Y-DNA Haplogroups in Iraqi Kurdistan

I have a Question to the Admin. While we have the Results of Kurdistan Turkey published, could we also do this with the Results of Kurdistan Iraq?
 
There is no geographic region in Turkey called Kurdistan (it is also absurd to talk about such). If you mean south-east Turkey then the bulk of gentic data would represent intermixed Turkish, Kurdish, Arab, Armenian and Assyrian popula. There are some villages in south-east Turkey even from Turkic Uzbeks settled there during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. So the genetic mass of the region is plentiful.
 
There is no geographic region in Turkey called Kurdistan (it is also absurd to talk about such). If you mean south-east Turkey then the bulk of gentic data would represent intermixed Turkish, Kurdish, Arab, Armenian and Assyrian popula. There are some villages in south-east Turkey even from Turkic Uzbeks settled there during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. So the genetic mass of the region is plentiful.

Well the tested individuals are ethnic Kurds so your statement has no value in this discussion.

The Region in South East and East Anatolia also known as Kurdistan is mainly (the big majority) settled by Kurds so it makes sense to talk about Kurdistan. only a handful Turks, Circassians, Arabs, Armenians and Syriac Christians do live in this Region. We got hundred thousand of Arabs living in turkish Adana and Hatay so it makes no sense to call this Regions turkish just because of some Arabs living there? :rolleyes:


And just to update your (most probably turkish) Brain. There is a recognized autonomous Region in Irak called Kurdistan so it make sense to talk about Iraqi Kurdistan no matter in which pathetic way you try to deny this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan


So my advice for you is look at your own Business if you do not have anything useful to contribute here. :bored:
 
Ethnic Kurds is something different than Kurdistan in Turkey, which as an administrative region does NOT exist. History does not know any clearly defined region with borders called Kurdistan. Such may exist now in Iraq, but that is a different matter. My advise to ignorants like you is know your history Alan. If I would be an Armenian I would be insulted as the same region you called Kurdistan in Turkey is called by Armenias as greater Armenia and I bet history would confirm this fact more than your imaginitive naming of areas as Turkish Kurdistan. If an area has majority of ethnic Kurds this does not allow you to name it Kurdista same as if regions in Thrace and South East Rhodopes are not West Thracian Turkish Republic since popula may be majority Turkish. Show some respect!
 
Ethnic Kurds is something different than Kurdistan in Turkey, which as an administrative region does NOT exist. History does not know any clearly defined region with borders called Kurdistan. Such may exist now in Iraq, but that is a different matter. My advise to ignorants like you is know your history Alan. If I would be an Armenian I would be insulted as the same region you called Kurdistan in Turkey is called by Armenias as greater Armenia and I bet history would confirm this fact more than your imaginitive naming of areas as Turkish Kurdistan. If an area has majority of ethnic Kurds this does not allow you to name it Kurdista same as if regions in Thrace and South East Rhodopes are not West Thracian Turkish Republic since popula may be majority Turkish. Show some respect!

sorry to disappoint your dreams of being Turkic, but Pomaks are just Slavic people who converted to islam during Ottoman rule....

similar happened in other areas ruled by Turks - e.g. in Bosnia there are lot of islamized Slavs as well... Serbs used pejoratyive name Turks for them, but it was clear to everyone they have nothing to do with real Turks except accepting their religion...though being rejected by core of their tribe some of them did start to feel as Turks......there is a saying "sold own religion/identity for dinner" for those who converted... guess same is story with Pomaks in Bulgaria...

thing is those who converted to islam had tax free life and were local administration (police, army and judges), while those who remained christians paid heavy taxes and lived mainly in villages.... such administration was best described by saying "kadija te tuzi, kadija ti sudi" ("kadija accuses you, kadija is judging you" - kadija is person from such an administration who is typically in same time playing both roles of accusing people and of being judge, which in practice means he is convert to islam who is given absolute rights over Christians)..face it, those times when your ancestors were in such a position are gone and will never return... and Pomaks and Bosnia muslims are not turkic in origin...just opportunistic local (Slavic) people who converted to islam...

in Bosnia those opportunistic converts had even no name (in communism they were called Muslims with big 'M' in order to emphasize it is nationality and not religion) till wars in 90s when they took name Bosniacs in order to influence media war by displaying themselves as more autochtonous than Slavic people of Bosnia who are Christians (ortodox Serbs and catholics who identify themselves as Croats)....

anyway, as autosomal testing clearly shows even in Turkey real Turkic genes are only very small part... light blue part (genes from east Asian cluster)

ADMIXTURE_11.png


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/genetic-structure-of-west-eurasians.html


regarding YDNA haplogroups found in Kurds I would notice that they have rather European genetics... and that they might partly origin from European people making military conquests into Asia....

in fact, I think their haplogroup I is related to Serian/Cimmerian/Gomer people who were in my opinion ancestors of early Slavs and Serbs but also of Germans, Sardinians, Venetic people and even of Pashtun Sarbans.. haplogroup R1a is related to Scythians who entered from north of Caucasus and who were later largely incorporated into Slavic and Iranian people....those are haplogroups that distinguish them from surrounding.....
otherwise, J2 might be somewhat related to Indo-Aryans ...and R1b might be perhaps related to proto-Celts who carried copper based technology in Europe and to later Hatti people who lived in Asia minor before Hititte arrived...
 
I have a Question to the Admin. While we have the Results of Kurdistan Turkey published, could we also do this with the Results of Kurdistan Iraq?

Yes, I will add them.

EDIT : I have added the results. The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region. The other haplogroups represent the indigenous populations, very close to Armenia in the case of Turkish Kurdistan, and in between Iraq and Armenia in the case of Iraqi Kurdistan. There is a notable absence of haplogroup T in Iraqi Kurdistan, which is strange as it is fairly high (3 to 7%) in all the surrounding regions.
 
Ethnic Kurds is something different than Kurdistan in Turkey, which as an administrative region does NOT exist. History does not know any clearly defined region with borders called Kurdistan. Such may exist now in Iraq, but that is a different matter. My advise to ignorants like you is know your history Alan. If I would be an Armenian I would be insulted as the same region you called Kurdistan in Turkey is called by Armenias as greater Armenia and I bet history would confirm this fact more than your imaginitive naming of areas as Turkish Kurdistan. If an area has majority of ethnic Kurds this does not allow you to name it Kurdista same as if regions in Thrace and South East Rhodopes are not West Thracian Turkish Republic since popula may be majority Turkish. Show some respect!

Well than I have to disappoint you. I will repeat my self in the hope that you show just a bit of matureness that you understand it.

1. The Topic of this Thread was Iraqi Kurdistan. Not Turkish and not Iranian.
2. Greater Armenia was an Empire just like Persian and Roman Empires were.
3. We have statistical Data that all of this Regions beside three small parts of Van were not in majority Armenian but Muslim most probably kurdish. You have to read Sherefhan al Bidlisis book who lived with his tribe in Bitlis around the 15 Century. The Armenians did even clame parts of the Pontus, were the Pontus Greeks were the majority as Armenia.
4. The Name Kurdistan my dear Thrace was given to this Region with the Seljuks. This was in a time where your ancestors were still Greeks :LOL:. Just look after Ottoman Maps.
5. So according to your (turkish) Logic we should call Izmir, Trapezunt/Trasbzon, Busra/Bursa and Hatay not Turkey because some Greeks and Syrians might feel insulted? :rolleyes:
6. Showing some Respect to a delusional Person who even Claims Kurdistan never existed while the Name Kurdistan actually was given to this Region by the original Turkish Tribes like Seljuks?


I repeat my advice to you, look at your own business :bored:
 
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Yes, I will add them.

EDIT : I have added the results. The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region. The other haplogroups represent the indigenous populations, very close to Armenia in the case of Turkish Kurdistan, and in between Iraq and Armenia in the case of Iraqi Kurdistan. There is a notable absence of haplogroup T in Iraqi Kurdistan, which is strange as it is fairly high (3 to 7%) in all the surrounding regions.


Thank you very much Maciamo (y)


It is not surprising that haplogroup I and R1a are so strong among Kurds. I have red some month ago an Article about West Iran. The Article said that in West Iran they found a good presence of Haplogroup I (20% ) too. And the West of Iran is mainly Kurdish. I think Haplogroup I is something "pan Kurdish" in West Asia/Near East.

Note that it is also very strong in North Iran (20-30%), were the former Parthians lived who are known to have been a tribe of Scythians.
 
The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region. The other haplogroups represent the indigenous populations, very close to Armenia in the case of Turkish Kurdistan, and in between Iraq and Armenia in the case of Iraqi Kurdistan.

yes...interesting point.....
in my posts proto-Slavs are Cimmerians = Serians = Zeruiani and related Veneti (Cimmerians descended from Gomer and Veneti from his son Riphath in Hebrew world view)

but I did count them as I2a people...perhaps they were I2a + R1a already in start

early Slavs

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...t-Thracian-DNA&p=371195&viewfull=1#post371195

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26341-who-were-Slavic-people

Serians/Seres/Siraces/Serboi

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=362464&viewfull=1#post362464

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=361839&viewfull=1#post361839

early Slavs and Kurds

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26233-The-Laz&p=368310&viewfull=1#post368310

Sherdana sea peoples

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples
 
The only similarity between Turkish Kurds and Iraqi Kurds are their high percentage of haplogroups I2 and R1a. This strongly hints at a (Proto-)Slavic migration to the region.

An important question: is the I2 in Kurds mostly I2a-Din or I2*-B? If I2a-Din, I agree, there's an obvious Slavic component of some sort. If I2*-B, we're going to have to start looking for other explanations. I2*-B is the most common I subclade among Armenians and Cretans IIRC, but it's almost unheard of among Slavs.
 
An important question: is the I2 in Kurds mostly I2a-Din or I2*-B? If I2a-Din, I agree, there's an obvious Slavic component of some sort. If I2*-B, we're going to have to start looking for other explanations. I2*-B is the most common I subclade among Armenians and Cretans IIRC, but it's almost unheard of among Slavs.

Kurdish I2 is definitely I2a, and even I2a2 if I remember well.
 
some Serbian/Slavic - Kurdish common words that I found on some blog on internet that are probably non PIE derived and are not iranian/persian

serbian/slavic - kurdish - english

zakon - zagun - law
kazati - kiza - to say (persian : goftan)
dan - dan - day
koza - gîsi[k] - goat
kratko/kortk -kurt - short (Persian: kutah)
ali - lê - but (Persian: ama)
nisko, nizak/nizik - nizim - short (Persian: paeen)
živ - žiy, zîndû -alive (Persian: zendeh)
rdjav (serb)/rezavý(chezh) - rizaw - rusty (Persian: zang/poosideh)
klin - kelen - wedge
grom(a) - girma - thunder (Persian: tondar)
iskra - sikil/eskil - spark (Persian: zhabizh)
bljesak /*blěsk - blîsk/ brûsk -flash
kći (serbian) - kič/dot - daughter (Persian: dokhtar)
žena - žin - woman/wife (Persian: zan)
tama - tam -darkness (Persian: tar)
dol - dol -valley (Persian: dareh)
lov -row - hunt (Persian: shekar)
vera/vir - bir - faith (Persian: din/andishe)
leska/laska - lask - small branch (Persian: shakheh)
Gorani - Gorani - highlanders (exist also as tribal names in both Slavs and Kurds)
jež / ježek - ježek - hedgehog

btw. note that Sorani (Kurdish people) is same tribal name as Serians
and Serians are in my view proto-Slavs

manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that state of Zeruiani (again this is clearly same tribal name as Serians) was so big that all Slavs come from it

Seneca speaks of Serians in Europe, in Caspian highlands, in Serica, around red Sea

Serians of Serica (northwest China/south Siberia) are also known as Seres
Serica is also used in wider term for arc from China to India - this arc is clearly visible in haplogroup I spread and matches exactly Pasthun Sarbans..

some historians claim that Zeruiani = Serbs and that tribal name Serbs was in past used for all Slavic people..

other haplogroup I people have similar tribal names to Serbs (Serbi/Srbi) - Germanic Suebi (I1, I2b), Swedes (I1), Sardinians (I2a1)

Serbs come to Balkan from land they call Boiki and that matches by description Bohemia/Bavaria (both named by tribe Boii)...they are said to have also originally dwelt there

before that south most branch of Celtic Boii are Scordisci... from area of Scordisci (Serbia of today) tribe named Serdi enters Thrace and goes to Asia minor as Celtic invasion

Cimbri are thought to origin from Cimmerians..their king has name (or title?) Boiorix (king of Boii)

Cimmerians settled among other places in Cappadocia..later in Strabo's time Cappadocians are called white Syrians (again this is same tribal name as Serians)

archeological sites of Thraco-Cimmerians in Europe match spread of I2a2 fairly well and also match fairly well spread of early Slavs

but Ptolemy in Caucasus finds Serbi/Serboi as neighbours of Cimmerians... these Serbi and Cimmerians are in Asian Sarmatia and match description of Seneca's Serians living in Caspian highlands among Sarmatians...later after invasion of turkic tribes on same place are turkic Sabirs...Chuvash of today are turkic and considered to origin from Sabirs... their autosomal DNA shows much larger Slavic genetics then turkic...

Sherden/Serden/Shardana are among sea people whose conquest went from northern lands over Asia minor, middle East, all the way to Egypt.. - a lake in Egypt is named after them Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis

Cimmerians are also known as Gomer - sons of Gomer who is considered to be father of Germanic people...
Sorani language of Kurdish people has dialect Garmiani

I2a1 is found in north Africa in Lybia - there was a rich civilization of Garmantes that has used irrigation system to turn desert into agricultural land.. ..their capital Germa is near modern town Sebha

province Kerman in Persia is also known as Germania/Zermanya... province also falls into shape spread of haplogroup I (low frequencies) ... word Kerman means battle/combat

Boii in Slavic languages means battle (boj).. related Slavic words include vojnik/bojovnik (soldier), vojvoda (leader of army - coin word boj(battle) + voditi (lead))

religion of Thracian people includes cult of thracian horseman - Sabazios (coin word Saba+Zeus) .. in thracian language sabazias = free

tribal name Suebi probably meant 'free' (people who do not subjugate)

Asia minor is settled first by Hatti then by Hittite...
Hatti have key god Taru, which is same as Germanic Thor
one of Germanic tribes is called Chatti

Hittite call same god Tarhun, which maps to Slavic Perun and Baltic Perkunas
 
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some Serbian/Slavic - Kurdish common words that I found on some blog on internet that are probably non PIE derived and are not iranian/persian

serbian/slavic - kurdish - english

...


Most of this words you have listed (not all ) are exclusive to Sorani and Gorani-Leki Kurdish.

About the Ancestors of Kurds. What I am very sure about is, that the Alans(Sarmatians), Hurro-Urartains(Mitanni) Hethits, Scytho-Medians and Cimmerians played the biggest roles.

Alan is a big well known Kurdish tribe. Alan is also a very popular kurdish Sure and last name. Even a big Kurdish Region in Iranian Kurdistan is named Erdalan. H/Erd means Ground, Earth and Alan means The Alan. Erdalan = the Land of Alans.

They did found Stone tablets in a kurdish Region of Turkish Kurdistan which are similar to those found in Cimmeria and some places of Central Asia what makes me assume that they are Cimmerian.

The Scytho-Median (The Scythians who moved into Media) traces are obvious among Kurd. You can find only in Regions were the Kurds make today the majority traces of Sakas/Scythians. The Capital of Medic Scythia was Saggez which comes from the Word Saka. In Kurdish the City is called Sêwî what is a form of Gold in Kurdish. Scythians were known for being very Gold interested.

There was also a Scythian King in North Iraq. The only People who might be descend of those People can only be Kurds. I think Iranian(Scytho-Medians, Alans, Mitannis, Cimmerians), Hethit and Caucasian (Hurro-Urartaen) groups played the biggest roles in the Kurdish Case.
 
Most of this words you have listed (not all ) are exclusive to Sorani and Gorani-Leki Kurdish.

About the Ancestors of Kurds. What I am very sure about is, that the Alans(Sarmatians), Hurro-Urartains, Hethits, Scytho-Medians and Cimmerians played the biggest roles.

Alan is a big well known Kurdish tribe. Alan is also a very popular kurdish Sure and last name. Even a big Kurdish Region in Iranian Kurdistan is named Erdalan. H/Erd means Ground, Earth and Alan means The Alan. Erdalan = the Land of Alans. They did found Stone tablets in a kurdish Region of Turkish Kurdistan which are similar to those found in Cimmeria and some places of Central Asia what makes me assume that they are Cimmerian.

Some historians list Serbs into Sarmatians and even into Alans, but I am not sure about that...Seneca's Serians lived among Sarmatians but were not the same...

Ossetians are thought to descend of Alans but they are dominantly haplogroup G...though in one of tested towns they have also significant haplogroup I...

Serbi/Serboi lived in Asian Sarmatia just north of Alans, which may explain significant haplogroup I in north most town of Ossetians

The Scytho-Median (The Scythians who moved into Media) traces are obvious among Kurd. You can find only in Regions were the Kurds make today the majority traces of Sakas/Scythians. The Capital of Medic Scythia was Saggez which comes from the Word Saka. In Kurdish the City is called Sêwî what is a form of Gold in Kurdish. Scythians were known for being very Gold interested.

regarding tribal name Scythians, word "skitati' in serbian means to wonder around
while Scythians are known as Saka, 'sakaliba' is word that was used by Arabs for Slavic people in medieval period

"wondering around"is about nomad lifestyle...Tacitus remark about Vistula Veneti indicates that ancient historians from Rome and Greece classified tribes of north Europe into Germanic and Sarmatians by the lifestyle... the tribes who lived settled in houses were Germanic and the ones who lived as nomads were classified as Sarmatians - at least Tacitus used such explanation when he classified Vistula Veneti in Germanic tribes...

Jordanes says that Slavs are from race of Veneti
Veneti also lived in Paphlagonia, but were kicked out of there after joint expedition with related Cimmerians (Paplagonians are in Hebrew world sons of Riphat who is son of Gomer)

Slavs are knows as Wends by Germanic people
wandelen (dutch)= wonder around, move in different directions
related is word Wind in Germanic languages ...as wind is moving in different directions

Greek mythology often hides legends of origin of tribes..
Venti is italian name for Greek wind gods (Anemoi)... .
key wind gods are: Boreas - the north wind and bringer of cold winter air, Notus - the south wind and bringer of the storms of late summer and autumn, Zephyrus - the west wind and bringer of light spring and early summer breezes; Eurus - the east wind.. son of Zephyrus was Carpus

I map Eurus to Russians, Zephyrus to Serbs, Carpus to Croats, Boreas to Hyperboreans... Notus I do not know how to map to a tribal name

regarding word "Sêwî "
gold = zlato in Slavic languages
but word for silver is "srebro" which may be remotely similar to "Sêwî "


Scythians are based on ancient DNA thought to be dominantly R1a haplogroup
I believe Cimmerians and Veneti were dominantly I2a

east and west Slavs are dominantly R1a with significant I2a2
south Slavs are dominant I2a2 with significant R1a

There was also a Scythian King in North Iraq. The only People who might be descend of those People can only be Kurds. I think Iranian(Scytho-Medians, Alans, Cimmerians), Hethit and Caucasian (Hurro-Urartaen) groups played the biggest roles in the Kurdish Case.
yes, I think all of them...
and some (or all?) of them are same people

Sarmatians are Medians and in Greek legends origin from group of Scythians marrying group of Amazones...thus Sarmatians and perhaps also Sarmatian Alans would be Scytho-Medians in origin

and I was wondering whether Sarmatians are same as Cimmerians
now I think Scythians were R1a, Cimmerians were I2a and Sarmatians were R1a, I2a2 and G
Alans were probably haplogroup G

Hittite have primary God whose name (Tarhun) and description maps fairly well to Slavic primary God (Perun)..Son of Tarhun is Sarruma (mountain God) who perhaps could be origin for tribal name Sarmatians

Tarhun (also known as Teshub) was carried in wagon that was using two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri
I map these to tribal names Serians and Hurians

You mean the People of Germian.
probably... I found word Garmiani on internet when reading about Sorani language
 
Sarmatians are Medians and in Greek legends origin from group of Scythians marrying group of Amazones...thus Sarmatian Alans would be Scytho-Medians in origin

Thats why I was talking about Scytho- Medians. Heredotus the Greek mentioned that the Medians were made up by six or seven tribes. two of them were later well known Scythian. Another interesting tribe of Medians was called "Aryan" there is even today a kurdish tribe with the tribe Name Aryan. I have a assume, it might be possible that the Medes were something like a Mother Group from which all the other Iranic tribes did evolved.


Ossetians are thought to descend of Alans but they are dominantly haplogroup G...though in one of tested towns they have also significant haplogroup I...

South Ossetians are mainly of Haplogroup G. Ossetians of Dardania have beside of Haplogroup G also a good portion of I and R1a too. Very similar to Kurds. I think the Alans(Sarmatians) were mainly G, R1a, J* and I
 
Most of this words you have listed (not all ) are exclusive to Sorani and Gorani-Leki Kurdish.
hm, that can be expected as those tribal names exist related to Slavs
Zeruiani from whom Slavs origin- Serians of Seneca - Sorani
Gorani - Gorani

are they distinguished from other Kurds by R1a or I2a? or both?
 
hm, that can be expected as those tribal names exist related to Slavs
Zeruiani from whom Slavs origin- Serians of Seneca - Sorani
Gorani - Gorani

are they distinguished from other Kurds by R1a or I2a? or both?

Well the Sorans were originally just a group of Gorans who were influenced by Kurmancs. The Word Goran means Farmer or Shepheard of the Mountains. Well there are indeed some small differences. The Sorans and Gorans have higher Percentage of Haplogroup J2* compared to Kurmancis and Zaza. I also assume that most of the J2* found in Iraqi Kurdistan was from the Goran and Soran Regions.

in Compare of Haplogroup R1a1a* they are pretty much similar.
 

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