Y DNA R1b and homosexuality

[Fire Haired14]

The inner-cities of America are a wild-west type scenario. Plenty of guys carry guns or knifes around everyday.

 

[Alpenjager]

Were these people of similar ethnic backgrounds? If you compared an R1b Swede, an I1 Swede, and an R1b Scot, you might actually discover that the two Swedes were more similar to each other than either of them was to the Scot.

Yes, All of them grew down the same cultural influences and have similar ethnic background.

One problem with measuring "femininity" is that it is not an easy concept to define formally or quantitatively. In addition to there being no clear model for giving someone a femininity "score", there is also the issue that ideas on what is and what is not "feminine" varies from culture to culture and from time period to time period. For example, some cultures (including one in which R1b predominates) do not consider skirts to be inherently feminine.

I agree. As "most femenine" I mean most close to the behavior generally shared among all womans. I never considered "skirts" as "femenine behavior", some guy could be very masculine and dress a skirt but also other guy could be most femenine and dress a skirt.

 

[RobertColumbia]

...I agree. As "most femenine" I mean most close to the behavior generally shared among all womans. I never considered "skirts" as "femenine behavior", some guy could be very masculine and dress a skirt but also other guy could be most femenine and dress a skirt.

How would you define "feminine behavior"? Most of the obvious things have obvious counterexamples in modern or ancient cultures.

 

[Alpenjager]

"Sex beyond the genitalia: The human brain mosaic" Daphna Joel et al. 2015

pnas . org / content / early / 2015 / 11 / 24 / 1509654112

 

[redeyednewt]

I have heard that being bisexual, gay, lesbian, or transgendered is genetic but people from all genetic backgrounds and heritages around the world are LGBT; but in some countries if you come out you risk imprisonment and death.

 

[RobertColumbia]

I have heard that being bisexual, gay, lesbian, or transgendered is genetic but people from all genetic backgrounds and heritages around the world are LGBT; but in some countries if you come out you risk imprisonment and death.

Great point. Do you think that the genetic influences indicate a common origin (e.g. that all gay people are descended from a single person who was the original gay person), or do you think that the mutations arose at different times in different places?

 

[DuPidh]

There is a great debate right now as to whether homosexuality is genetic or learned, homosexuals themselves strongly believe that they are "born this way". I present to you my research into the topic.

First I will reference this map of the legality of homosexuality in Europe contrasted against the spread of Y DNA Haplogroup R1b in Europe.

You can easily see that homosexuality is only legal in European countries where the y dna haplogroup r1b is most common.

As we already know R1b is directly tied to the spread of the celtic cultures in europe.
(Map of the spread of celtic cultures below, also correlates to homosexuality legality status).

To finalize this theory I present a quote from the great Greek philosopher Aristolte and a later Roman Historian on the sexual preferences of the celts (taken from the celtic wikipedia page)

According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers (Politics II 1269b).^[77] H. D. Rankin in Celts and the Classical World notes that "Athenaeus echoes this comment (603a) and so does Ammianus (30.9). It seems to be the general opinion of antiquity."^[78] In book XIII of his Deipnosophists, the Roman Greek rhetorician and grammarian Athenaeus, repeating assertions made by Diodorus Siculus in the 1st century BC (Bibliotheca historica 5:32), wrote that Celtic women were beautiful but that the men preferred to sleep together. Diodorus went further, stating that "the young men will offer themselves to strangers and are insulted if the offer is refused".



I think it is fair to say that r1b most likely carries the gene responsible for homosexuality.

It appears as homos are predominantly Northern Europeans. And that's an indication of some genetic disorder. If you go to Southern Europe you would be amazed how many bold people you will see. Another genetic disorder. But homosexuality is documented that has existed in Greece 4 000 years ago. Go in museums and see male sex scenes in their pottery or sculptures of Romans. So its not that its unknown.

 

[Fire Haired14]

It appears as homos are predominantly Northern Europeans.

By Northern European you mean NorthWest European, primary Germany, France, British Isles, and Scandinavia? I haven't seen confirmation NorthWest European is a real genetic category.

I haven't read anything that makes a Swede closer to an Irishman as opposed to Polish or Russian. Saying there's a special relation between Scandinavians with Irish is far-fetched and unproven. I see it as a Isles Celts, Norse(and Germans?), and Gaul(??, no idea what's going on here, France is very diverse). Two distinct regions, and a mysterious Gaul/France and Germany. I don't see any reason to associate France, British Isles, Germany, and Scandinavia all together as one big category.


Anyways, I'd expect NorthWest European countries to have higher percentage of homosexuals because to be the case because they're the mostly Liberal. Think about it: Britian, France, and Germany have been powerhouses for 100s of years and the center of liberalism. It'll be hard to find a homosexual in the SouthEast United States, where everyone is basically 100% British. Or in Western United States, where everyone is 100% NorthWest European.

If Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, etc. are very similar to NorthWest Europeans genetically, why are they so much more conservative and non-homosexual? Obviously the difference is cultural not genetic.

 

[Boreas]

How do we explain lesbians?

 

[LeBrok]

By Northern European you mean NorthWest European, primary Germany, France, British Isles, and Scandinavia? I haven't seen confirmation NorthWest European is a real genetic category.

I haven't read anything that makes a Swede closer to an Irishman as opposed to Polish or Russian. Saying there's a special relation between Scandinavians with Irish is far-fetched and unproven. I see it as a Isles Celts, Norse(and Germans?), and Gaul(??, no idea what's going on here, France is very diverse). Two distinct regions, and a mysterious Gaul/France and Germany. I don't see any reason to associate France, British Isles, Germany, and Scandinavia all together as one big category.


Anyways, I'd expect NorthWest European countries to have higher percentage of homosexuals because to be the case because they're the mostly Liberal. Think about it: Britian, France, and Germany have been powerhouses for 100s of years and the center of liberalism. It'll be hard to find a homosexual in the SouthEast United States, where everyone is basically 100% British. Or in Western United States, where everyone is 100% NorthWest European.

If Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, etc. are very similar to NorthWest Europeans genetically, why are they so much more conservative and non-homosexual? Obviously the difference is cultural not genetic.

That's right. Gays and lesbians are more openly visible (out of closet) in more open and tolerant societies like Western Europe. On genetic level there is not much difference among Europeans to explain homosexuality in numbers between nations.

 

[RobertColumbia]

...Anyways, I'd expect NorthWest European countries to have higher percentage of homosexuals because to be the case because they're the mostly Liberal. Think about it: Britian, France, and Germany have been powerhouses for 100s of years and the center of liberalism. It'll be hard to find a homosexual in the SouthEast United States, where everyone is basically 100% British. Or in Western United States, where everyone is 100% NorthWest European....

Having spent many years in the USA, I'd say that the trend is more that it is easier to be "out" as a homosexual in certain areas, and this leads to many homosexuals migrating to those areas. Many (but not all) of these areas are in the northeast, and that feeds into the cycle of Northeast USA = Gay.

Going back to the R1b map, there's something missing. What about the African R1b-V88 in Nigeria and Cameroon? That area is well known for being very homophobic. Also, look at Scandinavia. I1 is more common there than R1b, but it is still a gay-friendly area. While I think that a genetic factor is plausible, I don't think that just identifying a haplogroup is going to do it. There are likely some autosomal factors, as well as some sociocultural and sociopolitical trends that could be influenced by genetics but could also be caused by other (non-genetic) circumstantial factors.

 

[Angela]

If this scholar is correct, homosexual relations between an adolescent boy and an older more experienced warrior with which we're familiar from classical Greek culture was actually part of the Indo-European culture from the beginning, and would have spread with their culture.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1...ge&q=Indo-Europeans and homosexuality&f=false

If that's the case it would have involved all the y-Dna haplogroup carriers who were involved, including R1a. That may explain the pederasty in the Afghan tribes. It's also very common in Arab countries as well, however, which is why the hypocrisy of the ISIS fundamentalist ravings in regard to homosexuality is particularly infuriating. PLO leader Arafat was notorious in that regard, leading to all sorts of rumors that he died of AIDS.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/

 

[Fire Haired14]

If this scholar is correct, homosexual relations between an adolescent boy and an older more experienced warrior with which we're familiar from classical Greek culture was actually part of the Indo-European culture from the beginning, and would have spread with their culture.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1...ge&q=Indo-Europeans and homosexuality&f=false

If that's the case it would have involved all the y-Dna haplogroup carriers who were involved, including R1a. That may explain the pederasty in the Afghan tribes. It's also very common in Arab countries as well, however, which is why the hypocrisy of the ISIS fundamentalist ravings in regard to homosexuality is particularly infuriating. PLO leader Arafat was notorious in that regard, leading to all sorts of rumors that he died of AIDS.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/

That's pretty unlikely. A few cases in Afghanistan or Greece, doesn't mean 3000 BC PIE did that. The system in Afghanistan is a tradition of abuse anyways. It's not as if it's a culture-trait or whatever. It's the result of a world of pedophiles with guns. The ancient Greeks were known perverts, I don't think we can use them to represent any norm.

 

[LeBrok]

That's pretty unlikely. A few cases in Afghanistan or Greece, doesn't mean 3000 BC PIE did that. The system in Afghanistan is a tradition of abuse anyways. It's not as if it's a culture-trait or whatever. It's the result of a world of pedophiles with guns. The ancient Greeks were known perverts, I don't think we can use them to represent any norm.

Few cases? Check Spartan Culture. It was so prevalent that their law was modified to allow a wife to sleep with other Spartan warrior in order to make a baby! Number of spartans was dropping through centuries till only 1,000 left, and dissipated into general population of the region. I guess, there was a bit too many gays and lasbiens and too few straight to sustain the population.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Few cases? Check Spartan Culture. It was so prevalent that their law was modified to allow a wife to sleep with other Spartan warrior in order to make a baby! Number of spartans was dropping through centuries till only 1,000 left, and dissipated into general population of the region. I guess, there was a bit too many gays and lasbiens and too few straight to sustain the population.

That's surprising and interesting. A population that won't reproduce, scary. IMO, it is the result of their circumstances. I don't think it's representative of any norm. Just like circumstance in prison leads to homosexuality. If isolated for years, people will likely resort or sticks or animals or whatever.

 

[Sile]

How do we explain lesbians?

Their fathers where R1b

 

[Promenade]

How do we explain lesbians?

Ha, I laughed when i saw this, probably the most sane comment in this thread.

As far as I know homosexuality is greatly influenced by hormonal imbalance in the womb. I often see people trying to relate Haplogroups to certain traits but I dont think I've ever seen a substantial scientific study proving a causation between Haplogroups and any traits that wasn't actually caused by some other factor.

I recall reading somewhere that people with y-dna N make better weightlifters and people with y-dna T make better sprinters but I'm not sure I believe any of that.

 

[Promenade]

If this scholar is correct, homosexual relations between an adolescent boy and an older more experienced warrior with which we're familiar from classical Greek culture was actually part of the Indo-European culture from the beginning, and would have spread with their culture.
https://books.google.com/books?id=1...ge&q=Indo-Europeans and homosexuality&f=false

If that's the case it would have involved all the y-Dna haplogroup carriers who were involved, including R1a. That may explain the pederasty in the Afghan tribes. It's also very common in Arab countries as well, however, which is why the hypocrisy of the ISIS fundamentalist ravings in regard to homosexuality is particularly infuriating. PLO leader Arafat was notorious in that regard, leading to all sorts of rumors that he died of AIDS.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy/

I would tend to think its completely cultural. Look at western Europe from to the fall of Rome to 1900 and you would never assume there was correlation between homosexuality and R1b more than any Haplogroup or place on the planet.

Yet only a couple centuries prior the fall of Rome Plato was writing in the Republic one of the most important books ever written about the temptation to lust after young male pupils and only a few decades after 1900 many western European nations had allowed for same sex marriage.

I believe its just modern "liberal" beliefs and ancient indo european beliefs somewhat overlapping on that one issue. Christianity dominated the cultural attitude toward homosexuality in europe for many years and had been itself influenced by early Semitic views on it(which may have arisen due to cleanliness i.e preventing the spread of STD and then became infused with religious doctrine later on). With rise of Islam in Europe we may even see this happen again as attitudes about homosexuality shift back to another cultural source. What I'm trying to show here is that the trend is transient due to the culture of the time.

It seems in ancient times homosexuality was really a cultural event among warrior peoples or warrior classes, we see it in the Samurai who have nothing to do with Indo Europeans. It was most likely a cultural phenomenon shared among warrior classes or peoples because of their lack of contact with women and strong bond forming with other men. Other cultures may have developed differently and seen it as uncleanly as I described before with Semitic groups, the decision whether to accept it or not probably depended on the cultures environment and which option had the less detrimental consequence.

 

[Maleth]

Homosexuality is perfectly normal in the animal kingdom (in smaller percentages just as in humans) and so is Bi sexuality by the way. What haplogroups do these animals carry? and Im not talking just about Bonobo's the closest animal to humans but an array of animal groups. Very natural and nothing disorderly and none of them are persecuted but a part of the clan.

 

[Maleth]

Their fathers where R1b

The term Lesbian is derived from the Greek Island of Lesbos...not exactly an Rlb stronghold ....tho like male gays they would be found in equal percentages in any society in the world :grin: