got to see people struggle to find new topics to carry on a convesation. They twisted in the wind so to speak, because they were only thinking on one thing. And it was fun to watch them twist. I know, I know, I'm a baaaaaad man.