The Celts of Iberia

[Taranis]

1- E-Keltoi is really not a reliable source : how can they advance 3/4, majority..Bullshit. Celtic culture disappear southern of the Garonne river, it has no reason that it suddenly re-appears in Iberia, by magy...In "non-celtic" France too (southern of the Garonne river) , there was a Celtic print, but not enough to call them "Celtic peoples".
2 - Links between genetics and culture has never been proved. They are just extrapolations.

I disagree. If by "Celtic" culture disappearing south of the Garonne you mean "Gaulish" culture, this is correct, but the existence of Celtic presence in Iberia is solid. How do you explain the hundreds of Celtiberian inscriptions from the upper Ebro and Duero river areas? Celtiberian is, apart from Gaulish, the best-attested ancient Celtic language. Furthermore, Celtiberian is a Q-Celtic language (akin to Irish in that respect), which additionally shows archaisms that are absent in most other Celtic languages. If the Celtiberians had been recent immigrants, Celtiberian would have been P-Celtic and much closer to Gaulish, but it's clear that the Celtiberian language must have diverged from the other Celtic languages significantly earlier, meaning that the Celtiberians were definitely NOT recent immigrants. Below, an example of a Celtiberian inscription:

- In addition, we have the attestation of the Lusitanian language in the Tejo river area, which although scarcily attested was clearly an Indo-European (although not Celtic) language. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the Lusitanians represent an earlier wave of Indo-Europeans that arrived in the outmost West of Iberia before any Celtic-speaking people did.

- Gallaecia is interesting because it has a mixed Celtic/Lusitanian typonomy, suggesting a more recent Celtic influence over a Lusitanian substrate. In my opinion, Gallaecia is one of the few places on the Iberian penninsula where the "recent immigrants" notion might be applied, but nothing changes about the fact that this area was already firmly Indo-European.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, this is the right word (or maybe "borrow from", he he...). Galician seem to me very ridiculous when they try to mimic the Scottish or Breton folklore.

Ahh, the mountebank has returned from the clinic.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Iberia was defitively not Celtic in Antic times. Not more than the Russian peoples belonged to the mongol culture in late middle-age. Just military and aristocratic occupations, strong minorities or not. And all those rantings about genetics are just laughable.

Even I understand that it is hard to admit for some peoples.

Hey Grizz, are you OK? Everyone here with any knowledge of Celtic history, archaeology and linguistics is laughing at you. How much punishment can you take?

Dude, didn't you get the memo? You lost your insane "argument" weeks ago, when you started it.:useless:

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

+1..
i think they borrowed folcloric music from the north of europe, in order to hide their truth folclore influenced by the moors.

Another delusional third grader.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I disagree. If by "Celtic" culture disappearing south of the Garonne you mean "Gaulish" culture, this is correct, but the existence of Celtic presence in Iberia is solid. How do you explain the hundreds of Celtiberian inscriptions from the upper Ebro and Duero river areas? Celtiberian is, apart from Gaulish, the best-attested ancient Celtic language. Furthermore, Celtiberian is a Q-Celtic language (akin to Irish in that respect), which additionally shows archaisms that are absent in most other Celtic languages. If the Celtiberians had been recent immigrants, Celtiberian would have been P-Celtic and much closer to Gaulish, but it's clear that the Celtiberian language must have diverged from the other Celtic languages significantly earlier, meaning that the Celtiberians were definitely NOT recent immigrants. Below, an example of a Celtiberian inscription:

- In addition, we have the attestation of the Lusitanian language in the Tejo river area, which although scarcily attested was clearly an Indo-European (although not Celtic) language. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the Lusitanians represent an earlier wave of Indo-Europeans that arrived in the outmost West of Iberia before any Celtic-speaking people did.
- Gallaecia is interesting because it has a mixed Celtic/Lusitanian typonomy, suggesting a more recent Celtic influence over a Lusitanian substrate. In my opinion, Gallaecia is one of the few places on the Iberian penninsula where the "recent immigrants" notion might be applied, but nothing changes about the fact that this area was already firmly Indo-European.

My friend, people like Grizzly are not interested in the scientific and historical facts. They are insecure characters in deep denial and consturct alternative worlds in order to cope. Quite sad. :useless:

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

+1..
i think they borrowed folcloric music from the north of europe, in order to hide their truth folclore influenced by the moors.

...and a social psychologist too. How's the snake oil these days?

 

[Carlitos]

Should have drawn his avatar Rio Carnival.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

All right ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, time to put things to bed...

It seems there are some out-of-balance cynics posting on here and a few other threads who are having an extraordinarily difficult time dealing with certain scientific and historical realities, regarding Iberian Celticity.

Let's take stock:

1) One person contributing on this thread claims that e-Keltoi is not a "reliable" source for Celtic research.

Here are the facts:

a) E-Keltoi is part of the University of Wisconsin. The school's Celtic studies program is well-known and highly respected globally.

b) E-Keltoi produces thorough compilations and reviews of Celtic research published over time, with frequent updates. Primarily, it presents well-defined research and professional conclusions arrived at by Celtic scholars throughout the world. The sources used are peer reviewed and accepted research papers containing key facts that have been thoroughly validated. Contributors are experts in their field(s) and represent some of the finest universities in the world.

c) Each of e-Keltoi's monographs include a large body of academic and scientific references, lending strong support to any theories, opinions or hypotheses proffered.

2) Some people have suggested there is no evidence buttressing substantial Celticity in Iberia.

The facts:

a) Since the time of the ancient Greeks, Celtic settlements / societies were known to have existed in Iberia. The Greek historian, Herodotus, wrote that the Keltoi (Celts) "live beyond the Pillars of Hercules [Straights of Gibraltar] and border the Cynetes who are the westernmost inhabitants of Europe." (trans. Freeman in Koch & Cary 2003, 5). Obviously, Herodotus was referring to what is now S. Portugal and SW Spain. Furthermore, Strabo, another classical writer, clearly described the peoples of central-north and northwestern Iberia as having a Celtic culture substantially similar to the tribes of neighboring Gaul.

b) Iberia has the third highest level of Celtic toponym frequencies, after France and Great Britain (Sims-Williams, 2006).

c) Celtic and Celtic impacted languages were spoken throughout much of Iberia. These were: Celtiberian, one of the best-attested Celtic languages. Gallaic, spoken in ancient Gallaecia (Galicia and N. Portugal) and very possibly north-central Portugal. The Celtic of the south, which was, at least in some regions, over Tartessian (possibly Celtic influenced) and, lastly, Lusitanian. The latter is generally not considered as true Celtic (exceptions being Untermann, 1987 and Anderson, 1985) but Para-Celtic or possibly Proto-Celtic. In any case, Lusitanian has significant Celtic influences.

d) Recent historical demographic research reveals that 40% of Iberia's population at one time was Celtiberian (see references given by Wilhelm on this thread). Only the tribes present in the center and center-east of the Iberian Peninsula were taken into account in the analytical process. Celtic peoples in the western regions have been estimated in the range of 30 to 35% of total Peninsula inhabitants. This, in combination with numerous other considerations, clearly demonstrates high Celtic settlement saturation in Iberia. At one time, possibly 75% of Iberia's entire population was comprised of Celts, with the remaining 25% consisting of mostly Iberians.

What I have discussed above is merely starter material. There is also a major and growing archaeological record which confirms very considerable and enduring Celticity in the Iberian Peninsula. Read people like Cunliffe (2010), Guerra (1999, 2010), Alberro (2004), and many others. The field is rich with detailed research.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I disagree. If by "Celtic" culture disappearing south of the Garonne you mean "Gaulish" culture, this is correct, but the existence of Celtic presence in Iberia is solid. How do you explain the hundreds of Celtiberian inscriptions from the upper Ebro and Duero river areas? Celtiberian is, apart from Gaulish, the best-attested ancient Celtic language. Furthermore, Celtiberian is a Q-Celtic language (akin to Irish in that respect), which additionally shows archaisms that are absent in most other Celtic languages. If the Celtiberians had been recent immigrants, Celtiberian would have been P-Celtic and much closer to Gaulish, but it's clear that the Celtiberian language must have diverged from the other Celtic languages significantly earlier, meaning that the Celtiberians were definitely NOT recent immigrants. Below, an example of a Celtiberian inscription:

- In addition, we have the attestation of the Lusitanian language in the Tejo river area, which although scarcily attested was clearly an Indo-European (although not Celtic) language. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that the Lusitanians represent an earlier wave of Indo-Europeans that arrived in the outmost West of Iberia before any Celtic-speaking people did.
- Gallaecia is interesting because it has a mixed Celtic/Lusitanian typonomy, suggesting a more recent Celtic influence over a Lusitanian substrate. In my opinion, Gallaecia is one of the few places on the Iberian penninsula where the "recent immigrants" notion might be applied, but nothing changes about the fact that this area was already firmly Indo-European.

Regarding this post and some points raised in our previous discussions, I would like to contribute further as regards the Celtic languages of Western Iberia.

It seems clear from a review of the literature that personal names, god names, ethnonyms and place names contained not only Celtic structures but Lusitanian and possibly other IE features (predating Lusitanian?) as well. A number of the personal names are unmistakably Gaulish (e.g., Camalus), Untermann (1985) and Albertos (1985), while others reveal a Lusitanian / Celtic blend. The majority, however, are either Celtic or show a strong Celtic footprint. A few names are actually Celtiberian in origin, suggesting some level of migration from Central Iberia. Many of the deities certainly were Celtic and most appear to have been shared by Gallaecians and Lusitanians alike (E.R.L. Martinez, 2006). There are also indications of Celtic phonetic "infection" in Lusitanian onomastics (Lujan, 2007).

It may be that Celtic languages first spread to Gallaecia through Celtici (SW Iberia) relocation. Strabo (III. 3.5) wrote that the Gallaecian Celts were in some way related to the Celtici, who originally settled in what is now the Algarve, Alentejo and SW Andalusia. However, some clues point to eastern (Gaulish, Celtiberian) effects as well.

 

[Brady]

moors were in the iberian peninsula for 800 years, and they weren't totally undefeated until 1492... when were the celtics supposed to be in iberia? before the roman empire?

you can't expect anyone to believe that iberians have more of celtic origin than of magrebian.

I've learned that celtiberians were exterminated by romans in numancia this event was decribed in celtiberian wars thus genetic theory of spaniard celticism doesn't have any valid support. Sorry. Well just as a cultural represented by ancient wreckage at the most.

 

[sparkey]

I've learned that celtiberians were exterminated by romans in numancia this event was decribed in celtiberian wars thus genetic theory of spaniard celticism doesn't have any valid support. Sorry. Well just as a cultural represented by ancient wreckage at the most.

Not all Celtiberians lived in Numantia. In fact, the aforementioned Botorrita plaques in the Celtiberian language were inscribed after (circa 90BCE) the siege of Numantia ended (133BCE).

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The Celtiberians were hardly exterminated by the Romans. Some people really have serious issues. Give it up already...

 

[Canek]

brady is right

and not only the romans, the iberian peninsula have been raped almost by everyone... IF there have ever been celts in there, its very unlikely that there is anything celtic left.

 

[sparkey]

brady is right

and not only the romans, the iberian peninsula have been raped almost by everyone... IF there have ever been celts in there, its very unlikely that there is anything celtic left.

Well, he is flatly not right about Celtiberians being totally exterminated during the siege of Numantia. There were still Celtiberians after the official end of the Celtiberian Wars, that's not really up for debate.

Has Celtic culture been significantly damaged throughout the years in Iberia? No doubt... they've had their culture altered on the same scale as France. But they can still claim Celtic heritage, and there are active reconstructionist movements that have a lot to pull from.

 

[Triskel]

You're brady retarded wetback LOL

You're so ridiculous...

 

[Brady]

The Celtiberians were hardly exterminated by the Romans. Some people really have serious issues. Give it up already...

Well this was said by a spaniard history and geography expert specialized in Ancient History. Sorry again. "Algunos de los habitantes de Numancia prefirieron darse muerte entre sí, antes que rendirse a los romanos. De los rendidos Escipión se guardó 50 para que le acompañasen en su triunfo a Roma y el resto los vendió como esclavos. También Escipión castigó duramente a las ciudades cercanas que parecían colaboracionistas y finalmente arrasó completamente la ciudad de Numancia, sin esperar la decisión final del Senado" Julián Hurtado Aguña es Doctor en Geografía e Historia en su especialidad de "Historia Antigua" por la Universidad de Salamanca aprobando en el año 2000 su tesis doctoral con Sobrealiente Cum Laude. http://www.arturosoria.com/historia/art/numancia.asp

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Well, he is flatly not right about Celtiberians being totally exterminated during the siege of Numantia. There were still Celtiberians after the official end of the Celtiberian Wars, that's not really up for debate.

Has Celtic culture been significantly damaged throughout the years in Iberia? No doubt... they've had their culture altered on the same scale as France. But they can still claim Celtic heritage, and there are active reconstructionist movements that have a lot to pull from.

Absolutely correct on all counts.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

You're brady retarded wetback LOL

You're so ridiculous...

"Ridiculous" is too kind...

 

[Brady]

"Ridiculous" is too kind...

Well this was said by a spaniard history and geography expert specialized in Ancient History. Sorry again. "Algunos de los habitantes de Numancia prefirieron darse muerte entre sí, antes que rendirse a los romanos. De los rendidos Escipión se guardó 50 para que le acompañasen en su triunfo a Roma y el resto los vendió como esclavos. También Escipión castigó duramente a las ciudades cercanas que parecían colaboracionistas y finalmente arrasó completamente la ciudad de Numancia, sin esperar la decisión final del Senado" Julián Hurtado Aguña es Doctor en Geografía e Historia en su especialidad de "Historia Antigua" por la Universidad de Salamanca aprobando en el año 2000 su tesis doctoral con Sobrealiente Cum Laude. http://www.arturosoria.com/historia/art/numancia.asp well if this well educated spaniard guy is "ridiculous"...it's alright...is your fellow countryman. SORRY.

 

[spongetaro]

As I pointed out earlier, Celts of Iberia were hardly similar genetically to those of the craddle of Celtic civilization (Southern Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Eastern France)