Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Bodin]

Come now, that doesn't follow. Russian haplogroup N clearly has its highest frequencies in Northern Russia, and Russian I2a-Din has its highest frequencies in Southern Russia. Even if we don't think of I2a-Din levels in the Balkans as a case of genetic drift (which it almost certainly is), then at least we would expect the Slavs who came to the Balkans to have been from the Southern area of Slavic extent. That is, they would have been the Slavs who had more I2a-Din than N.

Yes N is from Finns and I2a1b is from Sarmathians , again there is no archeological evidence of significant Slavic settlement on Balkans , again Slavic R1a is also strongest on south of Russia - where is it on Balkans ? - only 5% in serbians

 

[Bodin]

And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.



Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?

Yes third of Croatia is R1a but you forgeting 1/3 of today Croatia is SLAVONIA - and that land was part of Avar Khaganate and whole of Khaganate was intensivly settled by Slavs - Slovenia , Slovakia , Slavonia ( do names say something to you ?) , Balathon principality ,...
Why would Sarmathians be R1a - based on what?

 

[Bodin]

What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?

Scythians were definetly R1a ( over 90% of excavated graves) , they also could have N and Q
I believe Sarmathians were I2a1b , some others believe it was R1a , and I dont undertand why

 

[Bodin]

I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...h0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

No I2a1b was not on Balkans before VI century ( settling of Serbs and Croats ) , if it was there . then what haplogroups were carryed by settlers? There would be only about 10% settlers and 90% aboriginal population which is highly unlikely . There is no strong R1a in any Balkan population - most of R1a on Balkans is not Slavic ( 3.500 years old ) but ancient - Illyrian R1a ( 10.000 years old ) . Only Croatians and Slovenians have significant R1a - Slovenians are descendants of Slavs settled by Avars , and later mixed with Croatians and Croatian North province of Slavonia was also part of Avar state ( not Croatian ) during settling , and was also settled by Slavs ( look at name of province ) . Also Croatian R1a is not determined so we dont know how much of it is Slavic ( Z93-), and how much Avaric R1a ( Z93+).
Where did you find there was C* in Scythian graves , I never hierd of it . Acording to my data C was brought in Central Asia by Mongols

 

[Bodin]

Agreed that it is speculation, I could be getting thrown by an apparent higher diversity in I2a-Din-N vs. I2a-Din-S that isn't really there. But provided it holds, my best guess is Milograd culture, or something similar that was outside what the Romans knew. How yes no is fond of the Veneti, which I think may be more likely than the Dacians.

Veneti are most probably ancestors of Balts - and there is very low I2a1b in them , Lietuva 1% and Lithuania 6% ( they have legend about Sarmathian origin of they nobility )

 

[Bodin]

I have not read it fully, but if I'm not mistaken, it only talks about deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA), there's no autosomal study in it, and as far as what it says, it looks like it agrees with what I say in terms of Y-DNA ancestry:



Though if you wanna talk based on mtDNA, the Kurds and Persians don't exactly match very well with one another in that respect:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2265662/table/TB2/

But wat is meaning of : " North Ossetians are more simillar to North Caucasus populations and south ... to south... " - they are same nation so only answer is that male lineages were very much replaced

 

[Bodin]

I'm not up to nothing, it's a discussion and there are facts from sources going around, if you want to sit there and discuss with respect based on evidence, be my guest, but if you wanna start pointing fingers again and getting paranoid, don't bother talking to me.

Listen, the data is right there, I was not the one who collected it nor was I the one who published it, if you have a problem with the facts, I don't know what to tell you, but in the end of the day, facts are facts, whether we like them or not, it does not change anything, there's the mtDNA chart in front of you, compare the Kurds and Persians then ask yourself this question, do they match? If it bothers you that much, stop discussing this subject and leave genetic topics alone.

And again you are twisting the facts - this study is about ALL Persians , and Kurds are simillar to WEST Persians . Man , Medes crushed Assyrian empire over 2.500 years ago , get over it . You are realy paranoid - disregarding any evidence , inventing the facts , Iranian words , saying that I2a1b is from Balkans without any prove , but you dont need a prove - you believe it is the truth

 

[Bodin]

Yes, Y-DNA/mtDNA does not connect populations, it only shows you the deep ancestry, by deep ancestry I'm talking about tracing the route out of our ancestral land in Africa, autosomal DNA is the only way to connect populations.

I also agree that the Europeans are not Aryans (Despite how many of them wrongly use the term), the term was coined by Indo-European speakers from Asia, so yes, Kurds, Persians, Pashtuns, North Indians, etc are Aryans, while Germans, Dutch, French, Greeks, etc are not.

Have you hierd for Vandalic tribe Haria ( Hazdingi ) , or for Frankic tribe Ripuarians , Roman name Arian, Ossetian is egzonim , they call themeselves Iron . Arya ( sanscrit ) noble one , elevated one ,... It i term used in all IE languagues , and I allready explained that to you , but you seem to have realy short memory

 

[Bodin]

My apologies if you already know this, but I just can't resist =)) The last European Aryan probably died with the last self-conscious Alan. This is because in the Iranic language of the Alans -l- regularly substituted -ri-/-ry- So "Alan" was simply the Alanic pronunciation of "Aryan".

No that is not the truth Alan was egzonim , and it means " one that lives in steppes" .

 

[Cobol19]

What intrermarry in tribe ? South Ossetians are geneticaly more similar to South Caucasian group , and North Ossetians to North Caucasian groups , so they werent intermary in tribe but with neighboring nations - sims you are not realy versed in genetics
What Iranian languague - one that you just invented ? Greek : A - no , without + mazos - brest - by the legends they use to cut off one of they brests so they could easily use bow

Bodin, I don't think you understand what tribal culture is like nor do you know what people intermarrying within a tribe means, I'm not gonna baby-step you through it, when people within the same tribe intermarry, one lineage usually comes off too high, in the case of Ossetian groups, G2a seems like that lineage, it's due to a genetic drift, if you don't understand that, it's not my problem.

No I2a1b was not on Balkans before VI century ( settling of Serbs and Croats ) , if it was there . then what haplogroups were carryed by settlers? There would be only about 10% settlers and 90% aboriginal population which is highly unlikely . There is no strong R1a in any Balkan population - most of R1a on Balkans is not Slavic ( 3.500 years old ) but ancient - Illyrian R1a ( 10.000 years old ) . Only Croatians and Slovenians have significant R1a - Slovenians are descendants of Slavs settled by Avars , and later mixed with Croatians and Croatian North province of Slavonia was also part of Avar state ( not Croatian ) during settling , and was also settled by Slavs ( look at name of province ) .

Nobody cares about Serbians and Croatians in this subject, they're irrelevant, as far as I know, they speak a Slavic language and they carry Southeast European genes for most part, unless they find "Ancient DNA" for Scythians/Sarmatians carrying haplogroup I2a, you have no argument here, so stop wasting your breath on this useless argument.

Also Croatian R1a is not determined so we dont know how much of it is Slavic ( Z93-), and how much Avaric R1a ( Z93+).

Soon we'll find out, don't worry.

Where did you find there was C* in Scythian graves , I never hierd of it . Acording to my data C was brought in Central Asia by Mongols

The C was carried among the Andronovo culture (Kurgan culture / Proto-Indo-Iranians):

Have you hierd for Vandalic tribe Haria ( Hazdingi ) , or for Frankic tribe Ripuarians , Roman name Arian, Ossetian is egzonim , they call themeselves Iron . Arya ( sanscrit ) noble one , elevated one ,... It i term used in all IE languagues , and I allready explained that to you , but you seem to have realy short memory

I don't even understand this, the English is very bad.

And again you are twisting the facts - this study is about ALL Persians , and Kurds are simillar to WEST Persians . Man , Medes crushed Assyrian empire over 2.500 years ago , get over it . You are realy paranoid - disregarding any evidence , inventing the facts , Iranian words , saying that I2a1b is from Balkans without any prove , but you dont need a prove - you believe it is the truth

What does I2a1b have to do with Medes crushing the Assyrians? This is stupid and has nothing to do with anything, well, Medes and Chaldeans crushed the Assyrians, the Persians crushed the Medes and Chaldeans, the Macedonians/Greeks crushed the Persians, etc, we can go on and on, but unless you have evidence that I2a1b existed among ancient Iranians, your arguments are useless and you have no point, and when I say evidence, I mean "Ancient DNA" studies, is there any ancient DNA of I2a1b found among ancient Iranians? If not, please stop repeating yourself.

 

[Ivan]

Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

For the part I am concerned, and that is your subsequent use of the word rape, I have not seen any hint about it there, nor the evidence about wars between male population that are connected with G haplogroup being so high among Ossetians.

That is just your explanation of how this happened, where you have tried to copy the behavior of Balkan nations on the Caucasus. And it is not so applicable as one might think. Yes there were some atrocities, but just on the borderline, and those were of a newer date, when Stalins deportations, new borders, alongside with destroying the code of honor which was previosly respected for ages, led to wars. And those atrocities did not change population genetics. Most of the time people of the Caucasus lived alongside each other respecting each others living space, surely, once the first skirmishes have passed. Mountain code of honor and laws were much more strict than todays laws and values they are trying to protect.

Actually I dont believe at all that there were so much wars and let alone that these alleged wars lasted so long that they completely changed the genetics in favor of one particular group. I just went along your theory and tried to explain that what you saw on Balkan is not a copy paste situation.

Here you just needed something for your theory to work, so you thought of wars, rapes, killing, atrocities. But, it would be like if wars on Balkans led to some radical change in population genetics. This did not happen.

Actually the populations became more ethnically clean because of deportations, and genetics was not changed so much at all, but the core was rather strengtened. This might sound strange but the real changes happen in time of peace, and this you can copy paste everywhere. In 50 years of peace population of Yugoslavia became much more intermingled, and that subsequently and unfortunately led to wars and atrocties, and those, as much as it might sound surprising to you, did not change the core of population in the way you tried to explain.

What I was saying was that you do not need rape and wars to explain your theory. There is genetic drift that by itself is enough to explain the high G.

 

[Cobol19]

Hier is one of them:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15598217
I would recomend Cobolt to read it ot - it say north Ossetian mthDNA is closer to west Iranian than to Caucasus mthDNA

You do realize that mtDNA and Y-DNA don't tell the whole story nor do they make populations closer to one another right? If I was to say certain groups are closer to one another because they carry a certain haplogroup, the majority of the British population that carry R1b are closer to African people from Cameroon than they are to Russians, Ukrainians, Serbians, etc, would you agree with that?

 

[razor]

No that is not the truth Alan was egzonim , and it means " one that lives in steppes" .

Not for linguistic science it isn't. They're not interested in popular etymologies. There's a lot of those around. Yours reminds me of a more famous one: Ihumen Sylvester's interpretation of "Poljani" in the Kyivan Primary Chronicle as "inhabitants of the steppes". It's actually the alanized version of the original Scythian ethnonym "Poli" (as recorded in Diodorus).

 

[Ivan]

##########

 

[Goga]

They could be a Georgian tribe in terms of genes, also their geographic location is speaking in favor of that, and the language and culture could be adopted. They lived on south Caucasian slopes in Georgia, but still, it was high in mountains, where they were much more connected to North Ossetians and their culture.

This brings to my mind an unfortunate dispute between Georgia an North Ossetia. If this research is true and if I am not mistaking, they both have something to claim.

Politicians will ultimately decide what is better suited for statehood, whether cultural or ethnic affiliation.

I sincerely hope they will find some common ground soon in the interest of Caucasus people.

No, you're making a mistake. Only in terms of Y-DNA Ossetians are closer to Caucasian people. But in terms of their mtDNA and deep ancestral they're closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds.

There's only 750,000 Ossetians, but at least 40,000,000 Kurds.

This means that they're Iranic people (tribe) with Iranic roots but mixed with the folks in the Caucasus. But this doesn't mean anything because West Iranic folks and Caucasian folks share the same origin at the first place.


And Georgia has some disputes with South Ossetia...

 

[Cobol19]

No, you're making a mistake. Only in terms of Y-DNA Ossetians are closer to Caucasian people. But in terms of their mtDNA and deep ancestral they're closer to their West Iranic big brothers Kurds.

This means that they're Iranic people (tribe) with Iranic roots but mixed with the folks in the Caucasus. But this doesn't mean anything because West Iranic folks and Caucasian folks share the same origin at the first place.

Just a note, both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA are deep ancestry.

 

[Goga]

Just a note, both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA are deep ancestry.

Ok, thanks! But I mean deep ancestry in general.

 

[Cobol19]

Ok, thanks! But I mean deep ancestry in general.

When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.

 

[Goga]

When you mean deep ancestry in general, that includes both of the Y-DNA and mtDNA, I should keep reminding you and others that comparing Y-DNA/mtDNA between populations is not a sure thing, the only way to compare populations and determine their closeness is by their autosomal DNA (That's how Dienekes compares people in his project), the reason for that is because your Y-DNA/mtDNA are only 2 lines out of thousands and thousands of ancestors, let's take a simple example:

You = 1
Your parents = 2
Grandparents = 4
Great Grandparents = 8
Great Great Grandparents = 16
Great Great Great Grandparents = 32
Great Great Great Great Grandparents = 64
So on.

Your Y-DNA/mtDNA only represents 2 lines, this is not enough to determine what you are, for instance you could be a pure Mongolian looking person living in the steppes of Mongolia, but your Y-DNA could be R1b, does that makes you Mongolian or Western European? Mongolian of course, because the majority of your ancestors are Mongolians despite your non-Mongolian paternal lineage.

True, and I do absolutely agree with you.

But my point is that the DNA of Ossetians IS actually Iranic and that they're not only Iranic by their language. Also, there's a genetic link between all West Iranic speakers in West Asia. So this means that West Iranic folks were and still are the same separated group, like 2500-5000 years ago. And that they're actually still connected to the ancient Iranic (Aryan) folks in the past, like the Alanians, Medes and Persians. They still carry their ancient Iranic genes...

 

[Alan]

Once again I will not speak about the Ossetians because I don't have an Ossetian sample to compare with, but here are the few Indo-Iranian groups that have been studied by Dienekes:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...owN3M3UWRyNnc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0

The Kurds and Iranians (Persians for most part) are most closely related to one another, and both populations resemble other West Asian populations for most part, by west Asian, I mean Armenians, Anatolian Turks, and Assyrians rather than Caucasian populations.

Where the Kurds and Iranians differ from other West Asian populations is by their South Asian value, this value is also extremely high among Indo-Iranian populations living in South-Central Asia such as the Pathans, Baloch, and Kalash, this means there must have been some genetic wave from South-Central Asia to West Asia which likely brought the Iranian languages, and while the Kurds and Persians for most part are indeed natives to the lands they live on today, they must have been mixed with these Iranian tribes that left their language and some genetic imprint among the modern West Iranian groups.

You are twisting things up a little bit. Dienekes samples are mainly limited to Iraqi Kurds and some 23andme samples which again are mainly from Iraq and Iran. Your statement ist wrong. Kurds and Iranians are not the same, they only share a similar genetic structure based on their Iranic heritage but there is still a considerable difference. I will take Dienekes Iraqi Kurdish samples as example. The similarities are between both Iraqi Kurds and Iranians higher South(central) Asian ANI as well West/East European in compare to Assyrians. However the difference between Iraqi Kurds and Iranians is more Mediterranean in I. Kurds, a bit less West Asian but at the same time a bit more East/West European than Iranians. This are indeed as much differences as there are similarities.