Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity
- Thread starter Garrick
- Start date
- Status
and you? bulgarian or serbian? either way you're a slav Considering greece has been a melting pot of different peopels for thousands of years, why does it matter again? Don't ridicule me on propaganda, I have shown none, on the other hand you continually spew out prapaganda to pursure your "macedonian" crusade of lies started by Tito. Your parents had an escuse for being grown up under communism, you have none. Ancient Macedons were greek, we have primary written evidence to say so. We have archeaological evidence to say so. You have nothing to say they were not. PERIOD.
P.S. let me educate you a bit. Written evidence and archeological evidence is what historians base their arguments on. Show me primary evidence to suggest Macedons were not hellenic. I don't think you can. (post in the other thread about macedonians, but I don't think you will be able to find anything to post)
P.S. let me educate you a bit. Written evidence and archeological evidence is what historians base their arguments on. Show me primary evidence to suggest Macedons were not hellenic. I don't think you can. (post in the other thread about macedonians, but I don't think you will be able to find anything to post)
iapetoc
Junior Member
DejaVu?
for you Greeks are sub-saharan are the Albanians also Sub-Saharan?
what do mean by that sub-saharan, what are you trying to prove?
now about about Albania and Epirus or Makedonia,
Albanien
maybe is different, think of that,
Albanian language is satem like Serbian,
Epirus and Makedonia is centum
the split of E was done in far anciety,
by spreading ..... like DejaVu does
you prove nothing
now about Arbanitet
Ask them what they are
as also the Souliotet who left Bulgaria (mandritsa) and live all in Greece
and i have found many to discuss
also Moschopolis Voskopoje in Albanian
probably you have never meet any of them,
or your Nationalism blinds you
probably as Dejavu ancestors were In Fyrom communist party
your ancestors were with Baraba pasa or Emver Hotza
or you read only Xtra nationalistic Books
calm down and be fake like your Neighbor Fyrom
Genetics proves that a part of Ancient Greeks and a part of Ancient south west Illyrian are same,
read History to find out why and how,
and read history to find who were Epirotans and Makedonians,
and how many Illyrians were in Alexander court, as also how many Thracians etc.
Makedonians were centum not satem, as also Epirotans
iapetoc
Junior Member
DejaVU
If I have sub-saharan mtDNA,
then what ?
If I have sub-saharan mtDNA,
then what ?
DejaVu
Regular Member
- Messages
- 573
- Reaction score
- 42
- Points
- 0
Nothing, you continue to be what you feel like. You decide that and nobody else.
DejaVu
Regular Member
- Messages
- 573
- Reaction score
- 42
- Points
- 0
The dorian invasion does not prove anything because evidence are not found by anyone and can be a fairytale only. Many evidence facts are missing in antiquity so we can only assume not proof everything.
But ofcourse it must be mentioned anyway and maybe some facts will show up by research, escavations and DNA.
The search for unknown continues forever.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
The Dorian invasion is a concept devised by historians of Ancient Greece to explain the replacement of pre-classical dialects and traditions in southern Greece by the ones that prevailed in Classical Greece.
Classical scholars saw in the legend a hypothetically real event they termed the Dorian invasion. The meaning of the concept has changed several times, as historians, philologists and archaeologists used it in attempts to explain the cultural discontinuities expressed in the data of their fields.
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
Dorian invasion is not Temenus returns, maybe it is the new invented version for greeks. iapetoc, continue to be in your fantasy dream.
Last edited:
iapetoc
Junior Member
DejaVu you are still in another world
Dorian Invasion is also Temenus return
it was not an invasion from north,
but from Thessaly to Peloponese
same time the Argeiad Makedonian invesion was done from Thessaly to Pieria-Ematheia
and same time Lokroi Makedonians invade West Makedonia (Brygia) also From Thessaly
Dorian Invasion is also Temenus return
it was not an invasion from north,
but from Thessaly to Peloponese
same time the Argeiad Makedonian invesion was done from Thessaly to Pieria-Ematheia
and same time Lokroi Makedonians invade West Makedonia (Brygia) also From Thessaly
DejaVu
Regular Member
- Messages
- 573
- Reaction score
- 42
- Points
- 0
Who is in another world? Time to open your fanatic view or you cant handle it? Fairytales is ok for you but not for me.
The Dorian invasion is a concept devised by historians of Ancient Greece to explain the replacement of pre-classical dialects and traditions in southern Greece by the ones that prevailed in Classical Greece. The latter were named Dorian by the ancient Greek writers after the historical population that owned them, the Dorians.
Greek legend asserted that the Dorians took possession of the Peloponnesus in an event called the Return of the Heracleidae. Classical scholars saw in the legend a hypothetically real event they termed the Dorian invasion. The meaning of the concept has changed several times, as historians, philologists and archaeologists used it in attempts to explain the cultural discontinuities expressed in the data of their fields. The pattern of arrival of Dorian culture on certain islands in the Mediterranean, such as Crete, is also not well elucidated. The Dorians colonised a number of sites on Crete such as Lato.
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
DejaVu
Regular Member
- Messages
- 573
- Reaction score
- 42
- Points
- 0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
The Dorians (Greek: Δωριεῖς, Dōrieis, singular Δωριεύς, Dōrieus) were one of the four major tribes into which the Ancient Greeks of the Classical period divided themselves.
The Dorians are almost always simply referenced as just "the Dorians", as they are in the earliest literary mention of them in Odyssey, where they already can be found inhabiting the island of Crete. Herodotus does use the word ethnos with regard to them, from which the English word ethnic derives, which appears in the modern concept of ethnic group. It has to be clarified though, that in the ancient Greek language ethnos by no means can be translated as 'nation' alone, but rather as 'tribe', 'race' or 'people'. The Dorians are clearly among the peoples regarded as Hellenes. They were diverse in way of life and social organization, varying from the populous trade center of the city of Corinth, known for its ornate style in art and architecture, to the isolationist, military state of Lacedaemon or Sparta. However, peoples belonging to the same tribe, the Dorians, as well as the Aeolians and the Ionians, were further subdivided in independent groups often hostile to each other, usually named after the location of their state.
The Dorians (Greek: Δωριεῖς, Dōrieis, singular Δωριεύς, Dōrieus) were one of the four major tribes into which the Ancient Greeks of the Classical period divided themselves.
The Dorians are almost always simply referenced as just "the Dorians", as they are in the earliest literary mention of them in Odyssey, where they already can be found inhabiting the island of Crete. Herodotus does use the word ethnos with regard to them, from which the English word ethnic derives, which appears in the modern concept of ethnic group. It has to be clarified though, that in the ancient Greek language ethnos by no means can be translated as 'nation' alone, but rather as 'tribe', 'race' or 'people'. The Dorians are clearly among the peoples regarded as Hellenes. They were diverse in way of life and social organization, varying from the populous trade center of the city of Corinth, known for its ornate style in art and architecture, to the isolationist, military state of Lacedaemon or Sparta. However, peoples belonging to the same tribe, the Dorians, as well as the Aeolians and the Ionians, were further subdivided in independent groups often hostile to each other, usually named after the location of their state.
Last edited:
Albanien
What you spam the topic (and not only you) no matter, so you contribute its popularity.
I nice asked all of you to write about Macedonia in appropriate topic because there are other topics about Macedonia on which you and everyone can contribute.
But here you showing that you are not familiar enough with the world of haplogroups.
There was no invasion of the Slavs, nor R1a is is something special expressed in the Balkans.
Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:
"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."
Source:
http://www.worldacademy.org/files/DNA_Genealogy_Part_2.pdf
Only if you do not mean an invasion of the Slavs occurred 12,000 years ago.
Now see the results R1a haplogroup:
Albania, 9,8% (Semino et al)
Albanians in Macedonia, 12,6% (Noveski et al)
Serbia, 14,5% (Mirabal et al)
Macedonians, 15,2% (Pericic et al), 14,2% (Noveski et al)
Greece, 8,3% (Semino et al, Helgason et al)
That old R1a population is fairly evenly distributed, not much more of the Serbs and Slav Macedonians compared to Albanians.
When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense.
South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.
Only you can prove your "Slavic invasion" if you have some other Y-DNA sources where you can surpass Klyosov and existing Y-DNA findings.
Albanien
If we start to put pictures, this topic can be turned into a photo album about Albanians and Berbers.
iapetoc
Junior Member
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus
In Greek mythology, Temenus (Greek: Τήμενος, Tēmenos) was a son of Aristomachus and brother of Cresphontes and Aristodemus. He was a great-great-grandson of Heracles and helped lead the fifth and final attack on Mycenae in the Peloponnese. He became King of Argos. He was the father of Ceisus, Káranos, Phalces, Agraeus, and Hyrnetho. Káranos was the first king of Macedonia and founder of the royal Macedonian dynasty, the Temenids or Argeads, which culminated in the sons of Alexander the Great five centuries later.
This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heraclids", is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical.
dejavu the Makedonians came from Thessaly to west makedonia and the Argeiads from the city of Heracleia and Dion to central Makedonia
the Argeiads were Dorians but the Makedonians were Aeolians
That is why Alexander when kick as.. of sparta did not burn the city
The dorians did not come out of Greece
it was an inner movement to claim thrones - change kings
that is why the messinians who ruled sparta became farmers, and the Arcadians who were relatives became free but not Spartans
The dorians did not invade Greece, the dorians where ever they went they were accepted
and mainly move to specific places that were known before only the messinians did not accept them cause
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
as you see Dejavu Hercules travel to cities like -issa, in Thessaly
he is lost somewhere in the land of lapiths brothers of magnets
lapiths and centars loved horses as Makedonians did
that is why Dorians did brought IE language,
But probably knew IE
the Homerick Language
The language used by Homer is an archaic version of Ionic Greek, with admixtures from certain other dialects, such as Aeolic Greek. It later served as the basis of Epic Greek, the language of epic poetry, typically in dactylic hexameter.
land that today speak dorian is in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language
Garrick you are right I m not going to write any more here about that
In Greek mythology, Temenus (Greek: Τήμενος, Tēmenos) was a son of Aristomachus and brother of Cresphontes and Aristodemus. He was a great-great-grandson of Heracles and helped lead the fifth and final attack on Mycenae in the Peloponnese. He became King of Argos. He was the father of Ceisus, Káranos, Phalces, Agraeus, and Hyrnetho. Káranos was the first king of Macedonia and founder of the royal Macedonian dynasty, the Temenids or Argeads, which culminated in the sons of Alexander the Great five centuries later.
This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heraclids", is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical.
dejavu the Makedonians came from Thessaly to west makedonia and the Argeiads from the city of Heracleia and Dion to central Makedonia
the Argeiads were Dorians but the Makedonians were Aeolians
That is why Alexander when kick as.. of sparta did not burn the city
The dorians did not come out of Greece
it was an inner movement to claim thrones - change kings
that is why the messinians who ruled sparta became farmers, and the Arcadians who were relatives became free but not Spartans
The dorians did not invade Greece, the dorians where ever they went they were accepted
and mainly move to specific places that were known before only the messinians did not accept them cause
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
as you see Dejavu Hercules travel to cities like -issa, in Thessaly
he is lost somewhere in the land of lapiths brothers of magnets
lapiths and centars loved horses as Makedonians did
that is why Dorians did brought IE language,
But probably knew IE
the Homerick Language
The language used by Homer is an archaic version of Ionic Greek, with admixtures from certain other dialects, such as Aeolic Greek. It later served as the basis of Epic Greek, the language of epic poetry, typically in dactylic hexameter.
land that today speak dorian is in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language
Garrick you are right I m not going to write any more here about that
Last edited:
Regulus
Regular Member
This well described. The only thing that I would recomment to Iapetoc is to stop defending your position. You have done that enough.
The emphasis now should be on sorting the facts and specifically the dates of the southward migrations of the Slavic peoples. Once a clear picture of that is laid out, the position that ancient Macedonians were Slavic or had a major Slavic component becomes untenable by default. In others words, once it is established that Slavic tribes did not live in or near that location until roughly a thousand years later, there really is no longer any room to argue the point.
I had wanted to start a thread specifically about the regional origins of those we could clearly identify as Slavic or proto-Slavic peoples. I keep getting tied up with ongoing projects at work and am very busy in the evenings helping my High School 9th grade son with home work and assisting of physical exercises. In addition to that, I am Vice President of our local youth baseball league and am struggling to get enough local businesses to help this year with sponsorships of our program for this spring season. Perhaps now is the time to start the thread on that topic. If you can get together enough basic information to start the thread, I would be happy to add to it with posts when I can.
I just can’t find the time to do it myself now.
Regulus
I totally agree with you that today's Slav Macedonians are not ancient Macedonians.
In the dispute between Greece and FYROM Macedonia there is no doubt that the Greeks are right.
...
But now I want something else to say.
Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).
Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:
"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."
Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.
When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.
If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.
Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.
Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.
When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.
It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.
...
Today Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians, it is likely to issue a Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia.
Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.
Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians.
But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived Paeones.
There is a likelihood that the Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans, if it proves today Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond, also from I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians.
...
And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic.
Regulus
Regular Member
Garrick, thank you. I am able to see this agrument much more clearly. As you requested, I will continue my reply on the correct thread. What you write makes sense to me.
Neander
Regular Member
- Messages
- 257
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 18
- Ethnic group
- Albanian - Dinaric
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- Pre-Adam
- mtDNA haplogroup
- Pre-Eva
I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.
If it continue, then Eupedia, will become a stupid page like Stormfront (50% of stormfront is used to talk against Albanians).
If it continue, then Eupedia, will become a stupid page like Stormfront (50% of stormfront is used to talk against Albanians).
how yes no 2
Junior Member
- Messages
- 863
- Reaction score
- 3
- Points
- 0
I agree that thread is somewhat pointless...
while it is interesting to investigate linguistic connections with spread of haplogroups, that cannot be done properly by chosing two languages in isolation from other languages... to have any meaningful conclusion, words should be compared in many languages at same time...
- Status
This thread has been viewed 355745 times.